7 ms·

Officials Admit Japan's 'Helicopter Destroyers' Were Also Designed for Jets

41 points by IntronExon 9y ago

Synaesthesia 9y ago
All this threatening and tensions and military buildup between the US, it’s clients and China as well as Russia sure makes me nervous about the future. Not to mention the recently announced movement of the doomsday clock to two minutes before midnight by the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists. It would be terrible if the world were plunged into another catastrophe like WW1 or WW2. Unfortunately the lessons from those wars seems to be leaders are only to eager to start war to extend their power and prestige. I’m sure nobody here wants war, it’s up to us to stop it!
- IntronExon 9y ago
  I wouldn’t worry about the clock, but the rest scares me too. Russia sending SU-57’s to Syria for example, to paraphrase Hugo Rifkind, reminds me of how WWIII starts in all of those crap novels I read as a teenager.
  - Synaesthesia 9y ago
    I am worried about the clock. These are sober experts who run it. There’s lots of things which could lead to a war. The tension in Syria, Ukraine, South China seas and over North Korea. They believe it’s the most dangerous times since the Cuban missile crisis and I think it’s serious. The US performs provocative military exercises outside the borders of Russia, China and North Korea. We have jets buzzing each other and having close calls.
    - tomohawk 9y ago
      Sober experts in unrelated fields. You can safely ignore their publicity stunt. Or not, and get stressed out. During the cold war, things were much worse on a daily basis. It was so common that it was hardly reported on. The presence of conflict does not mean war is at hand, or that we do not have peace. It just means that there are competing agendas between players with sharp elbows. Those 3 countries are extremely belligerent, and now that the US is finally countering them instead of appeasing them is a good thing. Russia took over a big chunk of Ukraine, and we did nothing. China made a grab for the south china sea, attacking the Philippines, and we did nothing. North Korea is engaged in nuclear threats and proliferation. These activities will cause other countries to take appropriate measures. It makes perfect sense that Japan, seeing the recent spate of appeasement on the part of the US, would realize it needs to take a larger role in defense of its own interests.
- tropo 9y ago
  War may be like earthquakes. Keep putting it off, and you'll get a 9.
  - Already__Taken 9y ago
    What if it's like heart attacks, You can only survive take so many then it's all over.
- meddlepal 9y ago
  Terrible loss of life, but both of those wars were catalysts for major technical and industrial breakthroughs... I'm curious if the tech advancements of those wars outweigh the direct deaths.
  - whatshisface 9y ago
    I hear this a lot, but it's silly on its face. What if the money was just put directly in to research instead? If any government action leads to spin-off technologies, I'd rather it be in the form of a space program than in the form of a war that kills many of the next generation's great scientists.
    - meddlepal 9y ago
      Practically speaking, the money would never be allocated without a good reason. War is a reason to do things. People don't buy into other reasons as strongly as "that guy over there is trying to kill you."
    - cinquemb 9y ago
      I agree, the argument is silly on it's face, but pragmatically speaking, until we can "convince"[0][1] every person alive (and the empowered leaders) to find other ways to allocate resources more efficiently such that everyone is satisfied to the degree of their own ideal resource consumption without resorting to conflict, I doubt things will change. Besides, def establishment is already clamoring for a "why not both option"[2] with increasing the development of capabilities to conduct war in space. [0] I have some ideas about how this can be done in practice in the future, though I suspect some could call it the War on Humans™ [1] https://elifesciences.org/articles/27069 https://elifesciences.org/articles/27069 "Tetherless magnetothermal deep brain neuro-stimulation" [2] http://spacenews.com/air-force-chief-goldfein-well-be-fighting-from-space-in-a-matter-of-years/ http://spacenews.com/air-force-chief-goldfein-well-be-fighti...
    - Fomite 9y ago
      “Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron.” ― Dwight D. Eisenhower
mc32 9y ago
With N. Korea provoking them for decades, I'm surprised they have kept article 9 of their constitution. It made sense to defang Japan in the post-war period, but unilateral disarmament is foolhardy --and they know it given they have SDF as a workaround the limitations... so given they are by no means foolish, why keep on being somewhat hamstrung by article 9, specially given N. K's behavior?
- ldp01 9y ago
  If I understand correctly- the pacifism of article 9 is broadly popular and part of their national identity now. It is an inspiring idea to give up weapons, even if it hasn't worked in practice.
  - mc32 9y ago
