4 ms·

Um, cars kill astronomically more pedestrians than do bikes.

tjansen 9y ago
There are two differences: a) It's something that I can control, as long as I stay on the sidewalk and the cars stay on the street. But I have no control over bicycles on the sidewalks (even if there is a bike lane and it's illegal, many cyclists just take the shortest path, because they can). b) it's a problem than can mostly be solved by technology. I would like to see automatic pedestrian braking being required for new cars. I doubt we'll see bicycles with any kind of emergency braking system in the next decades.
- IkmoIkmo 9y ago
  Sure, in isolation I would prefer a car staying in its car-lane to a bicycle driving all over the sidewalk. But then, this change doesn't have to happen in isolation. The Netherlands is a great example of a decades-long investment in pedestrian-first & cyclist-first infrastructure over cars. Cycles have their own dedicated lanes, increasingly not just painted on the car-lanes but separated from both the car lanes and sidewalks with elevations. And as they're ubiquitous and well-kept, cyclists have no real reason to drive on the sidewalk. Cycling on the sidewalk just isn't a problem of any significance anymore in most places in the Netherlands. But when I went to Berlin and cycled there, I often found myself on the sidewalk by way of convenience and safety. The solution isn't to say no to bikes and have cars instead because cars have dedicated infrastructure they stick to, the solution is dedicated infrastructure for bicycles and incentives + enforcement to make them stick to it. It works very well in the Netherlands, which was actually, at one time, a country with tons of development geared towards cars.
- IshKebab 9y ago
  Do you think the pedestrians who get killed by cars were somehow "forgetting to control it"? That makes zero sense.
  - tjansen 9y ago
    Why? Excluding children, most pedestrians who get killed by cars didn't pay attention while crossing the street. That's the no 1 cause for adults. The other one is walking on streets without sidewalks. (sorry, ony have stats in German: https://www.adac.de/_mmm/pdf/Praesentation11-13_192487.pdf https://www.adac.de/_mmm/pdf/Praesentation11-13_192487.pdf)
    - jacquesm 9y ago
      Where do you get these stats? Not that I'm doubting your numbers but I'd love to see an article or dataset about this.
    - learnstats2 9y ago
      OK but more people are killed by cars on the sidewalk than are killed by bicycles total. Evidence: http://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/article196605814.html http://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/article196605814.ht...
    - upofadown 9y ago
      A couple of relatively recent studies done in Australia came up with the result that driver error was the cause of collisions with pedestrians/bikes around 80% of the time.
    - akgerber 9y ago
      As a matter of simple physics, the only way pedestrians are killed in crashes is because cars are moving sufficiently fast to bring deadly force to a crash— which makes cars traveling at speeds over 20mph in areas with pedestrians the fundamental cause of pedestrian deaths. https://nacto.org/docs/usdg/relationship_between_speed_risk_fatal_injury_pedestrians_and_car_occupants_richards.pdf https://nacto.org/docs/usdg/relationship_between_speed_risk_...

There are two differences: a) It's something that I can control, as long as I stay on the sidewalk and the cars stay on the street. But I have no control over bicycles on the sidewalks (even if there is a bike lane and it's illegal, many cyclists just take the shortest path, because they can). b) it's a problem than can mostly be solved by technology. I would like to see automatic pedestrian braking being required for new cars. I doubt we'll see bicycles with any kind of emergency braking system in the next decades.

IkmoIkmo 9y ago
Sure, in isolation I would prefer a car staying in its car-lane to a bicycle driving all over the sidewalk. But then, this change doesn't have to happen in isolation. The Netherlands is a great example of a decades-long investment in pedestrian-first & cyclist-first infrastructure over cars. Cycles have their own dedicated lanes, increasingly not just painted on the car-lanes but separated from both the car lanes and sidewalks with elevations. And as they're ubiquitous and well-kept, cyclists have no real reason to drive on the sidewalk. Cycling on the sidewalk just isn't a problem of any significance anymore in most places in the Netherlands. But when I went to Berlin and cycled there, I often found myself on the sidewalk by way of convenience and safety. The solution isn't to say no to bikes and have cars instead because cars have dedicated infrastructure they stick to, the solution is dedicated infrastructure for bicycles and incentives + enforcement to make them stick to it. It works very well in the Netherlands, which was actually, at one time, a country with tons of development geared towards cars.
IshKebab 9y ago
Do you think the pedestrians who get killed by cars were somehow "forgetting to control it"? That makes zero sense.
- tjansen 9y ago
  Why? Excluding children, most pedestrians who get killed by cars didn't pay attention while crossing the street. That's the no 1 cause for adults. The other one is walking on streets without sidewalks. (sorry, ony have stats in German: https://www.adac.de/_mmm/pdf/Praesentation11-13_192487.pdf https://www.adac.de/_mmm/pdf/Praesentation11-13_192487.pdf)
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    Where do you get these stats? Not that I'm doubting your numbers but I'd love to see an article or dataset about this.
  - learnstats2 9y ago
    OK but more people are killed by cars on the sidewalk than are killed by bicycles total. Evidence: http://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/article196605814.html http://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/article196605814.ht...
  - upofadown 9y ago
    A couple of relatively recent studies done in Australia came up with the result that driver error was the cause of collisions with pedestrians/bikes around 80% of the time.
  - akgerber 9y ago
    As a matter of simple physics, the only way pedestrians are killed in crashes is because cars are moving sufficiently fast to bring deadly force to a crash— which makes cars traveling at speeds over 20mph in areas with pedestrians the fundamental cause of pedestrian deaths. https://nacto.org/docs/usdg/relationship_between_speed_risk_fatal_injury_pedestrians_and_car_occupants_richards.pdf https://nacto.org/docs/usdg/relationship_between_speed_risk_...