5 ms·

I suspect there is another level above that at financial independence, where you have enough wealth that you don't have to work. Where you can lose the fear of

by Nition 9y ago

I suspect there is another level above that at financial independence, where you have enough wealth that you don't have to work. Where you can lose the fear of losing your job, or go off and work on what you want even if it doesn't make much or any money.

cortesoft 9y ago
There might be a fine line there; humans need a sense of purpose, and for many people, purpose is tied up in our job. If you no longer have to work, and you choose not to work because your current job isn't ideal, it can be hard to get the motivation to search for a new job. At the same time, without work, it can be hard to find purpose. So you might be stuck in a situation where you aren't working and struggling to find meaning.
- leggomylibro 9y ago
  That seems like a cultural thing, though - many Western cultures wrap up personal identity in job description, but there's nothing biological to stop people from just laying out a purpose for themselves and pursuing it. There are plenty of financial reasons, but isn't that what we're talking about? If you have enough money that you don't have to work for the rest of your life, you probably have enough money that you can spend your time on whatever act of creation you find fulfilling.
  - Barrin92 9y ago
    >That seems like a cultural thing, though - there's nothing biological to stop people from laying out a purpose for themselves and pursuing it. Purpose without existential risk of failure is not usually perceived as genuine. If you have enough money and only put a fraction of it to use, you might create things, but you're never really risking anything. I'd wager more people join the military for purpose than the local paintball team, not despite but because the former really puts your life at risk.
    - TuringTest 9y ago
      > Purpose without existential risk of failure is not usually perceived as genuine. Says who? That may be associated with lutheran ethics of hard work, but doesn't look like an universal nor an essential requirement. Was Mother Theresa devoid of purpose because there's no way she could fail at taking care of people?
  - adventured 9y ago
    > many Western cultures wrap up personal identity in job description, but there's nothing biological to stop people from just laying out a purpose for themselves and pursuing it. That's just as common in many other non-Western cultures, such as Japan, South Korea, China. All three are materialistic and work-centric. Japan has extreme work identity, South Korea is barely a notch lower than Japan on that. Both put the US - and the entire West - to shame on work-centric life (for better or worse depending on your views on such things). China today is one of the greatest materialistic work cultures that has ever existed. You see it in all of China's markets and businesses today, and the move from rural to urban to seek greater materialism and elevated work identity. It's an intense fever there, eg: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/04/china-plans-build-new-city-nearly-three-times-the-size-of-new-york https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/04/china-plans-bu...
- GFischer 9y ago
  Indeed, after a point, working is not motivated by wealth - I know several cases of people that are wealthy and don't NEED to work, but they're in high-power positions and they don't want to leave that. One of them was the president of an insurance company and he was ousted in a Machiavellian political maneuver, because he fully expected to hold that position until his health failed him or he died at the post. You can see it in the current crop of 80-year old politicians in my country. One of them wants to go up for re-election and he would be in power until he was 90 years old...
- Nition 9y ago
  Personally I have so many projects I want to work on (where the motivation is making a Good Thing rather than getting rich) that I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be the case for me. But I can see it being the case for others.
- cimmanom 9y ago
  But just because you don't have to work doesn't mean you can't work. If you have financial independence, you have the choice to work or not, and if you do work, to do whatever work you find most meaningful. Without financial independence, you have no choice but to work, and for the vast majority of people without financial independence there isn't much choice of what kind of work to do either.
- dreamfactored 9y ago
  You can have as much purpose as a cat or you can build bridges, write poetry, study philosophy, invent new things, and help the poor. Your choice might not fit in with how you saw yourself but that's a higher level problem.
- deleted 9y ago
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- deleted 9y ago
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- AFNobody 9y ago
  > At the same time, without work, it can be hard to find purpose. Volunteering and creative experimentation fills that gap just fine.
  - Godel_unicode 9y ago
    For you. Parent clearly disagrees.
- onion2k 9y ago
  for many people, purpose is tied up in our job That's certainly the line that society wants people to believe. A lot of people want a job that gives them a sense of purpose, but I'd be surprised if as much as 2% of the workforce think their job gives them a sense of purpose right now. I think we're just lucky that the majority of people don't question whether or not their job is ultimately necessary, and choose not to bother when they realise it's a waste of time.
dreamfactored 9y ago
That's a level you can contribute to by being frugal. It's tough to get to but easier than you'd think. The barriers to moving to this level tend to be as much social and psychological as financial e.g. families, mortgages, need for security. The next level above financial independence is financial freedom (you can just get whatever you want, from shoes to houses) - off the top of my head I would guess this is probably around the 0.01%, which would be about 32k people in the USA. As an example of freedom, these people can buy nationality and avoid immigration limitations (going rate is ~$1-5m). The article is way off just comparing salaries. There are 3 social classes in terms of having a meaningful lifestyle distinction - those who have to work for someone else, those who don't, and those who have full freedom to decide where they go and what they do each day. All they did was compare a bunch of people in the same social class (somewhat shockingly the Romans considered this equivalent to a slave class).
- Qwertious 9y ago
  >That's a level you can contribute to by being frugal. J suspect that ceteris paribus, being frugal reduces happiness - by definition, it's not getting things you want to get.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - derekp7 9y ago
    Who is happier, the person who always wants, and always buys what they want? Or the one who learns to not want so much, and is therefore always satisfied?
  - ToJans 9y ago
    "the chase is better than the catch" Once you can afford something that was way out of reach before, you buy it and after the first few moments you realize it is not as great as you expected. Do this a few times, and you'll learn what is important. The more wealthy people I know do have a slightly above average car and house, but IME the biggest difference is that they have far more extreme - both in amount and in price - experiences, i.e. weekend trips, fine wining and dining etc.