    The idea is noble, certainly, but foolish in practice as evidenced by their actually having armed forces disguised as self defence forces. Now, of course to keep up appearances, it does hamstring them --but as further evidenced by this "helicopter destroyer" it's more of appearances --it's like whaling but calling the whaling "cetacean research" rather than just whaling.
    - lostlogin 9y ago
      Most countries refer to their arms spending as ‘defense spending’. Japan seems to go through further contortions but it’s not like everyone else is that different.
  - yoshyoshi 9y ago
    I am Japanese, and I don’t feel that not all our society agrees with whole article 9 thing anymore. North Korea has been too much threat for sure... real missiles flew over our houses few times in last 6 months..
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  It is up to Japan to decide to do this or not, the USA is already ok with article 9 repeal and have even encouraged it. It probably won’t happen until North Korea and China rattle their sabers more.
oldcynic 9y ago
I would have thought they needed to rewrite their constitution before building these, not a few years after!
- SllX 9y ago
  Japan's constitution bans war and sets a percentage of GDP limit on their military, but it doesn't force them to forego having a military altogether. Japan is also a very rich nation, still 3rd in the world by GDP I believe and were only relatively recently overtaken by the PRC in that regard as they were 2nd in the world for a very long time. So even with a limit of 1% of national GDP, that is a pretty large budget and they still rank among the big spenders in terms of absolute dollars spent on their military every year. Given they live under the American nuclear umbrella, and American treaty obligations state that the US will come to Japan's aid should it be attacked, the Japanese have focused their defense dollars around a Self Defense Force, less blue water and more green water for their navy for example. Helicopter carriers rather than large aircraft carriers because their focus is on anti-submarine warfare, not force projection. If their focus had been on force projection and the restrictions in their constitution didn't exist, then the PRC would most likely have been stymied long ago trying to project power out into the South China Sea.
antiviral 9y ago
When the Japanese start naming these carriers things like Kaga, Akagi, Hiryū, and Sōryū, then it will really be time to worry :) (1) But seriously, given all of the provocations by North Korea and China, this should be expected and may even provide deterrence against others' destabilizing moves in the region. The Japanese haven't displayed any aggressive policies since 1945. (1) Carriers of Battle Of Midway 1942 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Carrier_Division https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Carrier_Division)
- anabis 9y ago
  It is named Kaga.
- sologoub 9y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/JS_Kaga https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/JS_Kaga
- hrktb 9y ago
  > Kaga, Akagi, Hiryū, and Sōryū Kaga and Akagi are classes of ships so there is and wil be a bunch of them. Hiryu and Soryu were specific ships, hopefully these names stay with them. It’s “funny” how all the army ship games and manga
  - sdrothrock 9y ago
    To add to this, these names are fairly generic and do not actually have any connotation of warlike-ness like, say, "Imperial Star Destroyer" or even something like a traditional US/UK Navy name "Victory." Kaga: A region of Japan Akagi: A mountain in Japan (perhaps familiar to fans of Initial D) Souryuu: lit. "Blue Dragon" Hiryuu: lit. "Flying Dragon" -- really a modified Souryuu, named with the "dragon" (ryuu) suffix to show the relation to the Souryuu class. The JMSDF also maintains several traditions from the Imperial Navy, such as the songs, ensigns, and technical terminology. One of the most well-known traditions that's been maintained across the two navies is the Japanese curry lunch served every Friday (there are even ads on trains for it as a tourist attraction). IIRC the current naming system was also inherited from the Japanese navy, if you were curious about why two of the ships you named are named after places. Wikipedia has some more information on that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Maritime_Self-Defense_Force#Culture_and_naming_conventions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Maritime_Self-Defense_Fo...
Arn_Thor 9y ago
to the surprise of exactly 0 people
dingaling 9y ago
Reminds me of the Through-Deck Cruiser episode for the Royal Navy. "Work on the design of the new cruiser continues. Our plans for its development are not dependent on the outcome of the Harrier trials" http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1971/oct/21/through-deck-cruisers http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1971/oct/21/throu... Handily enough, when the RN was forced to decommission its big-deck carriers in the mid-1970s the through-deck cruiser was outfitted for Sea Harriers and became a light carrier...
callesgg 9y ago
Thinking of "the pentagon wars" the engineer that designed that thing for helicopters and now when it is all done they announce yeah and also it should be able to handle f-35's. Featurecreap.

