10 ms·

Agent on Demand – Job Offer Negotiation as a Service

152 points by gregsadetsky 9y ago

gregsadetsky 9y ago
I just wanted to add a testimonial & a bit of context about the above link. I've been on the 10x Management engineering roster for 5 years now, and they've always been stellar at finding clients and freelance gigs, negotiating and closing deals, etc. They recently expanded their "beta" testing of a new service they've rolled out called Agent on Demand (in short they help top engineers to negotiate their new, fulltime, employment contracts), and I was lucky enough to be one of the first people to benefit from their guidance during a hiring process. 10x played the roll of an advisor/mentor, guiding me in the negotiation -- on salary, benefits, figuring out what I wanted, etc. They were fantastic in this: instead of feeling like I was in the dark, not knowing what I could ask for, not being sure of my next move, I was coached into asking for the things I wanted (and/or that I didn't think I could get) and ended up very happy with the resulting package (PTO, clear definition of my role, etc.) Having an experienced "wingman" helps, tremendously...! If you've got a real job offer and want help negotiating it, I would recommend trying them out - and during this expanded beta period, the service is pay what you want, so it's quite reasonable to engage them. Happy to answer questions. Cheers
- tibbetts 9y ago
  What was the percentage impact on cash compensation between initial offer and outcome? Do you think the company hiring you went outside the range they originally planned, or did you/10x get them to change how they thought about the role/you?
  - gregsadetsky 9y ago
    Compensation was higher, but to me there was much more, just as the employer/employee relationship is... much more. Generally speaking, it "freaked me out" that this negotiation (happening at the very beginning of employment) would decide so many things going forward. The feeling of "this is my only chance" was weighing down on me. In using this service: - 10x both coached and represented me during the negotiations (reducing my stress) - they (10x) validated that I was getting a good deal in terms of compensation - it definitely changed the employer's perspective to see that I had an agent working on my behalf (they understood that I was taking this seriously) - benefits-wise, I received a generous PTO offer and remote work options that suited my travel plans
sbrother 9y ago
Another quick testimonial -- I've been working with Michael and Rishon at 10x for about two years ago, and these guys are fantastic. They supplement my own dealflow (which is purely word-of-mouth) with their own PR/marketing operation and network, and have brought me several clients I never would have had access to on my own. They help with rate negotiation, back-office chores like billing, and even collecting delinquent payments. I'm earning more than I was as an engineer at Google, and enjoying a much more flexible lifestyle. I highly recommend them.
- htormey 9y ago
  Could you talk a little bit more about your situation and how you work with these guys? I assume you are a contractor, can you tell us a little bit about your background and give us an example of how they helped you find work? Thanks.
  - sbrother 9y ago
    Absolutely, with the caveat that the service this link describes is different than the one they provide for me. I have an engineering background building machine learning/NLP services (think ad servers, chatbots, search engines etc), including at a few startups and on an ads quality team at Google (linkedin.com/in/sbrother). I had taken a few consulting gigs throughout my career, but I finally quit to pursue full time software consulting two years ago. At that point I signed up with 10x management in an effort to bring in leads to supplement those from my own network. They have a loose network of ~100 similar freelancers, running the whole gamut of software development niches. They do their best to match clients (that's us) with customers, but will send leads out over an email list if not sure. They'll set up the first meeting, and if that goes well they'll help with rate negotiation and later on billing. For all this they take 15% of each invoice. From my perspective it is a fantastic deal -- they helped negotiate my standard rate up by 75% and have brought in some very large contracts for me. Their business has helped me scale mine to the point I've been able to hire an employee and take some time off for "paternity leave" without losing my entire income stream. I highly recommend working with them if their services look useful to you.
zaphirplane 9y ago
How much do they charge
- gregsadetsky 9y ago
  During the extended beta period, they are "pay what you want". If you qualify, it's most definitely worth it.
ironix 9y ago
I see testimonies here in comments by freelancers who are using 10xmanagement to source work. This specific product posted here seems to be for something else: you have a gig lined up, but want to be represented. I appreciate the endorsements, but am now curious about the main product: how do I get on the 10xmanagement list of software engineers to be considered for gigs? I don't see a publicly visible way to apply. Is it really via referral only? If so, where do I go to find a referral? Luck? Research existing "10x developers" and get them to like me? What are the requirements to becoming a "10xer," aside from the potential for referral? EDIT: Ah, I did not read the FAQ: https://www.10xmanagement.com/faq/ https://www.10xmanagement.com/faq/ -- tl;dr as the response below suggests, probably need to contact them. As far as I can tell, they're basically operating as a standalone agency, so it's not much different than applying for a job interview anywhere else.
- YuriNiyazov 9y ago
  Just email them
- gregsadetsky 9y ago
  My other comment in this thread is not only a testimonial for the "main" 10x service, but also for this specific Agent on Demand one, which I've benefited from last year. See the 2nd paragraph [1]. > I appreciate the endorsements, but am now curious about the main product: how do I get on the 10xmanagement list of software engineers to be considered for gigs? There's a "Become a 10xer" button on the home page, right at the bottom. It links to this page [2]. Although I do not work for 10x, I am a very happy "client" (I'm a client since they represent me -- it still confuses me after 5 years). Feel free to email me with any questions! gs @ (my hn username).com [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16494681 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16494681 [2] http://info.10xmanagement.com/contact-us-become-10xer http://info.10xmanagement.com/contact-us-become-10xer
