17 ms·

Long Term Depression Permanently Changes the Brain

370 points by thg 9y ago

lazerpants 9y ago
Actual paper: http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(18)30048-8/fulltext http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-03...
dpflan 9y ago
This article about treating depression is also on the front page at the moment. Seems good to link for more references and discussion: > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16492489 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16492489
jimmy1 9y ago
> evidence for neuroprogression (ie, increasing brain pathology with longer duration of illness) is scarce. I get that this is an academic paper, so they need empirical evidence to base their study, but this is a case, to me, of anyone who has ever hung out long enough with depressed people whether that is going to support groups or living in a toxic environment, that, anecdotally, it is very apparent that this is the case. Additionally, as a casual purveyor of recent neuroscience, the findings aren't surprising, not to take away from the accomplishments. Long term <any state of mind> permanently changes the brain. The brain isn't this static object where all your innate characteristics are bestowed upon you at birth -- your brain changes every day. Fighting this millennial-long engrained preconception is going to be the biggest challenge for a wide variety of mental health concerns in terms of getting public buy in to actually start solving the mental health crisis this country is currently facing.
- JackFr 9y ago
  > as a casual purveyor of recent neuroscience, pur·vey /pərˈvā/ v. provide or supply (food, drink, or other goods) as one's business
  - jimmy1 9y ago
    Definition #2: a person or group that spreads or promotes an idea, view, etc. I will admit it probably wasn't obvious that's what I was aiming for -- to clarify -- I mentioned depression support groups and family that suffer from depression in my first sentence. I now spend time trying to support others who are struggling with mental health (my family included) with what I study -- articles, books, journals, publishings, and whatever lectures I have time to watch on youtube.
- wallace_f 9y ago
  Hopefully this will lead to more understanding about why people think and act differently than what we would expect or desire.
callesgg 9y ago
Nice that we are making some progress. Long term depression will effect the way you think i.e. your brain, that seams obvious to me.
- Scriptor 9y ago
  It's obvious that it affects your brain while you have depression. However, I don't think it's obvious that the effects would be permanent.
  - mrec 9y ago
    /me fantasizes about non-permanent long-term depression...
  - callesgg 9y ago
    If i learn something about depression when depressed. I have altered my brain. And that is what seams obvious to me. I guess the article was trying to make it seam like the alteration was "out of band" but that seams stupid to me. Occam's razor. If you are depressed your brain will pick up on stuff that fits in that bracket.
indubitably 9y ago
Well that’s depressing.
- tuespetre 9y ago
  Yes. It is a feedback loop, much like we see with the climate... aaaand writing this comment fed into it.
- tachyoff 9y ago
  As someone with depression, I thought the same thing!
xkcd-sucks 9y ago
"Long term depression" canonically describes decreased synaptic "connection strength" and is certainly not a bad thing (otherwise, your neural net's weights all tend towards 1). "Chronic depression" would be a much better term for the title.
grinsekatze 9y ago
Well, I think it is safe to assume that Long Term Happiness changes the brain "permanently" in the same manner. How about this: the brain is ever changing. Our previous states of consciousness manifest in our brain, which can be observed when we look at it.
- cgriswald 9y ago
  > Well, I think it is safe to assume that Long Term Happiness changes the brain "permanently" in the same manner. That would be a poor assumption. The "change" that was observed by the researchers was an increase in the amount of a protein which is an indicator for brain inflammation. Per the article, you see the same type of inflammation with diseases like Alzheimers. The takeaway is that depression is a progressive illness and current treatment doesn't address this progression.
  - devmunchies 9y ago
    > current treatment doesn't address this progression I myself would rather see a prevention than a treatment. But there is no money in preventative care.
    - Broken_Hippo 9y ago
      "But there is no money in preventative care" Yes, there is. You just aren't looking in the right places. Employers. Employees. Insurance companies and those that pay for insurance. Governments that provide health care to some or all of its citizens. Taxpayers that fund those programs.
      - Groxx 9y ago
        That's great to hear! Can I bill you for the difference between what I pay for preventative care after insurance, vs what this implies the cost should be?
