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My main disconnect with the hiring process these days is the near-ubiquitous use of code challenges that just keep getting more and more time-consuming. A frie

My main disconnect with the hiring process these days is the near-ubiquitous use of code challenges that just keep getting more and more time-consuming. A friend of mine asked me if I wanted a pointer to a job that wanted me to spend six hours of my free time greenfielding a toy. I laughed and said no thanks. Code challenges are sucking all the liquidity out of the job market and are probably responsible for a good bit of the salary hikes I've been seeing lately. One challenge asked me to do everything in Vanilla Javascript. The other asked me to make a commit to their production codebase. Even if you offer to pay me, your offer is never going to be truly enough, and I'm not looking for side work. Code challenges feel incredibly lazy to me. Your organization sucks at hiring, so let's throw all the obstacles we can at applicants and see who makes it through. I wanted the job that asked me to do the production commit bad enough that I made my best effort. I ran into a snag and raised an issue like I was asked to. No reply, and the door slammed shut in my face a few days later when the time frame elapsed. I now refuse to do a more-than-trivial code challenge while I still have a job. It's just not worth it.

hashkb 9y ago
How would you fairly evaluate 20 candidates in a month or two and make a couple of hires?
- vinceguidry 9y ago
  This question lacks context. What sort of business are we dealing with here? SaaS? Consulting? Game development? Are we making websites? What does the existing technology look like? From these questions I can come to an understanding of what sort of talent is needed. Can we get away with junior talent or is a senior perspective required? What sorts of management resources are available, will we need the candidates to take on those roles too?
- kabouseng 9y ago
  Sit down with them, have a decent human to human chat, and see if they can at least talk like they know their shit. If you dig down in conversation deep enough you will figure out what they truly know even with the bullshitters, if you are a domain expert yourself. If not you are unable to evaluate someone in any case.
saas_co_de 9y ago
I partially disagree. In hiring you need some way to assess whether or not applicants can actually produce useful work. You can't get that from a resume, you can't get that from education background, and you can't get that from talking to people. Now, you could just ask applicants for a sample of their work (preferably open source) and evaluate them on that. Coding challenges probably get done instead of that because it is easier for companies to evaluate a single coding challenge than to evaluate a broad range of unique work from different individuals. As an engineer the employment process gives you an opportunity to evaluate companies in the same way that they have an opportunity to evaluate you. If a company has a sub-par hiring process then you cross them off the list and move on.
- vinceguidry 9y ago
  We're not even going to get to the mutual evaluation part if we can't get past the initial hurdles.
  - tytytytytytytyt 9y ago
    You don't want to get to the mutual evaluation part with people who can't complete a basic programming task. That would waste an inordinate amount of your time and theirs.
    - vinceguidry 9y ago
      They're not asking me to complete a basic programming task. They're asking me to greenfield a project and implement complex features, often under ridiculous constraints.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- cptskippy 9y ago
  When looking for a software developer you're not just looking for someone who can implement a solution to a problem. Daily duties involve discussing issues and impediments, navigating organizational bureaucracy, managing code bases via source control repositories, troubleshooting environment issues, playing nice with other developer's code, updating ticketing systems, providing systems documentation, and writing maintainable code. A coding challenge addresses none of that, it just asks the candidate to solve a problem. Often coding challenges are sent to candidates and there's no verification that they're even the one completing the work. I've spoken with many candidates who submitted coding samples or code challenges and were completely unable to discuss the code. Often times I wondered if their recruiter supplied the code and not the candidate because of their confusion surrounding the code. I've had more luck accessing candidates by asking simple requests like "tell me about your daily duties at your last/present job" or "oh you've language x, what's your least favorite part of developing with it?" If the candidate can't discuss simple things with mild depth or command then they're probably not a good fit.
thathappened 9y ago
You have a quality of work mentality in a business running in a capitalist society. Theyre less removed and have to force you to abandon quality time to focus on new things just like your competitors. There's little management innovation, they all mostly copy each other
- jimmy1 9y ago
  > There's little management innovation, they all mostly copy each other Boy this is the freaking truth isn't it? Makes you wonder where the innovation is going to come from because it certainly isn't going to be universities -- all those management textbooks used in MBA programs across the country are just utter and complete rubbish.
tytytytytytytyt 9y ago
> My main disconnect with the hiring process these days is the near-ubiquitous use of code challenges that just keep getting more and more time-consuming. They are still pretty rare as far as I have seen, at least any that are especially long. > Code challenges are sucking all the liquidity out of the job market... How exactly do they do that? > One challenge asked me to do everything in Vanilla Javascript. As if wanting a candidate with a reasonable level of knowledge on that is outlandish? > Code challenges feel incredibly lazy to me. I'd love to know a better way to weed out the people who can talk the talk but can't walk the walk. And every time I ask, the best response is something absurdly vague like, "I'd just talk to them and know, because I'd know what to ask them." > Your organization sucks at hiring, so let's throw all the obstacles we can at applicants and see who makes it through. As if testing for basic programming proficiency is 'all the obstacles'?
- walshemj 9y ago
  Re sucking liquidity - any good candidate will go "fuck no" and your left with candidates "in need of some improvement" or those who rote learned through a CS degree.
  - tytytytytytytyt 9y ago
    Is that really bad for the programmers in this case?
- vinceguidry 9y ago
  If you can't trust the five years of industry experience I have and my ability to convey that experience in an interview, then I don't need to deal with your company. I'm sorry if you guys are so bad at ascertaining a candidate's rough skill level from a conversation. I'm not. One code challenge is fine. But if they're all asking for them then applying for a job while I still have a job then I'm spending 8+ hours of my free time a week just doing code challenges. I'd have to really hate my life before that becomes something I want to do. I don't know what segment of the job market you're in, but in mine it's getting a lot more common. They're treating mid-level and senior candidates like recent grads.
OnionBlender 9y ago
I'd rather spent 6 hours on a toy project instead of the 200+ hours I spent studying for Google. Solving problems on a white board is very different compared to solving problems on a computer with a plain text editor. I did significantly better in another interview where I was given a laptop connected to a projector instead of having to stand and write on a white board for 4 hours in one day. The skills I would have to hone to do well in a Google style interview are very different from the skills I would have to improve to excel at my job. I wonder if Google prefers this system because the type of people that are willing to spent hundreds of hours honing their interview skills are also the type of people that are willing to invest a lot of their free time into their job beyond what is required.
- Caveman_Coder 9y ago
  > "...instead of the 200+ hours I spent studying for Google" That sounds like an exaggeration. I'd bet that very few people who work here had to spend that much time preparing...
  - mancerayder 9y ago
    I interviewed there as an SRE many years ago (early-mid 2000's) and I was asked about mathematical algorithms, whether I'd published any books in tech, and what open source I contributed to. I would have needed to study for a year or more of math since I never studied math in college, and I wasn't just out of college. Even someone with a computer science degree, once they've been a professional for a few years, would need to crack open college textbooks again to pass a Google interview. Unless they did math as a hobby, which I will refrain from commenting on at this time.
  - DoreenMichele 9y ago
    I got a job at Aflac on my first try. I was even offered my choice of jobs as I qualified for more than one position. I applied because my mother suggested it. It was outside of the field I desired to go into. A coworker of mine spent 5 years applying and reapplying and trying to improve their qualifications until they finally got hired. I don't see any reason to question the statement that GP invested 200 hours.