swissChoc 9y ago
Say, I am right now interviewing and about to get an offer, how to make them help me?
- gregsadetsky 9y ago
  Click the orange button :-) https://www.10xmanagement.com/agent-on-demand/ https://www.10xmanagement.com/agent-on-demand/
  - PenguinCoder 9y ago
    Looks like some error page for me: "We had some trouble loading this form. Click here to continue." Clicking results in another error "This form didn't load. Please try again later."
    - gregsadetsky 9y ago
      Are you running an ad blocker? I'm wondering if that might be interfering. Just loaded the form using the direct URL [1] and it worked fine. Try in an incognito window, just to make sure? [1] https://www.10xmanagement.com/agent-on-demand/ https://www.10xmanagement.com/agent-on-demand/
mtgex 9y ago
This suffers from the same issue with using a real estate agent to buy / sell a house. Agents are not financially incentivized to get you the best offer. They are financially incentivized for you to accept any offer, period. The extra commission on negotiating a higher offer does not justify the time and energy. Additionally, it increases the chances that either party will terminate the negotiation outright. Agents are not working for you, they are working on closing a deal and in fact the agent and the company they're selling you to have the exact same incentives. Get you in as quickly and as cheaply as possible. Negotiation is more about soft skills, charisma, information obfuscation, and outright lying than it is about fighting to get what you "deserve."
- chapill 9y ago
  None of that really applies to 10xmanagement specifically.
- d0lph 9y ago
  Couldn't you just rebalance the commission so the pay increase is the majority of the commission. Not saying the current situation isn't messed up, but there is no reason it couldn't be fixed.
  - mtgex 9y ago
    Yeah I can see that, although in that case you do need to prove to your agent what you were making before, and if they feel it's not worth their time they will be more likely to pass on working with you. But that's a whole paradigm shift in thinking about agency, and they're perfectly happy with how things operate currently. They would have to spend a lot more time actually negotiating. In the case of real estate, the idea that you absolutely need to work with an agent is so entrenched that it's very difficult to get anyone to consider the alternative outlook.
  - bradleyjg 9y ago
    It's hard to design an incentive structure that's perfectly aligned. In the case of a commission only on the increase, now they've gone from having too much of an incentive to get any deal done quickly to not enough of an incentive to close a deal even if it isn't a large increase. You can fiddle around with a fixed part and incentive part, but it is very hard to find the right spot. One alternative is to pay by the hour but that comes with its own set of perverse incentives.
paultopia 9y ago
This has no information about the qualifications, details of how the service works, or price. At least not on mobile. And the one link (to a form) delivers an error page. Maybe the YouTube video has that info (??)
chopete 9y ago
For same reason one of the founders mentioned >> most people are not the best at advocating for themselves Is there a service to help negotiate a better raise? (Of course, working behind the scenes) I presume this is a struggle for every employee everywhere, every year throughout the career. I managed to do better a few times by writing a nice email but many a times I just lacked the energy to compose such emails and settled for whatever is offered.
gowld 9y ago
Here's the baseline that AoD has to beat: patio11's classic blog post has put $millions in the pockets of new hires. https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/
exabrial 9y ago
I feel like we're reaching peak software "engineering" if this is becoming a reality... I guess props to these guys for inventing an interesting service in the free market.
qume 9y ago
I have no opinion whatsoever on this service but I believe everybody should be represented by a professional third party in any meaningful negotiation. Unless it's something trivial like selling a used car or a job you will commit the vast majority of your life to.
tostitoes 9y ago
this particular service is already fully served by sites like paysa, payscal and glassdoor. if this was launched pre-internet it may have been a successful one. i would never subscribe to this. there are similar services which claim to reduce our internet bills but somewhere buried in their terms and conditions will be a line which says ones we register with then they will have the authority and choice to negotiate the duration of contract or other aspects of it and we will only have one more issue to deal with. this is bad. did u notice, it is free during the beta stage, that's how they lure u in. if its a authentic and credible service it need not be free when beta. one would be happy to pay for it if it really adds value and doesn't subtract value. but this service may seem like it might add some negligible value in the short term but will end up subtracting value for the larger community in the long run. i think this is how insurance came into picture and we all know how money sucking it ended up and leading to poor health care and bloated up prices. i feel like this whole thing is unnecessary. anybody else with me? the sooner this industry goes out of business its good for everyone, assuming if it exists at all... no body wants one more middle man taking a cut from my paycheck. the businesses are better paying the good amount to us then have behind the scenes dealings with the negotiator and pay him a fee for the work that the employee is going to do for years. i am sure a smart person would know how to negotiate their package and some organizations may directly reject to work with any negotiator and will figure out if we are getting inputs from a negotiator behind the scenes. We will not have the authority or even be aware if such a negotiating organization is working behind our back with other organizations to limit our package. one organization will massively benefit by teaming up with many other organizations then supporting the individual candidates who wont be powerful enough to sue you in case of any issue in at least most cases.
webmaven 9y ago
To more closely model the frequent negotiations in the entertainment industry, how about using AoD to negotiate for raises? That could happen once or twice a year for each user (instead of every 3 years on average), even if they remain at the same job for the same employer. And even if the negotiation goal is something other than a base salary raise (more vacation time, attending conferences), Pay-what-you-want still works.