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
aantix 9y ago
Does the simple expectation of happiness exasperate the symptoms of depression? I found Dr. Jordan Peterson's commentary on this a helpful perspective. "Life is complex and tragic and difficult, and the problem with the public portrayal of the ideal state of humanness as happiness is that it makes all of these young people feel ashamed of their own suffering. They feel that if they’re suffering and if they find their life tragic in its essence that that means there’s something wrong with them, and instantly that makes it impossible for them to communicate anything real about their own tragedy." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySxVlE2gSrY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySxVlE2gSrY
- tryitnow 9y ago
  To be clear, Peterson's commentary is not original. M. Scott Peck, the Buddha, and literally 100s of other philosophers and psychologists have shared similar insights. Remarkably, those thinkers managed to share this insight without offending half the population in order to drive book sales and line their pockets. tldr; there are better sources of this idea than Mr. Peterson.
  - cgmg 9y ago
    > To be clear, Peterson's commentary is not original. M. Scott Peck, the Buddha, and literally 100s of other philosophers and psychologists have shared similar insights. Remarkably, those thinkers managed to share this insight without offending half the population in order to drive book sales and line their pockets. What point are you trying to make with this snide remark? That sources should be disregarded if their ideas “offend” 50% of the population (a claim for which you provided no evidence)? That sources should be disregarded if they made money from book sales? This would mean disregarding almost all sources. That a commentary is "unoriginal" if someone in the past has "shared similar insights"? This is pure nonsense.
    - pault 9y ago
      One could argue that quoting a source who is a bit of a lightning rod for controversy makes the conversation more complicated than it needs to be if there is an alternative source available.
MrPatan 9y ago
"Long term permanently changes the brain" FTFY
Allower 9y ago
>25 people FACEPALM
kungfooman 9y ago
Do they mix up cause and result? Inflammation causes depression, not the other way around. Zinc deficit can drop the IQ by 15 points and causes all sorts of inflammations on the whole body, weaken mucous membrane, the immune system can barely work. That this isn't healthy for the brain shouldn't wonder anyone...
plg 9y ago
how do they know that it's not the reverse: that the changes in the brain they observe cause long term depression?
- Florin_Andrei 9y ago
  It's likely that both sides influence each other. But same (just in the opposite direction) is true for positive states of mind.
zombieprocesses 9y ago
Or changes in the brain cause depression? Isn't it more likely that depression is a symptom of the brain rather than the brain being a symptom of depression?
- swearwolves 9y ago
  This was my first thought too. The article doesn't mention this at all. It sounds like they just pulled people off the street, tested for the protein, and assumed causality. Wouldn't they have to had tested the same subset of people over time to make their claim?
- cpncrunch 9y ago
  There is a lot of research showing that psychological stress (and social defeat in particular) causes microglial over-activation and neuroinflammation, which then results in the symptoms of anxiety and depression. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5660717/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5660717/
RobertRoberts 9y ago
This just in, long term anything changes something. Don't forget your pills. /rant
arbre 9y ago
Just a touch of optimism here. I suffered from depression for 7 years, then started meditation. I can say I am now very happy after 4 years of regular practice. I don't really care if my brain was a bit damaged then. Don't lose hope, everyone has a big potential of happiness just waiting to be explored inside. Have a happy life!
- anotherevan 9y ago
  Would love to hear more about the type of meditation you practice. How long, how often. How hard was it to get started and be consistent. That sort of thing.
  - prophesi 9y ago
    Not the OP, but I also got into meditation a while ago, and it helped a lot with my seasonal depression. I followed the instructions from John Yates' "The Mind Illuminated" book, which I actually found from someone on Hacker News raving about it. It's really straightforward with describing the goals and techniques for each stage.
    - toomanybeersies 9y ago
      Maybe I'll try meditation for my Seasonal Affective Disorder this winter. It would probably be a lot healthier than substance abuse. Cheaper, too.
    - justinpombrio 9y ago
      > I followed the instructions from John Yates' "The Mind Illuminated" book Can confirm: this is a very clearly written book. It reads like a reference manual for meditation.
