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But is not only about the money, humans can lose their freedom from major accidents, what if you get a bad update or bad sensors and your car kills some people,

But is not only about the money, humans can lose their freedom from major accidents, what if you get a bad update or bad sensors and your car kills some people, some engineers or managers should have to pay if they did something wrong and not point to the insurance company. I do not want some manager to think something like "don't worry about that bug, it is very rare so insurance will cover us in case something bad happens, we need to push the update now"

dx034 9y ago
> But is not only about the money, humans can lose their freedom from major accidents, what if you get a bad update or bad sensors and your car kills some people, some engineers or managers should have to pay if they did something wrong and not point to the insurance company. Software automation has already happened in other areas. If the bug was introduced on purpose or if there was insufficient oversight/negligence, people can go to jail. Not not any error automatically is a crime. If you kill someone with your car that doesn't mean that you'll be charged even if the accident was your fault.
- simion314 9y ago
  I understand but is there something in place to handle this issue, you would need people that will analyze the car software, the updates, the practices and decide who is responsible, my question is there something in place or we need to wait for this laws to appear ?
  - MBCook 9y ago
    Right. How many people will be horribly injured or die in ‘the incident’ that leads to the lawsuit that gets these companies to take this stuff seriously.
chrisseaton 9y ago
> some engineers or managers should have to pay if they did something wrong and not point to the insurance company That's already how insurance works. You pay by paying for insurance premiums. Why do you think people shouldn't be allowed to use insurance to cover accidents in just this situation?
- simion314 9y ago
  Say the manager knows about a bug in the AI but it consider that is more expensive to wait and properly fix it then push an update with the bug present. Should the decision of fixing or not a bug that can cause lives be influenced only by how much will insurance cost? I am not arguing that a person should pay with his freedom for a mistake, people do mistake, I am afraid that the bad behavior from software industry will apply to self driving cars, the move fast and brake things mentality,ship with known bugs etc.
  - chrisseaton 9y ago
    > Should the decision of fixing or not a bug that can cause lives be influenced only by how much will insurance cost? But the price of the insurance takes into account the risk of a bug costing a life. They know if they make riskier decisions their insurance premiums will go up. Insurance doesn't magically remove costs. It just amortises them. Loss adjusters have been experts at this for centuries.
    - simion314 9y ago
      >But the price of the insurance takes into account the risk of a bug costing a life. The possible problem is who sets this price for a life, it needs to be high enough but not absurd.
      - chrisseaton 9y ago
        But this isn't a new problem at all. Loss adjusters have already been doing this for many industries where someone can be killed. Insurance for normal cars already does it even! Why are self-driving cars any different?
        simion314 9y ago
        I am sorry I am not that good with financial business practice (I was raised to avoid them and never trust the banks or similar institutions, I am not from US) It is an interesting point how would an insurance company calculate the risk when there is not that much real data. If an airplane crashes all similar airplanes won't fly until the cause of the crash will be found and fixed in all the affected airplanes. I want similar responsibility from cars. I see how easy they get approved to test self driving cars without the citizens having to vote if they should be test subjects and I am worried that this companies have a powerful lobby and that the rules and laws won't be fair for the citizens. Other thing that worries me is that you allow self driving cars without a radar or any sensor that can detect a front collision, this also feels as letting companies to test their software on the expense of people lives. This are my opinions, I hope you can understand what some people like me think about this situation and why we think that this is something new that needs good and fair laws and rules for the citizens.

dx034 9y ago

> But is not only about the money, humans can lose their freedom from major accidents, what if you get a bad update or bad sensors and your car kills some people, some engineers or managers should have to pay if they did something wrong and not point to the insurance company. Software automation has already happened in other areas. If the bug was introduced on purpose or if there was insufficient oversight/negligence, people can go to jail. Not not any error automatically is a crime. If you kill someone with your car that doesn't mean that you'll be charged even if the accident was your fault.

simion314 9y ago
I understand but is there something in place to handle this issue, you would need people that will analyze the car software, the updates, the practices and decide who is responsible, my question is there something in place or we need to wait for this laws to appear ?
- MBCook 9y ago
  Right. How many people will be horribly injured or die in ‘the incident’ that leads to the lawsuit that gets these companies to take this stuff seriously.

chrisseaton 9y ago

> some engineers or managers should have to pay if they did something wrong and not point to the insurance company That's already how insurance works. You pay by paying for insurance premiums. Why do you think people shouldn't be allowed to use insurance to cover accidents in just this situation?

simion314 9y ago
Say the manager knows about a bug in the AI but it consider that is more expensive to wait and properly fix it then push an update with the bug present. Should the decision of fixing or not a bug that can cause lives be influenced only by how much will insurance cost? I am not arguing that a person should pay with his freedom for a mistake, people do mistake, I am afraid that the bad behavior from software industry will apply to self driving cars, the move fast and brake things mentality,ship with known bugs etc.
- chrisseaton 9y ago
  > Should the decision of fixing or not a bug that can cause lives be influenced only by how much will insurance cost? But the price of the insurance takes into account the risk of a bug costing a life. They know if they make riskier decisions their insurance premiums will go up. Insurance doesn't magically remove costs. It just amortises them. Loss adjusters have been experts at this for centuries.
  - simion314 9y ago
    >But the price of the insurance takes into account the risk of a bug costing a life. The possible problem is who sets this price for a life, it needs to be high enough but not absurd.
    - chrisseaton 9y ago
      But this isn't a new problem at all. Loss adjusters have already been doing this for many industries where someone can be killed. Insurance for normal cars already does it even! Why are self-driving cars any different?
      - simion314 9y ago
        I am sorry I am not that good with financial business practice (I was raised to avoid them and never trust the banks or similar institutions, I am not from US) It is an interesting point how would an insurance company calculate the risk when there is not that much real data. If an airplane crashes all similar airplanes won't fly until the cause of the crash will be found and fixed in all the affected airplanes. I want similar responsibility from cars. I see how easy they get approved to test self driving cars without the citizens having to vote if they should be test subjects and I am worried that this companies have a powerful lobby and that the rules and laws won't be fair for the citizens. Other thing that worries me is that you allow self driving cars without a radar or any sensor that can detect a front collision, this also feels as letting companies to test their software on the expense of people lives. This are my opinions, I hope you can understand what some people like me think about this situation and why we think that this is something new that needs good and fair laws and rules for the citizens.