152 points by gregsadetsky 9y ago

I just wanted to add a testimonial & a bit of context about the above link. I've been on the 10x Management engineering roster for 5 years now, and they've always been stellar at finding clients and freelance gigs, negotiating and closing deals, etc. They recently expanded their "beta" testing of a new service they've rolled out called Agent on Demand (in short they help top engineers to negotiate their new, fulltime, employment contracts), and I was lucky enough to be one of the first people to benefit from their guidance during a hiring process. 10x played the roll of an advisor/mentor, guiding me in the negotiation -- on salary, benefits, figuring out what I wanted, etc. They were fantastic in this: instead of feeling like I was in the dark, not knowing what I could ask for, not being sure of my next move, I was coached into asking for the things I wanted (and/or that I didn't think I could get) and ended up very happy with the resulting package (PTO, clear definition of my role, etc.) Having an experienced "wingman" helps, tremendously...! If you've got a real job offer and want help negotiating it, I would recommend trying them out - and during this expanded beta period, the service is pay what you want, so it's quite reasonable to engage them. Happy to answer questions. Cheers

tibbetts 9y ago
What was the percentage impact on cash compensation between initial offer and outcome? Do you think the company hiring you went outside the range they originally planned, or did you/10x get them to change how they thought about the role/you?
- gregsadetsky 9y ago
  Compensation was higher, but to me there was much more, just as the employer/employee relationship is... much more. Generally speaking, it "freaked me out" that this negotiation (happening at the very beginning of employment) would decide so many things going forward. The feeling of "this is my only chance" was weighing down on me. In using this service: - 10x both coached and represented me during the negotiations (reducing my stress) - they (10x) validated that I was getting a good deal in terms of compensation - it definitely changed the employer's perspective to see that I had an agent working on my behalf (they understood that I was taking this seriously) - benefits-wise, I received a generous PTO offer and remote work options that suited my travel plans

sbrother 9y ago

Another quick testimonial -- I've been working with Michael and Rishon at 10x for about two years ago, and these guys are fantastic. They supplement my own dealflow (which is purely word-of-mouth) with their own PR/marketing operation and network, and have brought me several clients I never would have had access to on my own. They help with rate negotiation, back-office chores like billing, and even collecting delinquent payments. I'm earning more than I was as an engineer at Google, and enjoying a much more flexible lifestyle. I highly recommend them.