    - strangegecko 9y ago
      I'm wondering if I've been depressed for too long for things to reach me. I've bought that same book, probably after reading the same post about it, but I have at most read a few pages, and managed to meditate maybe a few times since then. The world is complete information overload for me. I currently urgently need to: 1) learn a new language 2) practice meditation 3) learn react / unit testing / ML / distributed systems stuff 4) learn basic social skills 5) actually live life a little 6) ... I say "currently", but this has been true for years.
goodroot 9y ago
Hrmph. Poppycock. I grew up with depression. I suffered from it for over two decades. Between Ayahuasca and daily meditation, I have most definitely unwoven any of these "permanent" changes. You can always, always get better. The brain is plastic. The spirit is fearless.
- no_one_ever 9y ago
  I totally agree. I was/am stuck in a similar place, but during a wellness workshop my speaker reminded everyone that the brain is like a muscle: you can train it to perform as desired so long as you condition it every day. I'm not suggesting it is as easy as physical exercise, but this definitely changed my perspective on my personal well-being.
- oligopoly 9y ago
  Changing focus is key. It can be hard to change habits however instead of trying 'not to do something' you start focusing on doing something else entirely great changes can happen. Try it. You do need it enforce it few times but you can drop a lot of bad habits this way just because it doesnt matter to you anymore.
  - grinsekatze 9y ago
    And changing location can make it a lot easier to actually changing the focus. The only question is how you "bring the changed focus home". It's easy to redefine/-invent yourself when you are removed from the environment in which you suffer, but it does not solve the problem. What it does though, is help you realize that your suffering is not permanent and that it is possible to overcome it. The real work comes when you return to the "old" environment. Personally, after having been away for 5 years I got sucked back into "my old self" quickly after my return and I had to consciously close a few doors, let go of some friendships and have the courage to put myself out there again and trust that I am "ok" and that what i need comes to me. It's an ongoing process. Saying "yes" to what comes to me also helps create pleasant experiences for myself.
- u28uij 9y ago
  Changing focus/behavior patterns creates new neuronal pathways or reuses what’s there if relevant But it doesn’t erase old pathways You have moved into a new normal externally, but the physical traits (neuron paths) from the old behavior don’t necessarily vanish
randyrand 9y ago
Interestingly, anything you can remember for your entire life also permanently changes your brain =)
- adamsea 9y ago
  Nice :).
- cottsak 9y ago
  And things you can't! (where "can remember" == pathway thats easily accessible, many memories aren't easy to recover but they're still there)
ada1981 9y ago
I’d like to see the outcomes of therapitic psychedelics on this same protein marker.
yeukhon 9y ago
I am 26, and I suffered depression and other mental health issues for many years. I have to tell you: it is hard to survive. Till this day, 1 year after my first attempt, I still cannot recover from my mental illness. I am back to school studying neuroscience and psychology, but ironically I still end up being depressed. No words can describe the hardship a mental illness patient has to endure. It sucks and it sucks so much I have been cutting myself constantly again. Bipolar, depression, personality disorder. I have them. I overdose and continue to abuse my psychotic drugs on a regular basis in order to stabilize my mood and sleep schedule. As I am typing this, I am already losing my mind but I will be fine in a few hours, but the cycle will repeat. I feel like I am The Boy Who Cries Wolf, but in reality, I am not. Can I die? No. I am 26 and I have been hospitalized several times already. Friends will leave, family will be worried, and I can lose my job. On social media, I either have to stay positive or just keep my mouth shut so no one needs to see the negativity. I guess the reason I want to express my struggle in public from time to time is to because I want to outside of my social circle. I have pretty much abandoned social media in general. I depend on approvals and romantic love to substation my self-worth because I have none. I compensate my insecurities and lack of self identity by trying to be other people's "savior". If you have a family or a friend who is suffering some form of mental illness, yeah, give them constant reassurance. It's very difficult to find someone to talk to without being judged and offer advice such as "you have to control your mind." I can't when I am not in control of my mind. I feel possessed and that's what mental illness is. It's a possession of an uncontrolled mind. No need to report to my ex-employer / future employer. I am safe, and currently I am not employed anyway (well just resigned).
