6 ms·

I think a common flaw in these kinds of bold statements is the use of the phrase “The West”. There exists a multitude of different nations, each with different

I think a common flaw in these kinds of bold statements is the use of the phrase “The West”. There exists a multitude of different nations, each with different political structures and vastly different social opinions but, most importantly, different national objectives vested in China. The idea that business from the USA, UK, and, other nations in the West all “wanted democracy” is blatantly not true. They wanted profit and success via the penetration of a huge potential market. Democracy? No, fair treatment. The idea that the general public wanted a democracy in China is silly also. Most people are exposed to a very warped viewpoint of China, and I would argue, all people want is that their nation remains great, their jobs remain stable and their economic future is secure. Most average people I speak to (UK) still ask if if people eat dog meat and proclaim China is communist. The strongest case for “wanting democracy” is most likely in the political sphere for western nations. The strength of cooperative democratic governments is weakened when an outside nation is playing by its own rules, gaining advantages that members could be envious of. Having lived in China and having Chinese as my second language, I find recent events deeply troubling. The recent US-Taiwan travel agreement and new campaign for a referendum vote for independence on the 6th April is just adding to the anxiety. It’s an uncertain time, but I certainly agree that clear and hard rulings need to be made to ensure fairness between trading nations.

manmal 9y ago
> Most average people I speak to (UK) still ask if if people eat dog meat and proclaim China is communist. What do you answer? We have a saying in Austria that Chinese eat everything that throws a shadow (I don’t approve of this, just recount), and I as an uninformed person don’t know what to call it instead of communism (sure, not the traditional kind).
- fwdpropaganda 9y ago
  > don’t know what to call it instead of communism I would describe China's economy system as capitalism. There is however the caveat that the government has a history with interfering with private ownership to pursue its interests, and their law has a history of approving that. This is different from e.g. the USA where the law is very propetive of private ownership and the law usually sides with it against the government. I would say that with respect to this metric Russia and the EU are somewhere in between.
- duncanawoods 9y ago
  That's pretty funny. I think its ok to let yourself approve - just make sure you have banter about every nationality's cuisine. I was eating with a Chinese client who at various times had served dishes like donkey and tree frog, and I really couldn't tell what I was eating but it sure was unusual. I asked what it was and the client chewed his food, paused thoughtfully for a minute and then reported "I think it is some type of meat". If I have ever eaten something furry that we keep as pets, that might have been the time.
- jpatokal 9y ago
  FWIW, the Cantonese themselves say they eat anything with four legs except tables, anything that flies except planes, and anything that swims except submarines.
- cmplxconjugate 9y ago
  I reply with what I saw and discussed with natives: Typically dog meat consumption is isolated to smaller cities or rural areas. Older generations are more comfortable eating dog meat and younger generations (especially educated individuals) dislike it. Consumption is mostly a factor of social economic status. Anecdotally, while admittedly I most worked in a single city, I did take time to travel to a number of different cities/provinces and not once did I ever see a 狗肉饭馆 (Dog meat restaurant). Actually, if you permit me to give a personal opinion: I find it quite strange that we bias one animal over another for consumption (cow vs dog). I understand the moral connection to pets, but it seems slightly illogical to have one be taboo other the other for consumption. After all they are both animals. Also, it’s interesting that in the UK people turn their nose up at offal, when it seems like a more total and efficient usage of an animals meat. I’m vegetarian though (which was a complete nightmare in China).
