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I partially disagree. In hiring you need some way to assess whether or not applicants can actually produce useful work. You can't get that from a resume, you c

I partially disagree. In hiring you need some way to assess whether or not applicants can actually produce useful work. You can't get that from a resume, you can't get that from education background, and you can't get that from talking to people. Now, you could just ask applicants for a sample of their work (preferably open source) and evaluate them on that. Coding challenges probably get done instead of that because it is easier for companies to evaluate a single coding challenge than to evaluate a broad range of unique work from different individuals. As an engineer the employment process gives you an opportunity to evaluate companies in the same way that they have an opportunity to evaluate you. If a company has a sub-par hiring process then you cross them off the list and move on.

vinceguidry 9y ago
We're not even going to get to the mutual evaluation part if we can't get past the initial hurdles.
- tytytytytytytyt 9y ago
  You don't want to get to the mutual evaluation part with people who can't complete a basic programming task. That would waste an inordinate amount of your time and theirs.
  - vinceguidry 9y ago
    They're not asking me to complete a basic programming task. They're asking me to greenfield a project and implement complex features, often under ridiculous constraints.
deleted 9y ago
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cptskippy 9y ago
When looking for a software developer you're not just looking for someone who can implement a solution to a problem. Daily duties involve discussing issues and impediments, navigating organizational bureaucracy, managing code bases via source control repositories, troubleshooting environment issues, playing nice with other developer's code, updating ticketing systems, providing systems documentation, and writing maintainable code. A coding challenge addresses none of that, it just asks the candidate to solve a problem. Often coding challenges are sent to candidates and there's no verification that they're even the one completing the work. I've spoken with many candidates who submitted coding samples or code challenges and were completely unable to discuss the code. Often times I wondered if their recruiter supplied the code and not the candidate because of their confusion surrounding the code. I've had more luck accessing candidates by asking simple requests like "tell me about your daily duties at your last/present job" or "oh you've language x, what's your least favorite part of developing with it?" If the candidate can't discuss simple things with mild depth or command then they're probably not a good fit.
- Clubber 9y ago
  >I've had more luck accessing candidates by asking simple requests like "tell me about your daily duties at your last/present job" or "oh you've language x, what's your least favorite part of developing with it?" If the candidate can't discuss simple things with mild depth or command then they're probably not a good fit. This is what I do. If an interviewer can be bullshitted doing it this way, they don't need to be interviewing. Non-technical managers really need to defer this sort of thing to technical people.
  - saas_co_de 9y ago
    > If an interviewer can be bullshitted doing it this way, they don't need to be interviewing There is no magical BS detector. You can't judge a person's skill without seeing them work. Everyone I have met who thinks they are smart enough to not get duped by smooth talkers gets duped all the time.
    - Clubber 9y ago
      >There is no magical BS detector. You can't judge a person's skill without seeing them work. You are conflating the issues. A tech top can detect BS, but no one can judge a person's skill without seeing them work for several months. Think of it this way. How long do you think it would take an MD to detect a fraud MD talking shop? Not long. How long does it take a military veteran to spot a fraud? Seconds. You have to be technical to spot the issues though. If something pops up that makes you think they are bullshitting, you have to drill in on it.
      - saas_co_de 9y ago
        Those examples are not the same though. You can have someone who has an extensive education in Computer Science and can talk about it all day long very articulately but has no implementation skills. You might be able to catch someone with no comp-sci background by talking to them but not someone who has an advanced comp sci education. The doctor example is relevant though. Doctors don't get hired based on talking. They have to do residencies, get certified, and demonstrate ability before even applying for a job. Same reason. Someone could learn how to repeat everything in the text books without being able to do the procedures, which require practice to master.

vinceguidry 9y ago

We're not even going to get to the mutual evaluation part if we can't get past the initial hurdles.

tytytytytytytyt 9y ago
You don't want to get to the mutual evaluation part with people who can't complete a basic programming task. That would waste an inordinate amount of your time and theirs.
- vinceguidry 9y ago
  They're not asking me to complete a basic programming task. They're asking me to greenfield a project and implement complex features, often under ridiculous constraints.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

cptskippy 9y ago

When looking for a software developer you're not just looking for someone who can implement a solution to a problem. Daily duties involve discussing issues and impediments, navigating organizational bureaucracy, managing code bases via source control repositories, troubleshooting environment issues, playing nice with other developer's code, updating ticketing systems, providing systems documentation, and writing maintainable code. A coding challenge addresses none of that, it just asks the candidate to solve a problem. Often coding challenges are sent to candidates and there's no verification that they're even the one completing the work. I've spoken with many candidates who submitted coding samples or code challenges and were completely unable to discuss the code. Often times I wondered if their recruiter supplied the code and not the candidate because of their confusion surrounding the code. I've had more luck accessing candidates by asking simple requests like "tell me about your daily duties at your last/present job" or "oh you've language x, what's your least favorite part of developing with it?" If the candidate can't discuss simple things with mild depth or command then they're probably not a good fit.

Clubber 9y ago
>I've had more luck accessing candidates by asking simple requests like "tell me about your daily duties at your last/present job" or "oh you've language x, what's your least favorite part of developing with it?" If the candidate can't discuss simple things with mild depth or command then they're probably not a good fit. This is what I do. If an interviewer can be bullshitted doing it this way, they don't need to be interviewing. Non-technical managers really need to defer this sort of thing to technical people.
- saas_co_de 9y ago
  > If an interviewer can be bullshitted doing it this way, they don't need to be interviewing There is no magical BS detector. You can't judge a person's skill without seeing them work. Everyone I have met who thinks they are smart enough to not get duped by smooth talkers gets duped all the time.
  - Clubber 9y ago
    >There is no magical BS detector. You can't judge a person's skill without seeing them work. You are conflating the issues. A tech top can detect BS, but no one can judge a person's skill without seeing them work for several months. Think of it this way. How long do you think it would take an MD to detect a fraud MD talking shop? Not long. How long does it take a military veteran to spot a fraud? Seconds. You have to be technical to spot the issues though. If something pops up that makes you think they are bullshitting, you have to drill in on it.
    - saas_co_de 9y ago
      Those examples are not the same though. You can have someone who has an extensive education in Computer Science and can talk about it all day long very articulately but has no implementation skills. You might be able to catch someone with no comp-sci background by talking to them but not someone who has an advanced comp sci education. The doctor example is relevant though. Doctors don't get hired based on talking. They have to do residencies, get certified, and demonstrate ability before even applying for a job. Same reason. Someone could learn how to repeat everything in the text books without being able to do the procedures, which require practice to master.