- mr_overalls 9y ago
  From a random keyboard in a small town in the Midwest, my heart goes out to you, Internet stranger. I'm so sorry that you have had to endure this kind of suffering. I had fairly severe depression for several years (although probably not as bad as yours), and it affected my self-esteem, like yours seems to be affecting you. It's just not your fault, friend. Easy for me to say, right? But go easy on yourself. You didn't ask for the combination of genes & environment that has predisposed you to this. I'm sure you have professionals to advise you on the best course of treatment, but for what it's worth, regular exercise has helped me tremendously, as much as medication and self-acceptance.
danschumann 9y ago
Happiness is sort of like a flexible muscle. At first, you may need to consciously and actively push on it, but it'll stretch, and over time, it takes less effort to stretch it further. Of course, it's not exactly similar, because sadness/anger push up against happiness, and stuff needs to be eliminated or looked at from another angle to remove the obstacles. I'd also recommend Wim Hof stuff.. the breathing technique is great.
avodonosov 9y ago
The article doesn't say permanently. There is no evidence that after depression is treated the inflammation remains.
RoyRoger 9y ago
Strange
richard___ 9y ago
Bio, psycho, social. You have to realize that depression is caused by everything from sleep, to the food you eat, to your daily habits, to how your relationship with your parents is, to how you treat your dating partners. A drug can't make up for all these things.
- runeb 9y ago
  It seems to me that the psychological component makes conquering the other two impossibly difficult for some people with depression. In that case medication could temporarily take that dimension out of the equation so the person can actually get some beneficial work done on the other parts of their lives. Medication should be seen as a temporary "crutch" in my view.
  - strangegecko 9y ago
    That's how I explain my history to myself. I have failed to get significant beneficial work done while I could. It is really hard if you're deficient in all areas. I'm facing biological / physical health issues, I'm socially isolated and I experience toxic mental patterns. Whatever I try, I will drag these issues around with me.
    - runeb 9y ago
      Good luck, I wish you all the best. Be aware of your negative thought patterns. Absolutist statements like your last sentence is not necessarily true and a real symptom of depression. Change your internal monologue and good things can follow. Change it to "at this moment these issues are holding me down".
- slothtrop 9y ago
  Right, it's a symptom. Dealt with depression for nearly 2 decades, and tackling all the baseline needs vigilantly, not least of which the social ones, had the strongest impact.
vectorEQ 9y ago
long term anything changes the brain, this is how neural connections work.... if you're long term depressed it solidifies connections, if you're long term 'happy' it reconnects others and solidifies those. as other person said, meditation can help a lot in this, and/or self-reflection.
w_t_payne 9y ago
Really interesting. I wonder if there is any evidence that corticosteroids like kenalog alleviate the symptoms of depression?
doktrin 9y ago
> Others may have persistent episodes over a decade with worsening symptoms, and increasing difficulty going to work or carrying out routine activities. Anecdotally, this seems increasingly true.
erikpukinskis 9y ago
It’s a bit of a rabbit hole, but Jonathan Blow’s “Ideas for a programming language about games” and all the subsequent videos have totally revolutionized how I code: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TH9VCN6UkyQ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TH9VCN6UkyQ The irony of it is I’m a JavaScript programmer and Blow hates JavaScript, he thinks it’s antithetical to his style of coding. But really, I think the ideas are very generic: he proposes what I think of as “data-driven programming” which in my head means “only move the bits you have to.” And that core idea maps to any substrate. Blow is offended by the idea of targeting something other than processor instructions, and Jai (his new language) develops along those lines. But I have no problem applying the same ideas to V8... you can really use any substrate... I could target Minecraft blocks and code in the same way. It just requires stepping back and asking what the minimum number of writes needed to get that substrate where it needs to be. And then rather than writing some monstrous declarative programming structure like Rails or Webpack, you just write the minimal function calls needed to make those bits flip and thing more. Blow writes a whole new language and compiler based on those concepts, but I find the ideas translate to any arbitrary API target.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