by Nition 9y ago

cortesoft 9y ago

There might be a fine line there; humans need a sense of purpose, and for many people, purpose is tied up in our job. If you no longer have to work, and you choose not to work because your current job isn't ideal, it can be hard to get the motivation to search for a new job. At the same time, without work, it can be hard to find purpose. So you might be stuck in a situation where you aren't working and struggling to find meaning.

leggomylibro 9y ago
That seems like a cultural thing, though - many Western cultures wrap up personal identity in job description, but there's nothing biological to stop people from just laying out a purpose for themselves and pursuing it. There are plenty of financial reasons, but isn't that what we're talking about? If you have enough money that you don't have to work for the rest of your life, you probably have enough money that you can spend your time on whatever act of creation you find fulfilling.
- Barrin92 9y ago
  >That seems like a cultural thing, though - there's nothing biological to stop people from laying out a purpose for themselves and pursuing it. Purpose without existential risk of failure is not usually perceived as genuine. If you have enough money and only put a fraction of it to use, you might create things, but you're never really risking anything. I'd wager more people join the military for purpose than the local paintball team, not despite but because the former really puts your life at risk.
  - TuringTest 9y ago
    > Purpose without existential risk of failure is not usually perceived as genuine. Says who? That may be associated with lutheran ethics of hard work, but doesn't look like an universal nor an essential requirement. Was Mother Theresa devoid of purpose because there's no way she could fail at taking care of people?
- adventured 9y ago
  > many Western cultures wrap up personal identity in job description, but there's nothing biological to stop people from just laying out a purpose for themselves and pursuing it. That's just as common in many other non-Western cultures, such as Japan, South Korea, China. All three are materialistic and work-centric. Japan has extreme work identity, South Korea is barely a notch lower than Japan on that. Both put the US - and the entire West - to shame on work-centric life (for better or worse depending on your views on such things). China today is one of the greatest materialistic work cultures that has ever existed. You see it in all of China's markets and businesses today, and the move from rural to urban to seek greater materialism and elevated work identity. It's an intense fever there, eg: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/04/china-plans-build-new-city-nearly-three-times-the-size-of-new-york https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/04/china-plans-bu...
GFischer 9y ago
Indeed, after a point, working is not motivated by wealth - I know several cases of people that are wealthy and don't NEED to work, but they're in high-power positions and they don't want to leave that. One of them was the president of an insurance company and he was ousted in a Machiavellian political maneuver, because he fully expected to hold that position until his health failed him or he died at the post. You can see it in the current crop of 80-year old politicians in my country. One of them wants to go up for re-election and he would be in power until he was 90 years old...
Nition 9y ago
Personally I have so many projects I want to work on (where the motivation is making a Good Thing rather than getting rich) that I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be the case for me. But I can see it being the case for others.
cimmanom 9y ago
But just because you don't have to work doesn't mean you can't work. If you have financial independence, you have the choice to work or not, and if you do work, to do whatever work you find most meaningful. Without financial independence, you have no choice but to work, and for the vast majority of people without financial independence there isn't much choice of what kind of work to do either.
dreamfactored 9y ago
You can have as much purpose as a cat or you can build bridges, write poetry, study philosophy, invent new things, and help the poor. Your choice might not fit in with how you saw yourself but that's a higher level problem.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
AFNobody 9y ago
> At the same time, without work, it can be hard to find purpose. Volunteering and creative experimentation fills that gap just fine.
- Godel_unicode 9y ago
  For you. Parent clearly disagrees.
onion2k 9y ago
for many people, purpose is tied up in our job That's certainly the line that society wants people to believe. A lot of people want a job that gives them a sense of purpose, but I'd be surprised if as much as 2% of the workforce think their job gives them a sense of purpose right now. I think we're just lucky that the majority of people don't question whether or not their job is ultimately necessary, and choose not to bother when they realise it's a waste of time.

dreamfactored 9y ago

That's a level you can contribute to by being frugal. It's tough to get to but easier than you'd think. The barriers to moving to this level tend to be as much social and psychological as financial e.g. families, mortgages, need for security. The next level above financial independence is financial freedom (you can just get whatever you want, from shoes to houses) - off the top of my head I would guess this is probably around the 0.01%, which would be about 32k people in the USA. As an example of freedom, these people can buy nationality and avoid immigration limitations (going rate is ~$1-5m). The article is way off just comparing salaries. There are 3 social classes in terms of having a meaningful lifestyle distinction - those who have to work for someone else, those who don't, and those who have full freedom to decide where they go and what they do each day. All they did was compare a bunch of people in the same social class (somewhat shockingly the Romans considered this equivalent to a slave class).

Qwertious 9y ago
>That's a level you can contribute to by being frugal. J suspect that ceteris paribus, being frugal reduces happiness - by definition, it's not getting things you want to get.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- derekp7 9y ago
  Who is happier, the person who always wants, and always buys what they want? Or the one who learns to not want so much, and is therefore always satisfied?
- ToJans 9y ago
  "the chase is better than the catch" Once you can afford something that was way out of reach before, you buy it and after the first few moments you realize it is not as great as you expected. Do this a few times, and you'll learn what is important. The more wealthy people I know do have a slightly above average car and house, but IME the biggest difference is that they have far more extreme - both in amount and in price - experiences, i.e. weekend trips, fine wining and dining etc.