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    Have you ever been to the Miao areas of china before? Dog meat is pretty ubiquitous in those places. Like, many westerners visit Guilin, and it’s very easy to run into dog meat there.
- snovv_crash 9y ago
  My grandfather told stories of his visits to China and had a similar saying, apparently told to him by the Chinese. "Anything with legs except furniture, anything that swims except a ship, anything that flies except an airplane."
- herbst 9y ago
  Just dropping this here was well. Some areas in switzerland have dog meat on the menu. My point is that we apply questionable moral rules to differenciate us from 'the others'
  - manmal 9y ago
    Not only dogs, but also cats. I was quite shocked when I first heard what‘s going on in our neighbor country :)
- gnode 9y ago
  > what to call it instead of communism Authoritarian is the most valid label. It has a mixed market economy, which the government claim is the necessary first stage in their long term goal of socialism.
not_kurt_godel 9y ago
> ask if if people eat dog meat If southern China is anything like northern Vietnam, which I have been led to believe it is, then dog meat consumption is widespread - I have seen it with my own eyes. According to Wikipedia, 20 million dogs are killed in China for consumption per year: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_meat#Mainland_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_meat#Mainland_China Most people, including myself, find the idea of eating dog meat abhorrent, and yet it is a cultural norm in China. 10,000 people were killed in Tiananmen Square in 1989, and many of them were deliberately squished into mush by tanks. The thought of that happening in the West is beyond the scope of my imagination. Chinese people live in a world of brutal, ruthless dictatorship that will literally grind them to mush under tank treads by the thousands if they protest. To act as if finding that supremely unappealing and objectionable is "warped" is delusional.
- brann0 9y ago
  10000 casualities is the worst estimation around. Not saying it's false, it's just an estimation. Red Cross estimated ~2500 deceased while Chinese government numbers were below 1000. The number of injuried people was very high also. And the arrests afterwards were numerous, too.
- sho 9y ago
  > 10,000 people were killed in Tiananmen Square in 1989, and many of them were deliberately squished into mush by tanks Be aware that that is the highest end of a very contested range of estimates. While I by no means believe the governmental estimate of "0-300", 10,000 is so huge I personally find it hard to believe. As always the truth is probably somewhere in between. I personally believe the number was probably between 500 and 1,000 dead. It was a brutal repression of a student protest, not an extermination.
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    It could be in between, it could be much worse. There was no way in estimating very accurately, so we shouldn’t just take the middle as the truth. Besides, most of the casualties occurred outside of the square when the city basically rioted, and it was in the government’s interest not to count bodies.
room271 9y ago
Which 'average' people in the UK are you talking about? The vast majority of the people I know don't think of China in those terms. And they may call China communist but what they really mean is non-democratic rather than a comment on the market. (The term 'communist' is somewhat overloaded in everyday talk.) And I don't meet many people at all in the UK who want their nation to remain 'great'. That's a very foreign sentiment to us - patriotism doesn't sit that comfortably. They probably do want a good life for themselves and others though. Lastly, I think you're a bit too cynical on people actually wanting democracy for China. I think a lot of people do genuinely want this for altruistic, but also selfish reasons.