370 points by thg 9y ago

Actual paper: http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(18)30048-8/fulltext http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-03...

dpflan 9y ago

This article about treating depression is also on the front page at the moment. Seems good to link for more references and discussion: > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16492489 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16492489

jimmy1 9y ago

> evidence for neuroprogression (ie, increasing brain pathology with longer duration of illness) is scarce. I get that this is an academic paper, so they need empirical evidence to base their study, but this is a case, to me, of anyone who has ever hung out long enough with depressed people whether that is going to support groups or living in a toxic environment, that, anecdotally, it is very apparent that this is the case. Additionally, as a casual purveyor of recent neuroscience, the findings aren't surprising, not to take away from the accomplishments. Long term <any state of mind> permanently changes the brain. The brain isn't this static object where all your innate characteristics are bestowed upon you at birth -- your brain changes every day. Fighting this millennial-long engrained preconception is going to be the biggest challenge for a wide variety of mental health concerns in terms of getting public buy in to actually start solving the mental health crisis this country is currently facing.

JackFr 9y ago
> as a casual purveyor of recent neuroscience, pur·vey /pərˈvā/ v. provide or supply (food, drink, or other goods) as one's business
- jimmy1 9y ago
  Definition #2: a person or group that spreads or promotes an idea, view, etc. I will admit it probably wasn't obvious that's what I was aiming for -- to clarify -- I mentioned depression support groups and family that suffer from depression in my first sentence. I now spend time trying to support others who are struggling with mental health (my family included) with what I study -- articles, books, journals, publishings, and whatever lectures I have time to watch on youtube.
wallace_f 9y ago
Hopefully this will lead to more understanding about why people think and act differently than what we would expect or desire.

callesgg 9y ago

Nice that we are making some progress. Long term depression will effect the way you think i.e. your brain, that seams obvious to me.

Scriptor 9y ago
It's obvious that it affects your brain while you have depression. However, I don't think it's obvious that the effects would be permanent.
- mrec 9y ago
  /me fantasizes about non-permanent long-term depression...
- callesgg 9y ago
  If i learn something about depression when depressed. I have altered my brain. And that is what seams obvious to me. I guess the article was trying to make it seam like the alteration was "out of band" but that seams stupid to me. Occam's razor. If you are depressed your brain will pick up on stuff that fits in that bracket.

indubitably 9y ago

Well that’s depressing.

tuespetre 9y ago
Yes. It is a feedback loop, much like we see with the climate... aaaand writing this comment fed into it.
tachyoff 9y ago
As someone with depression, I thought the same thing!

xkcd-sucks 9y ago

"Long term depression" canonically describes decreased synaptic "connection strength" and is certainly not a bad thing (otherwise, your neural net's weights all tend towards 1). "Chronic depression" would be a much better term for the title.

grinsekatze 9y ago

Well, I think it is safe to assume that Long Term Happiness changes the brain "permanently" in the same manner. How about this: the brain is ever changing. Our previous states of consciousness manifest in our brain, which can be observed when we look at it.

cgriswald 9y ago
> Well, I think it is safe to assume that Long Term Happiness changes the brain "permanently" in the same manner. That would be a poor assumption. The "change" that was observed by the researchers was an increase in the amount of a protein which is an indicator for brain inflammation. Per the article, you see the same type of inflammation with diseases like Alzheimers. The takeaway is that depression is a progressive illness and current treatment doesn't address this progression.
- devmunchies 9y ago
  > current treatment doesn't address this progression I myself would rather see a prevention than a treatment. But there is no money in preventative care.
  - Broken_Hippo 9y ago
    "But there is no money in preventative care" Yes, there is. You just aren't looking in the right places. Employers. Employees. Insurance companies and those that pay for insurance. Governments that provide health care to some or all of its citizens. Taxpayers that fund those programs.
    - Groxx 9y ago
      That's great to hear! Can I bill you for the difference between what I pay for preventative care after insurance, vs what this implies the cost should be?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]