hashkb 9y ago

How would you fairly evaluate 20 candidates in a month or two and make a couple of hires?

vinceguidry 9y ago
This question lacks context. What sort of business are we dealing with here? SaaS? Consulting? Game development? Are we making websites? What does the existing technology look like? From these questions I can come to an understanding of what sort of talent is needed. Can we get away with junior talent or is a senior perspective required? What sorts of management resources are available, will we need the candidates to take on those roles too?
kabouseng 9y ago
Sit down with them, have a decent human to human chat, and see if they can at least talk like they know their shit. If you dig down in conversation deep enough you will figure out what they truly know even with the bullshitters, if you are a domain expert yourself. If not you are unable to evaluate someone in any case.

saas_co_de 9y ago

I partially disagree. In hiring you need some way to assess whether or not applicants can actually produce useful work. You can't get that from a resume, you can't get that from education background, and you can't get that from talking to people. Now, you could just ask applicants for a sample of their work (preferably open source) and evaluate them on that. Coding challenges probably get done instead of that because it is easier for companies to evaluate a single coding challenge than to evaluate a broad range of unique work from different individuals. As an engineer the employment process gives you an opportunity to evaluate companies in the same way that they have an opportunity to evaluate you. If a company has a sub-par hiring process then you cross them off the list and move on.