manmal 9y ago

> Most average people I speak to (UK) still ask if if people eat dog meat and proclaim China is communist. What do you answer? We have a saying in Austria that Chinese eat everything that throws a shadow (I don’t approve of this, just recount), and I as an uninformed person don’t know what to call it instead of communism (sure, not the traditional kind).

fwdpropaganda 9y ago
> don’t know what to call it instead of communism I would describe China's economy system as capitalism. There is however the caveat that the government has a history with interfering with private ownership to pursue its interests, and their law has a history of approving that. This is different from e.g. the USA where the law is very propetive of private ownership and the law usually sides with it against the government. I would say that with respect to this metric Russia and the EU are somewhere in between.
duncanawoods 9y ago
That's pretty funny. I think its ok to let yourself approve - just make sure you have banter about every nationality's cuisine. I was eating with a Chinese client who at various times had served dishes like donkey and tree frog, and I really couldn't tell what I was eating but it sure was unusual. I asked what it was and the client chewed his food, paused thoughtfully for a minute and then reported "I think it is some type of meat". If I have ever eaten something furry that we keep as pets, that might have been the time.
jpatokal 9y ago
FWIW, the Cantonese themselves say they eat anything with four legs except tables, anything that flies except planes, and anything that swims except submarines.
cmplxconjugate 9y ago
I reply with what I saw and discussed with natives: Typically dog meat consumption is isolated to smaller cities or rural areas. Older generations are more comfortable eating dog meat and younger generations (especially educated individuals) dislike it. Consumption is mostly a factor of social economic status. Anecdotally, while admittedly I most worked in a single city, I did take time to travel to a number of different cities/provinces and not once did I ever see a 狗肉饭馆 (Dog meat restaurant). Actually, if you permit me to give a personal opinion: I find it quite strange that we bias one animal over another for consumption (cow vs dog). I understand the moral connection to pets, but it seems slightly illogical to have one be taboo other the other for consumption. After all they are both animals. Also, it’s interesting that in the UK people turn their nose up at offal, when it seems like a more total and efficient usage of an animals meat. I’m vegetarian though (which was a complete nightmare in China).
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  Have you ever been to the Miao areas of china before? Dog meat is pretty ubiquitous in those places. Like, many westerners visit Guilin, and it’s very easy to run into dog meat there.
snovv_crash 9y ago
My grandfather told stories of his visits to China and had a similar saying, apparently told to him by the Chinese. "Anything with legs except furniture, anything that swims except a ship, anything that flies except an airplane."
herbst 9y ago
Just dropping this here was well. Some areas in switzerland have dog meat on the menu. My point is that we apply questionable moral rules to differenciate us from 'the others'
- manmal 9y ago
  Not only dogs, but also cats. I was quite shocked when I first heard what‘s going on in our neighbor country :)
gnode 9y ago
> what to call it instead of communism Authoritarian is the most valid label. It has a mixed market economy, which the government claim is the necessary first stage in their long term goal of socialism.

not_kurt_godel 9y ago

> ask if if people eat dog meat If southern China is anything like northern Vietnam, which I have been led to believe it is, then dog meat consumption is widespread - I have seen it with my own eyes. According to Wikipedia, 20 million dogs are killed in China for consumption per year: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_meat#Mainland_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_meat#Mainland_China Most people, including myself, find the idea of eating dog meat abhorrent, and yet it is a cultural norm in China. 10,000 people were killed in Tiananmen Square in 1989, and many of them were deliberately squished into mush by tanks. The thought of that happening in the West is beyond the scope of my imagination. Chinese people live in a world of brutal, ruthless dictatorship that will literally grind them to mush under tank treads by the thousands if they protest. To act as if finding that supremely unappealing and objectionable is "warped" is delusional.

brann0 9y ago
10000 casualities is the worst estimation around. Not saying it's false, it's just an estimation. Red Cross estimated ~2500 deceased while Chinese government numbers were below 1000. The number of injuried people was very high also. And the arrests afterwards were numerous, too.
sho 9y ago
> 10,000 people were killed in Tiananmen Square in 1989, and many of them were deliberately squished into mush by tanks Be aware that that is the highest end of a very contested range of estimates. While I by no means believe the governmental estimate of "0-300", 10,000 is so huge I personally find it hard to believe. As always the truth is probably somewhere in between. I personally believe the number was probably between 500 and 1,000 dead. It was a brutal repression of a student protest, not an extermination.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  It could be in between, it could be much worse. There was no way in estimating very accurately, so we shouldn’t just take the middle as the truth. Besides, most of the casualties occurred outside of the square when the city basically rioted, and it was in the government’s interest not to count bodies.

room271 9y ago

Which 'average' people in the UK are you talking about? The vast majority of the people I know don't think of China in those terms. And they may call China communist but what they really mean is non-democratic rather than a comment on the market. (The term 'communist' is somewhat overloaded in everyday talk.) And I don't meet many people at all in the UK who want their nation to remain 'great'. That's a very foreign sentiment to us - patriotism doesn't sit that comfortably. They probably do want a good life for themselves and others though. Lastly, I think you're a bit too cynical on people actually wanting democracy for China. I think a lot of people do genuinely want this for altruistic, but also selfish reasons.