aantix 9y ago

Does the simple expectation of happiness exasperate the symptoms of depression? I found Dr. Jordan Peterson's commentary on this a helpful perspective. "Life is complex and tragic and difficult, and the problem with the public portrayal of the ideal state of humanness as happiness is that it makes all of these young people feel ashamed of their own suffering. They feel that if they’re suffering and if they find their life tragic in its essence that that means there’s something wrong with them, and instantly that makes it impossible for them to communicate anything real about their own tragedy." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySxVlE2gSrY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySxVlE2gSrY

tryitnow 9y ago
To be clear, Peterson's commentary is not original. M. Scott Peck, the Buddha, and literally 100s of other philosophers and psychologists have shared similar insights. Remarkably, those thinkers managed to share this insight without offending half the population in order to drive book sales and line their pockets. tldr; there are better sources of this idea than Mr. Peterson.
- cgmg 9y ago
  > To be clear, Peterson's commentary is not original. M. Scott Peck, the Buddha, and literally 100s of other philosophers and psychologists have shared similar insights. Remarkably, those thinkers managed to share this insight without offending half the population in order to drive book sales and line their pockets. What point are you trying to make with this snide remark? That sources should be disregarded if their ideas “offend” 50% of the population (a claim for which you provided no evidence)? That sources should be disregarded if they made money from book sales? This would mean disregarding almost all sources. That a commentary is "unoriginal" if someone in the past has "shared similar insights"? This is pure nonsense.
  - pault 9y ago
    One could argue that quoting a source who is a bit of a lightning rod for controversy makes the conversation more complicated than it needs to be if there is an alternative source available.

MrPatan 9y ago

"Long term permanently changes the brain" FTFY

Allower 9y ago

>25 people FACEPALM

kungfooman 9y ago

Do they mix up cause and result? Inflammation causes depression, not the other way around. Zinc deficit can drop the IQ by 15 points and causes all sorts of inflammations on the whole body, weaken mucous membrane, the immune system can barely work. That this isn't healthy for the brain shouldn't wonder anyone...

plg 9y ago

how do they know that it's not the reverse: that the changes in the brain they observe cause long term depression?

Florin_Andrei 9y ago
It's likely that both sides influence each other. But same (just in the opposite direction) is true for positive states of mind.

zombieprocesses 9y ago

Or changes in the brain cause depression? Isn't it more likely that depression is a symptom of the brain rather than the brain being a symptom of depression?

swearwolves 9y ago
This was my first thought too. The article doesn't mention this at all. It sounds like they just pulled people off the street, tested for the protein, and assumed causality. Wouldn't they have to had tested the same subset of people over time to make their claim?
cpncrunch 9y ago
There is a lot of research showing that psychological stress (and social defeat in particular) causes microglial over-activation and neuroinflammation, which then results in the symptoms of anxiety and depression. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5660717/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5660717/

RobertRoberts 9y ago

This just in, long term anything changes something. Don't forget your pills. /rant

arbre 9y ago

Just a touch of optimism here. I suffered from depression for 7 years, then started meditation. I can say I am now very happy after 4 years of regular practice. I don't really care if my brain was a bit damaged then. Don't lose hope, everyone has a big potential of happiness just waiting to be explored inside. Have a happy life!

anotherevan 9y ago
Would love to hear more about the type of meditation you practice. How long, how often. How hard was it to get started and be consistent. That sort of thing.
- prophesi 9y ago
  Not the OP, but I also got into meditation a while ago, and it helped a lot with my seasonal depression. I followed the instructions from John Yates' "The Mind Illuminated" book, which I actually found from someone on Hacker News raving about it. It's really straightforward with describing the goals and techniques for each stage.
  - toomanybeersies 9y ago
    Maybe I'll try meditation for my Seasonal Affective Disorder this winter. It would probably be a lot healthier than substance abuse. Cheaper, too.
  - justinpombrio 9y ago
    > I followed the instructions from John Yates' "The Mind Illuminated" book Can confirm: this is a very clearly written book. It reads like a reference manual for meditation.
  - strangegecko 9y ago
    I'm wondering if I've been depressed for too long for things to reach me. I've bought that same book, probably after reading the same post about it, but I have at most read a few pages, and managed to meditate maybe a few times since then. The world is complete information overload for me. I currently urgently need to: 1) learn a new language 2) practice meditation 3) learn react / unit testing / ML / distributed systems stuff 4) learn basic social skills 5) actually live life a little 6) ... I say "currently", but this has been true for years.