htormey 9y ago
Could you talk a little bit more about your situation and how you work with these guys? I assume you are a contractor, can you tell us a little bit about your background and give us an example of how they helped you find work? Thanks.
- sbrother 9y ago
  Absolutely, with the caveat that the service this link describes is different than the one they provide for me. I have an engineering background building machine learning/NLP services (think ad servers, chatbots, search engines etc), including at a few startups and on an ads quality team at Google (linkedin.com/in/sbrother). I had taken a few consulting gigs throughout my career, but I finally quit to pursue full time software consulting two years ago. At that point I signed up with 10x management in an effort to bring in leads to supplement those from my own network. They have a loose network of ~100 similar freelancers, running the whole gamut of software development niches. They do their best to match clients (that's us) with customers, but will send leads out over an email list if not sure. They'll set up the first meeting, and if that goes well they'll help with rate negotiation and later on billing. For all this they take 15% of each invoice. From my perspective it is a fantastic deal -- they helped negotiate my standard rate up by 75% and have brought in some very large contracts for me. Their business has helped me scale mine to the point I've been able to hire an employee and take some time off for "paternity leave" without losing my entire income stream. I highly recommend working with them if their services look useful to you.

zaphirplane 9y ago

How much do they charge

gregsadetsky 9y ago
During the extended beta period, they are "pay what you want". If you qualify, it's most definitely worth it.

ironix 9y ago

I see testimonies here in comments by freelancers who are using 10xmanagement to source work. This specific product posted here seems to be for something else: you have a gig lined up, but want to be represented. I appreciate the endorsements, but am now curious about the main product: how do I get on the 10xmanagement list of software engineers to be considered for gigs? I don't see a publicly visible way to apply. Is it really via referral only? If so, where do I go to find a referral? Luck? Research existing "10x developers" and get them to like me? What are the requirements to becoming a "10xer," aside from the potential for referral? EDIT: Ah, I did not read the FAQ: https://www.10xmanagement.com/faq/ https://www.10xmanagement.com/faq/ -- tl;dr as the response below suggests, probably need to contact them. As far as I can tell, they're basically operating as a standalone agency, so it's not much different than applying for a job interview anywhere else.

YuriNiyazov 9y ago
Just email them
gregsadetsky 9y ago
My other comment in this thread is not only a testimonial for the "main" 10x service, but also for this specific Agent on Demand one, which I've benefited from last year. See the 2nd paragraph [1]. > I appreciate the endorsements, but am now curious about the main product: how do I get on the 10xmanagement list of software engineers to be considered for gigs? There's a "Become a 10xer" button on the home page, right at the bottom. It links to this page [2]. Although I do not work for 10x, I am a very happy "client" (I'm a client since they represent me -- it still confuses me after 5 years). Feel free to email me with any questions! gs @ (my hn username).com [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16494681 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16494681 [2] http://info.10xmanagement.com/contact-us-become-10xer http://info.10xmanagement.com/contact-us-become-10xer

swissChoc 9y ago

Say, I am right now interviewing and about to get an offer, how to make them help me?

gregsadetsky 9y ago
Click the orange button :-) https://www.10xmanagement.com/agent-on-demand/ https://www.10xmanagement.com/agent-on-demand/
- PenguinCoder 9y ago
  Looks like some error page for me: "We had some trouble loading this form. Click here to continue." Clicking results in another error "This form didn't load. Please try again later."
  - gregsadetsky 9y ago
    Are you running an ad blocker? I'm wondering if that might be interfering. Just loaded the form using the direct URL [1] and it worked fine. Try in an incognito window, just to make sure? [1] https://www.10xmanagement.com/agent-on-demand/ https://www.10xmanagement.com/agent-on-demand/

mtgex 9y ago

This suffers from the same issue with using a real estate agent to buy / sell a house. Agents are not financially incentivized to get you the best offer. They are financially incentivized for you to accept any offer, period. The extra commission on negotiating a higher offer does not justify the time and energy. Additionally, it increases the chances that either party will terminate the negotiation outright. Agents are not working for you, they are working on closing a deal and in fact the agent and the company they're selling you to have the exact same incentives. Get you in as quickly and as cheaply as possible. Negotiation is more about soft skills, charisma, information obfuscation, and outright lying than it is about fighting to get what you "deserve."