41 points by IntronExon 9y ago

All this threatening and tensions and military buildup between the US, it’s clients and China as well as Russia sure makes me nervous about the future. Not to mention the recently announced movement of the doomsday clock to two minutes before midnight by the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists. It would be terrible if the world were plunged into another catastrophe like WW1 or WW2. Unfortunately the lessons from those wars seems to be leaders are only to eager to start war to extend their power and prestige. I’m sure nobody here wants war, it’s up to us to stop it!

IntronExon 9y ago
I wouldn’t worry about the clock, but the rest scares me too. Russia sending SU-57’s to Syria for example, to paraphrase Hugo Rifkind, reminds me of how WWIII starts in all of those crap novels I read as a teenager.
- Synaesthesia 9y ago
  I am worried about the clock. These are sober experts who run it. There’s lots of things which could lead to a war. The tension in Syria, Ukraine, South China seas and over North Korea. They believe it’s the most dangerous times since the Cuban missile crisis and I think it’s serious. The US performs provocative military exercises outside the borders of Russia, China and North Korea. We have jets buzzing each other and having close calls.
  - tomohawk 9y ago
    Sober experts in unrelated fields. You can safely ignore their publicity stunt. Or not, and get stressed out. During the cold war, things were much worse on a daily basis. It was so common that it was hardly reported on. The presence of conflict does not mean war is at hand, or that we do not have peace. It just means that there are competing agendas between players with sharp elbows. Those 3 countries are extremely belligerent, and now that the US is finally countering them instead of appeasing them is a good thing. Russia took over a big chunk of Ukraine, and we did nothing. China made a grab for the south china sea, attacking the Philippines, and we did nothing. North Korea is engaged in nuclear threats and proliferation. These activities will cause other countries to take appropriate measures. It makes perfect sense that Japan, seeing the recent spate of appeasement on the part of the US, would realize it needs to take a larger role in defense of its own interests.
tropo 9y ago
War may be like earthquakes. Keep putting it off, and you'll get a 9.
- Already__Taken 9y ago
  What if it's like heart attacks, You can only survive take so many then it's all over.
meddlepal 9y ago
Terrible loss of life, but both of those wars were catalysts for major technical and industrial breakthroughs... I'm curious if the tech advancements of those wars outweigh the direct deaths.
- whatshisface 9y ago
  I hear this a lot, but it's silly on its face. What if the money was just put directly in to research instead? If any government action leads to spin-off technologies, I'd rather it be in the form of a space program than in the form of a war that kills many of the next generation's great scientists.
  - meddlepal 9y ago
    Practically speaking, the money would never be allocated without a good reason. War is a reason to do things. People don't buy into other reasons as strongly as "that guy over there is trying to kill you."
  - cinquemb 9y ago
    I agree, the argument is silly on it's face, but pragmatically speaking, until we can "convince"[0][1] every person alive (and the empowered leaders) to find other ways to allocate resources more efficiently such that everyone is satisfied to the degree of their own ideal resource consumption without resorting to conflict, I doubt things will change. Besides, def establishment is already clamoring for a "why not both option"[2] with increasing the development of capabilities to conduct war in space. [0] I have some ideas about how this can be done in practice in the future, though I suspect some could call it the War on Humans™ [1] https://elifesciences.org/articles/27069 https://elifesciences.org/articles/27069 "Tetherless magnetothermal deep brain neuro-stimulation" [2] http://spacenews.com/air-force-chief-goldfein-well-be-fighting-from-space-in-a-matter-of-years/ http://spacenews.com/air-force-chief-goldfein-well-be-fighti...
  - Fomite 9y ago
    “Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron.” ― Dwight D. Eisenhower

mc32 9y ago

With N. Korea provoking them for decades, I'm surprised they have kept article 9 of their constitution. It made sense to defang Japan in the post-war period, but unilateral disarmament is foolhardy --and they know it given they have SDF as a workaround the limitations... so given they are by no means foolish, why keep on being somewhat hamstrung by article 9, specially given N. K's behavior?