goodroot 9y ago

Hrmph. Poppycock. I grew up with depression. I suffered from it for over two decades. Between Ayahuasca and daily meditation, I have most definitely unwoven any of these "permanent" changes. You can always, always get better. The brain is plastic. The spirit is fearless.

no_one_ever 9y ago
I totally agree. I was/am stuck in a similar place, but during a wellness workshop my speaker reminded everyone that the brain is like a muscle: you can train it to perform as desired so long as you condition it every day. I'm not suggesting it is as easy as physical exercise, but this definitely changed my perspective on my personal well-being.
oligopoly 9y ago
Changing focus is key. It can be hard to change habits however instead of trying 'not to do something' you start focusing on doing something else entirely great changes can happen. Try it. You do need it enforce it few times but you can drop a lot of bad habits this way just because it doesnt matter to you anymore.
- grinsekatze 9y ago
  And changing location can make it a lot easier to actually changing the focus. The only question is how you "bring the changed focus home". It's easy to redefine/-invent yourself when you are removed from the environment in which you suffer, but it does not solve the problem. What it does though, is help you realize that your suffering is not permanent and that it is possible to overcome it. The real work comes when you return to the "old" environment. Personally, after having been away for 5 years I got sucked back into "my old self" quickly after my return and I had to consciously close a few doors, let go of some friendships and have the courage to put myself out there again and trust that I am "ok" and that what i need comes to me. It's an ongoing process. Saying "yes" to what comes to me also helps create pleasant experiences for myself.
u28uij 9y ago
Changing focus/behavior patterns creates new neuronal pathways or reuses what’s there if relevant But it doesn’t erase old pathways You have moved into a new normal externally, but the physical traits (neuron paths) from the old behavior don’t necessarily vanish

randyrand 9y ago

Interestingly, anything you can remember for your entire life also permanently changes your brain =)

adamsea 9y ago
Nice :).
cottsak 9y ago
And things you can't! (where "can remember" == pathway thats easily accessible, many memories aren't easy to recover but they're still there)

ada1981 9y ago

I’d like to see the outcomes of therapitic psychedelics on this same protein marker.

yeukhon 9y ago

I am 26, and I suffered depression and other mental health issues for many years. I have to tell you: it is hard to survive. Till this day, 1 year after my first attempt, I still cannot recover from my mental illness. I am back to school studying neuroscience and psychology, but ironically I still end up being depressed. No words can describe the hardship a mental illness patient has to endure. It sucks and it sucks so much I have been cutting myself constantly again. Bipolar, depression, personality disorder. I have them. I overdose and continue to abuse my psychotic drugs on a regular basis in order to stabilize my mood and sleep schedule. As I am typing this, I am already losing my mind but I will be fine in a few hours, but the cycle will repeat. I feel like I am The Boy Who Cries Wolf, but in reality, I am not. Can I die? No. I am 26 and I have been hospitalized several times already. Friends will leave, family will be worried, and I can lose my job. On social media, I either have to stay positive or just keep my mouth shut so no one needs to see the negativity. I guess the reason I want to express my struggle in public from time to time is to because I want to outside of my social circle. I have pretty much abandoned social media in general. I depend on approvals and romantic love to substation my self-worth because I have none. I compensate my insecurities and lack of self identity by trying to be other people's "savior". If you have a family or a friend who is suffering some form of mental illness, yeah, give them constant reassurance. It's very difficult to find someone to talk to without being judged and offer advice such as "you have to control your mind." I can't when I am not in control of my mind. I feel possessed and that's what mental illness is. It's a possession of an uncontrolled mind. No need to report to my ex-employer / future employer. I am safe, and currently I am not employed anyway (well just resigned).