vinceguidry 9y ago
We're not even going to get to the mutual evaluation part if we can't get past the initial hurdles.
- tytytytytytytyt 9y ago
  You don't want to get to the mutual evaluation part with people who can't complete a basic programming task. That would waste an inordinate amount of your time and theirs.
  - vinceguidry 9y ago
    They're not asking me to complete a basic programming task. They're asking me to greenfield a project and implement complex features, often under ridiculous constraints.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
cptskippy 9y ago
When looking for a software developer you're not just looking for someone who can implement a solution to a problem. Daily duties involve discussing issues and impediments, navigating organizational bureaucracy, managing code bases via source control repositories, troubleshooting environment issues, playing nice with other developer's code, updating ticketing systems, providing systems documentation, and writing maintainable code. A coding challenge addresses none of that, it just asks the candidate to solve a problem. Often coding challenges are sent to candidates and there's no verification that they're even the one completing the work. I've spoken with many candidates who submitted coding samples or code challenges and were completely unable to discuss the code. Often times I wondered if their recruiter supplied the code and not the candidate because of their confusion surrounding the code. I've had more luck accessing candidates by asking simple requests like "tell me about your daily duties at your last/present job" or "oh you've language x, what's your least favorite part of developing with it?" If the candidate can't discuss simple things with mild depth or command then they're probably not a good fit.

thathappened 9y ago

You have a quality of work mentality in a business running in a capitalist society. Theyre less removed and have to force you to abandon quality time to focus on new things just like your competitors. There's little management innovation, they all mostly copy each other

jimmy1 9y ago
> There's little management innovation, they all mostly copy each other Boy this is the freaking truth isn't it? Makes you wonder where the innovation is going to come from because it certainly isn't going to be universities -- all those management textbooks used in MBA programs across the country are just utter and complete rubbish.

tytytytytytytyt 9y ago

> My main disconnect with the hiring process these days is the near-ubiquitous use of code challenges that just keep getting more and more time-consuming. They are still pretty rare as far as I have seen, at least any that are especially long. > Code challenges are sucking all the liquidity out of the job market... How exactly do they do that? > One challenge asked me to do everything in Vanilla Javascript. As if wanting a candidate with a reasonable level of knowledge on that is outlandish? > Code challenges feel incredibly lazy to me. I'd love to know a better way to weed out the people who can talk the talk but can't walk the walk. And every time I ask, the best response is something absurdly vague like, "I'd just talk to them and know, because I'd know what to ask them." > Your organization sucks at hiring, so let's throw all the obstacles we can at applicants and see who makes it through. As if testing for basic programming proficiency is 'all the obstacles'?

walshemj 9y ago
Re sucking liquidity - any good candidate will go "fuck no" and your left with candidates "in need of some improvement" or those who rote learned through a CS degree.
- tytytytytytytyt 9y ago
  Is that really bad for the programmers in this case?
vinceguidry 9y ago
If you can't trust the five years of industry experience I have and my ability to convey that experience in an interview, then I don't need to deal with your company. I'm sorry if you guys are so bad at ascertaining a candidate's rough skill level from a conversation. I'm not. One code challenge is fine. But if they're all asking for them then applying for a job while I still have a job then I'm spending 8+ hours of my free time a week just doing code challenges. I'd have to really hate my life before that becomes something I want to do. I don't know what segment of the job market you're in, but in mine it's getting a lot more common. They're treating mid-level and senior candidates like recent grads.

OnionBlender 9y ago

I'd rather spent 6 hours on a toy project instead of the 200+ hours I spent studying for Google. Solving problems on a white board is very different compared to solving problems on a computer with a plain text editor. I did significantly better in another interview where I was given a laptop connected to a projector instead of having to stand and write on a white board for 4 hours in one day. The skills I would have to hone to do well in a Google style interview are very different from the skills I would have to improve to excel at my job. I wonder if Google prefers this system because the type of people that are willing to spent hundreds of hours honing their interview skills are also the type of people that are willing to invest a lot of their free time into their job beyond what is required.

Caveman_Coder 9y ago
> "...instead of the 200+ hours I spent studying for Google" That sounds like an exaggeration. I'd bet that very few people who work here had to spend that much time preparing...
- mancerayder 9y ago
  I interviewed there as an SRE many years ago (early-mid 2000's) and I was asked about mathematical algorithms, whether I'd published any books in tech, and what open source I contributed to. I would have needed to study for a year or more of math since I never studied math in college, and I wasn't just out of college. Even someone with a computer science degree, once they've been a professional for a few years, would need to crack open college textbooks again to pass a Google interview. Unless they did math as a hobby, which I will refrain from commenting on at this time.
- DoreenMichele 9y ago
  I got a job at Aflac on my first try. I was even offered my choice of jobs as I qualified for more than one position. I applied because my mother suggested it. It was outside of the field I desired to go into. A coworker of mine spent 5 years applying and reapplying and trying to improve their qualifications until they finally got hired. I don't see any reason to question the statement that GP invested 200 hours.