chapill 9y ago
None of that really applies to 10xmanagement specifically.
d0lph 9y ago
Couldn't you just rebalance the commission so the pay increase is the majority of the commission. Not saying the current situation isn't messed up, but there is no reason it couldn't be fixed.
- mtgex 9y ago
  Yeah I can see that, although in that case you do need to prove to your agent what you were making before, and if they feel it's not worth their time they will be more likely to pass on working with you. But that's a whole paradigm shift in thinking about agency, and they're perfectly happy with how things operate currently. They would have to spend a lot more time actually negotiating. In the case of real estate, the idea that you absolutely need to work with an agent is so entrenched that it's very difficult to get anyone to consider the alternative outlook.
- bradleyjg 9y ago
  It's hard to design an incentive structure that's perfectly aligned. In the case of a commission only on the increase, now they've gone from having too much of an incentive to get any deal done quickly to not enough of an incentive to close a deal even if it isn't a large increase. You can fiddle around with a fixed part and incentive part, but it is very hard to find the right spot. One alternative is to pay by the hour but that comes with its own set of perverse incentives.

paultopia 9y ago

This has no information about the qualifications, details of how the service works, or price. At least not on mobile. And the one link (to a form) delivers an error page. Maybe the YouTube video has that info (??)

chopete 9y ago

For same reason one of the founders mentioned >> most people are not the best at advocating for themselves Is there a service to help negotiate a better raise? (Of course, working behind the scenes) I presume this is a struggle for every employee everywhere, every year throughout the career. I managed to do better a few times by writing a nice email but many a times I just lacked the energy to compose such emails and settled for whatever is offered.

gowld 9y ago

Here's the baseline that AoD has to beat: patio11's classic blog post has put $millions in the pockets of new hires. https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/

exabrial 9y ago

I feel like we're reaching peak software "engineering" if this is becoming a reality... I guess props to these guys for inventing an interesting service in the free market.

qume 9y ago

I have no opinion whatsoever on this service but I believe everybody should be represented by a professional third party in any meaningful negotiation. Unless it's something trivial like selling a used car or a job you will commit the vast majority of your life to.

tostitoes 9y ago

this particular service is already fully served by sites like paysa, payscal and glassdoor. if this was launched pre-internet it may have been a successful one. i would never subscribe to this. there are similar services which claim to reduce our internet bills but somewhere buried in their terms and conditions will be a line which says ones we register with then they will have the authority and choice to negotiate the duration of contract or other aspects of it and we will only have one more issue to deal with. this is bad. did u notice, it is free during the beta stage, that's how they lure u in. if its a authentic and credible service it need not be free when beta. one would be happy to pay for it if it really adds value and doesn't subtract value. but this service may seem like it might add some negligible value in the short term but will end up subtracting value for the larger community in the long run. i think this is how insurance came into picture and we all know how money sucking it ended up and leading to poor health care and bloated up prices. i feel like this whole thing is unnecessary. anybody else with me? the sooner this industry goes out of business its good for everyone, assuming if it exists at all... no body wants one more middle man taking a cut from my paycheck. the businesses are better paying the good amount to us then have behind the scenes dealings with the negotiator and pay him a fee for the work that the employee is going to do for years. i am sure a smart person would know how to negotiate their package and some organizations may directly reject to work with any negotiator and will figure out if we are getting inputs from a negotiator behind the scenes. We will not have the authority or even be aware if such a negotiating organization is working behind our back with other organizations to limit our package. one organization will massively benefit by teaming up with many other organizations then supporting the individual candidates who wont be powerful enough to sue you in case of any issue in at least most cases.

webmaven 9y ago

To more closely model the frequent negotiations in the entertainment industry, how about using AoD to negotiate for raises? That could happen once or twice a year for each user (instead of every 3 years on average), even if they remain at the same job for the same employer. And even if the negotiation goal is something other than a base salary raise (more vacation time, attending conferences), Pay-what-you-want still works.