mr_overalls 9y ago
From a random keyboard in a small town in the Midwest, my heart goes out to you, Internet stranger. I'm so sorry that you have had to endure this kind of suffering. I had fairly severe depression for several years (although probably not as bad as yours), and it affected my self-esteem, like yours seems to be affecting you. It's just not your fault, friend. Easy for me to say, right? But go easy on yourself. You didn't ask for the combination of genes & environment that has predisposed you to this. I'm sure you have professionals to advise you on the best course of treatment, but for what it's worth, regular exercise has helped me tremendously, as much as medication and self-acceptance.

danschumann 9y ago

Happiness is sort of like a flexible muscle. At first, you may need to consciously and actively push on it, but it'll stretch, and over time, it takes less effort to stretch it further. Of course, it's not exactly similar, because sadness/anger push up against happiness, and stuff needs to be eliminated or looked at from another angle to remove the obstacles. I'd also recommend Wim Hof stuff.. the breathing technique is great.

avodonosov 9y ago

The article doesn't say permanently. There is no evidence that after depression is treated the inflammation remains.

RoyRoger 9y ago

Strange

richard___ 9y ago

Bio, psycho, social. You have to realize that depression is caused by everything from sleep, to the food you eat, to your daily habits, to how your relationship with your parents is, to how you treat your dating partners. A drug can't make up for all these things.

runeb 9y ago
It seems to me that the psychological component makes conquering the other two impossibly difficult for some people with depression. In that case medication could temporarily take that dimension out of the equation so the person can actually get some beneficial work done on the other parts of their lives. Medication should be seen as a temporary "crutch" in my view.
- strangegecko 9y ago
  That's how I explain my history to myself. I have failed to get significant beneficial work done while I could. It is really hard if you're deficient in all areas. I'm facing biological / physical health issues, I'm socially isolated and I experience toxic mental patterns. Whatever I try, I will drag these issues around with me.
  - runeb 9y ago
    Good luck, I wish you all the best. Be aware of your negative thought patterns. Absolutist statements like your last sentence is not necessarily true and a real symptom of depression. Change your internal monologue and good things can follow. Change it to "at this moment these issues are holding me down".
slothtrop 9y ago
Right, it's a symptom. Dealt with depression for nearly 2 decades, and tackling all the baseline needs vigilantly, not least of which the social ones, had the strongest impact.

vectorEQ 9y ago

long term anything changes the brain, this is how neural connections work.... if you're long term depressed it solidifies connections, if you're long term 'happy' it reconnects others and solidifies those. as other person said, meditation can help a lot in this, and/or self-reflection.

w_t_payne 9y ago

Really interesting. I wonder if there is any evidence that corticosteroids like kenalog alleviate the symptoms of depression?

doktrin 9y ago

> Others may have persistent episodes over a decade with worsening symptoms, and increasing difficulty going to work or carrying out routine activities. Anecdotally, this seems increasingly true.

erikpukinskis 9y ago

It’s a bit of a rabbit hole, but Jonathan Blow’s “Ideas for a programming language about games” and all the subsequent videos have totally revolutionized how I code: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TH9VCN6UkyQ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TH9VCN6UkyQ The irony of it is I’m a JavaScript programmer and Blow hates JavaScript, he thinks it’s antithetical to his style of coding. But really, I think the ideas are very generic: he proposes what I think of as “data-driven programming” which in my head means “only move the bits you have to.” And that core idea maps to any substrate. Blow is offended by the idea of targeting something other than processor instructions, and Jai (his new language) develops along those lines. But I have no problem applying the same ideas to V8... you can really use any substrate... I could target Minecraft blocks and code in the same way. It just requires stepping back and asking what the minimum number of writes needed to get that substrate where it needs to be. And then rather than writing some monstrous declarative programming structure like Rails or Webpack, you just write the minimal function calls needed to make those bits flip and thing more. Blow writes a whole new language and compiler based on those concepts, but I find the ideas translate to any arbitrary API target.

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