ldp01 9y ago
If I understand correctly- the pacifism of article 9 is broadly popular and part of their national identity now. It is an inspiring idea to give up weapons, even if it hasn't worked in practice.
- mc32 9y ago
  The idea is noble, certainly, but foolish in practice as evidenced by their actually having armed forces disguised as self defence forces. Now, of course to keep up appearances, it does hamstring them --but as further evidenced by this "helicopter destroyer" it's more of appearances --it's like whaling but calling the whaling "cetacean research" rather than just whaling.
  - lostlogin 9y ago
    Most countries refer to their arms spending as ‘defense spending’. Japan seems to go through further contortions but it’s not like everyone else is that different.
- yoshyoshi 9y ago
  I am Japanese, and I don’t feel that not all our society agrees with whole article 9 thing anymore. North Korea has been too much threat for sure... real missiles flew over our houses few times in last 6 months..
seanmcdirmid 9y ago
It is up to Japan to decide to do this or not, the USA is already ok with article 9 repeal and have even encouraged it. It probably won’t happen until North Korea and China rattle their sabers more.

oldcynic 9y ago

I would have thought they needed to rewrite their constitution before building these, not a few years after!

SllX 9y ago
Japan's constitution bans war and sets a percentage of GDP limit on their military, but it doesn't force them to forego having a military altogether. Japan is also a very rich nation, still 3rd in the world by GDP I believe and were only relatively recently overtaken by the PRC in that regard as they were 2nd in the world for a very long time. So even with a limit of 1% of national GDP, that is a pretty large budget and they still rank among the big spenders in terms of absolute dollars spent on their military every year. Given they live under the American nuclear umbrella, and American treaty obligations state that the US will come to Japan's aid should it be attacked, the Japanese have focused their defense dollars around a Self Defense Force, less blue water and more green water for their navy for example. Helicopter carriers rather than large aircraft carriers because their focus is on anti-submarine warfare, not force projection. If their focus had been on force projection and the restrictions in their constitution didn't exist, then the PRC would most likely have been stymied long ago trying to project power out into the South China Sea.

antiviral 9y ago

When the Japanese start naming these carriers things like Kaga, Akagi, Hiryū, and Sōryū, then it will really be time to worry :) (1) But seriously, given all of the provocations by North Korea and China, this should be expected and may even provide deterrence against others' destabilizing moves in the region. The Japanese haven't displayed any aggressive policies since 1945. (1) Carriers of Battle Of Midway 1942 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Carrier_Division https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Carrier_Division)

anabis 9y ago
It is named Kaga.
sologoub 9y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/JS_Kaga https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/JS_Kaga
hrktb 9y ago
> Kaga, Akagi, Hiryū, and Sōryū Kaga and Akagi are classes of ships so there is and wil be a bunch of them. Hiryu and Soryu were specific ships, hopefully these names stay with them. It’s “funny” how all the army ship games and manga
- sdrothrock 9y ago
  To add to this, these names are fairly generic and do not actually have any connotation of warlike-ness like, say, "Imperial Star Destroyer" or even something like a traditional US/UK Navy name "Victory." Kaga: A region of Japan Akagi: A mountain in Japan (perhaps familiar to fans of Initial D) Souryuu: lit. "Blue Dragon" Hiryuu: lit. "Flying Dragon" -- really a modified Souryuu, named with the "dragon" (ryuu) suffix to show the relation to the Souryuu class. The JMSDF also maintains several traditions from the Imperial Navy, such as the songs, ensigns, and technical terminology. One of the most well-known traditions that's been maintained across the two navies is the Japanese curry lunch served every Friday (there are even ads on trains for it as a tourist attraction). IIRC the current naming system was also inherited from the Japanese navy, if you were curious about why two of the ships you named are named after places. Wikipedia has some more information on that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Maritime_Self-Defense_Force#Culture_and_naming_conventions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Maritime_Self-Defense_Fo...

Arn_Thor 9y ago

to the surprise of exactly 0 people

dingaling 9y ago

Reminds me of the Through-Deck Cruiser episode for the Royal Navy. "Work on the design of the new cruiser continues. Our plans for its development are not dependent on the outcome of the Harrier trials" http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1971/oct/21/through-deck-cruisers http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1971/oct/21/throu... Handily enough, when the RN was forced to decommission its big-deck carriers in the mid-1970s the through-deck cruiser was outfitted for Sea Harriers and became a light carrier...

callesgg 9y ago

Thinking of "the pentagon wars" the engineer that designed that thing for helicopters and now when it is all done they announce yeah and also it should be able to handle f-35's. Featurecreap.