5 ms·

This. I'm not afraid of it, but it can take a lot of time. It's also extremely hard to estimate so gets avoided in scrum.

sanxiyn 9y ago
The thing is, "digging into someone else's code" is a skill, so you can get better at it, and it takes less time as you get better. It makes sense to invest some time at this skill.
marcosdumay 9y ago
> It's also extremely hard to estimate so gets avoided in scrum. So, one more time Scrum seems to be unable to support actual development needs.
- timrichard 9y ago
  My experience too. Velocity trumps everything else. IMHO, Scrum is like Communism. Okay in theory, but never implemented properly. And it's always the people at the bottom who suffer.
- _asummers 9y ago
  The inability to justify time spent in Scrum doesn't make the time not get spent, it just gets hidden, defeating the whole point. I abhor Scrum, but I would also argue that in this case the development task weight just gets inflated for "unknowns" on the task.Instead of a 5 maybe it's an 8, or whatever.
  - marcosdumay 9y ago
    The inability to justify time makes people avoid doing the work. Some people will strongly avoid it, other people will just weakly avoid it, but nobody will be more inclined to do it than if the time was taken into account. If your methodology makes people avoid doing important work, it's a bad methodology.
  - Bartweiss 9y ago
    I sometimes wonder what fully-honest Scrum would look like. I mean... 3 points: dealing with ticketing system. 5 points: looking into bugs/issues which will become new tickets. 5 points: taking questions and talking process on other people's tickets. The list goes on. I like agile, and I don't hate Scrum, but it's unpleasantly easy to end up running a planning/scheduling process which is completely distinct from one's actual schedule.
    - marcosdumay 9y ago
      Tickets based development can not work very well. We need tickets (hell, I have to write them for myself on personal projects, otherwise I get locked), but we need something else too. I also wonder how we can formalize that something else - time-boxing it is harmful, full attention to it is harmful, having to explain it too much is harmful.
      - Bartweiss 9y ago
        I have a strong suspicion that the reason points and time-boxing are so bad is that they're trying to weld two distinct processes together. Tickets are great; they bound tasks, provide a clearinghouse for all relevant information on an issue, and help monitor and prioritize needed work. The instinct to turn the "what work exists at what priority?" tool into a "let's organize our work" tool is totally understandable given all that, but I think it's a serious mistake. Tickets define tasks, but their times are highly variable (timeboxing is ugly, storypointed "investigation" tickets are uglier) and they exclude a whole bunch of non-ticket work: communication, bureaucracy, unstructured inspection, and so on. If you make tickets the basic unit of scheduling, you're suddenly building "buffer" tickets and padding ticket durations to account for "something always comes up". It's Goodhart's law in action; your metric - storypoints - becomes a target and stops being an accurate metric.
mikelward 9y ago
Or it could be handled as a Spike. It's not perfect, but it captures the idea of uncertainty by having a time-boxed investigation, the end result of which is an estimate of how long it will take to fix. https://www.leadingagile.com/2014/04/dont-estimate-spikes/ https://www.leadingagile.com/2014/04/dont-estimate-spikes/ https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/articles/2013/march/spikes-and-the-effort-to-grief-ratio https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/articles/2013/march/...

sanxiyn 9y ago

The thing is, "digging into someone else's code" is a skill, so you can get better at it, and it takes less time as you get better. It makes sense to invest some time at this skill.

marcosdumay 9y ago

> It's also extremely hard to estimate so gets avoided in scrum. So, one more time Scrum seems to be unable to support actual development needs.

timrichard 9y ago
My experience too. Velocity trumps everything else. IMHO, Scrum is like Communism. Okay in theory, but never implemented properly. And it's always the people at the bottom who suffer.
_asummers 9y ago
The inability to justify time spent in Scrum doesn't make the time not get spent, it just gets hidden, defeating the whole point. I abhor Scrum, but I would also argue that in this case the development task weight just gets inflated for "unknowns" on the task.Instead of a 5 maybe it's an 8, or whatever.
- marcosdumay 9y ago
  The inability to justify time makes people avoid doing the work. Some people will strongly avoid it, other people will just weakly avoid it, but nobody will be more inclined to do it than if the time was taken into account. If your methodology makes people avoid doing important work, it's a bad methodology.
- Bartweiss 9y ago
  I sometimes wonder what fully-honest Scrum would look like. I mean... 3 points: dealing with ticketing system. 5 points: looking into bugs/issues which will become new tickets. 5 points: taking questions and talking process on other people's tickets. The list goes on. I like agile, and I don't hate Scrum, but it's unpleasantly easy to end up running a planning/scheduling process which is completely distinct from one's actual schedule.
  - marcosdumay 9y ago
    Tickets based development can not work very well. We need tickets (hell, I have to write them for myself on personal projects, otherwise I get locked), but we need something else too. I also wonder how we can formalize that something else - time-boxing it is harmful, full attention to it is harmful, having to explain it too much is harmful.
    - Bartweiss 9y ago
      I have a strong suspicion that the reason points and time-boxing are so bad is that they're trying to weld two distinct processes together. Tickets are great; they bound tasks, provide a clearinghouse for all relevant information on an issue, and help monitor and prioritize needed work. The instinct to turn the "what work exists at what priority?" tool into a "let's organize our work" tool is totally understandable given all that, but I think it's a serious mistake. Tickets define tasks, but their times are highly variable (timeboxing is ugly, storypointed "investigation" tickets are uglier) and they exclude a whole bunch of non-ticket work: communication, bureaucracy, unstructured inspection, and so on. If you make tickets the basic unit of scheduling, you're suddenly building "buffer" tickets and padding ticket durations to account for "something always comes up". It's Goodhart's law in action; your metric - storypoints - becomes a target and stops being an accurate metric.

mikelward 9y ago

Or it could be handled as a Spike. It's not perfect, but it captures the idea of uncertainty by having a time-boxed investigation, the end result of which is an estimate of how long it will take to fix. https://www.leadingagile.com/2014/04/dont-estimate-spikes/ https://www.leadingagile.com/2014/04/dont-estimate-spikes/ https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/articles/2013/march/spikes-and-the-effort-to-grief-ratio https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/articles/2013/march/...