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Lost Art of Bending Over: How Other Cultures Spare Their Spines

479 points by happy-go-lucky 9y ago

scandox 9y ago
I thought this was going to be an article about being conciliatory...which I'm really good at.
- eboyjr 9y ago
  But you might also be really bad at it.
  - scandox 9y ago
    I'm definitely open to that possibility
- brain5ide 9y ago
  This was NPR version of clickbait.
moonbug 9y ago
Except to anyone who's ever been on an H&S introductory course.
- emeraldd 9y ago
  I'm assuming you mean "Health and Safety" and not one of the many other meanings for that set of letters. On the other side of the pond, where this article originated, H&S isn't really a thing. The closest thing we have over here (and I'm only guessing here) would be OSHA and as a "office worker" I can say they really haven't been a significant part of the my day to day. Might be different in a labor oriented profession though.
- bhandziuk 9y ago
  No H&S rep is going to tell you to lift of a soft back though.
ekidd 9y ago
> And the hip hinging is sprinkled throughout sports. Weightlifters use it when they do what's called a deadlift. Now, I'm by no means an expert, but I can confirm this. Powerlifters generally try to perform deadlifts with a "neutral" spine. This doesn't exactly mean "straight"—you can consult a good coach for details—but it's pretty close. Here's a pretty typical demonstration which is good enough to visualize it, though other coaches may differ in the details: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AObAU-EcYE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AObAU-EcYE As I understand it, the idea is to distribute the weight evenly around the spinal disc, and to avoid putting too much pressure on the front edge of the disc by curving the spine forward. A similar effect can be achieved by keeping the back closer to upright and lifting with the legs, as seen in several squat variations. Of course, the other things that may help are having enough muscle and not carrying too much abdominal weight. Anecdotally, weak spinal stabilizer muscles seem to contribute to some people's back pain.
- jimbishopp 9y ago
  I watched this Alan Thrall video a few years ago and it helped me understand the difference between a squat and a deadlift. The deadlift is the same (for most) as the low bar squat and the table bend mentioned in the article. No more back problems. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQuCi2h_kNI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQuCi2h_kNI
- mancerayder 9y ago
  Yeah, although neutral to flexion is fine for a lower back for a squat or a deadlift. In fact, with a heavy weight, good luck NOT flexing your lower back on a deadlift or at the bottom of a squat. The 'upright' squat you described is an Olympic lift variation - called highbar squat. I was going to send a link over but I hesitate to toss a random article or video (some of which are crap). But it's probably easy to watch an Olympic lift video from the olympics, as that's the cream of the crop. A squat positioning with more of a hip hingeing is more of a Powerlifting squat. I can definitely recommend Rippetoe's explanations here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhVC_AnZYYM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhVC_AnZYYM even though I myself do high-bar. As you can see (especially as explained in the video), the bar positioning plays a role in how upright your back is as you squat (since you mentioned that aspect). It's because of the center of gravity and the straight-path of the bar. It's obvious if you see an illustration of the bar path and these positions. However, a 'neutral' back, I don't know, I'd call it more of a flexed back (which may be neutral under load). A neutral back might be more of a gymnastics-specific thing. Regardless, core strength (meaning lower back, abs and obliques, among other things) is VERY important here.
Fifer82 9y ago
Just for other would be developers who are too young to know. Don't use a bad seat for 15 years and don't sit funny and not for long periods. Also find ways to stretch your leg muscles from the calf up every couple of days (A good 30 mins). Almost every time I had a major back outage stemmed from my left leg muscles which pull on your lower back when tight. A great invention would be a seat/table which started at 0 degrees and over the course of the day moves to 45 degree recline so that weight is constantly redistributed to different parts of the skeleton.
- emeraldd 9y ago
  Another one I've run into, make sure that the surface of your chair is level (left to right). There have been several cases where I've run into issues because either the chair seat itself was bent or a bushing at the bottom of the lift tube had failed introducing a few degrees of tilt. Barely enough to notice, but enough to throw your back out of line over the course of several hours.
- jefflombardjr 9y ago
  What about a standing desk or walking desk?
  - NittLion78 9y ago
    I think standing desks are great. I usually use mine for about half the day and adjust it to a seated position for the rest of the day. I will say, though, that while standing or sitting, your posture will dictate how well that time is spent - it's pretty easy to mess up either one. If you stand with your shoulders back and the weight evenly distributed on your hips and back, it should be possible to stand for many hours at a time. If you sit, making sure you sit up straight and keep your spine curved naturally and making sure you get up a few times to keep your circulation going in your extremities, you should reduce most of sitting's bad effects.
rebuilder 9y ago
I find most trousers make it hard to do this. Maybe it was better before the current low-waist style took over, but the way my trousers or jeans tend to fit, there's insufficient space in the back of the leg, in the thigh region to allow for proper hip flexion.
- creep 9y ago
  This is another reason why I advocate yoga pants for men!! :)
  - codewritinfool 9y ago
    username checks out
  - mkirklions 9y ago
    After making my own clothing(because sewing is the ultimate 2d->3d mind game), I would be okay with mens yoga pants. Easy to make, comfy, can be made in many colors. Guess I'll be back here to show off my Mens Business Alternative Yoga Pants... (would there even be an interest in posting it here?)
    - sophacles 9y ago
      The last couple years I've become more active in my daily life. My jeans just aren't allowing me to do random physical stuff i'd like - there are range of motion issues. (Mostly I worry that the crotch will rip out if stretch too far or step too high). I would love an alternative to jeans that doesn't draw attention and provides the durability of jeans in addition to better range of motion.
      - zedpm 9y ago
        I find pants from manufacturers like KÜHL [0] are great for this. They're sturdy, look nice, and have panels that allow for a lot of flexibility. [0] http://www.kuhl.com/kuhl/mens/pants/radikl/ http://www.kuhl.com/kuhl/mens/pants/radikl/
robaato 9y ago
For related explanations: Esther Gokhale worth looking up, and also Kelly Starrett - lots of videos
- flatline 9y ago
  What I've seen of KStar's stuff is good for functional strength, but for posture in general he advocates the more traditional, conservative PT approach of "just straighten the back", which has become controversial in more recent years as studies have shown that it's actually not that effective at reducing pain. I think Gokhale's book is a little more honest in not coming from any sort of academic background, even though I've met people who have exaggerated sway back postures and believe they are following the advice in her book. What I've taken away from years of reading this kind of stuff, of dealing with back pain, and of exercise and sports is this: the body is meant to move in many different ways, and the ones you don't use, you eventually lose. Each joint has a certain range of motion, with muscles to support the full range. Correct posture is neutral and relaxed, and there is no one, fixed "proper" form - humans are built to move. You should be able to hold a J curve, an S curve, and a C curve in the spine with relative comfort, at least for a short while, and should put all of your joints through their full ROM daily, and gently.
- NittLion78 9y ago
  Esther Gokhale's book "8 Steps to a Pain-Free Back" saved my back. I basically learned that I was sitting like an idiot for hours at a time, and walking in a manner that did not distribute my weight efficiently on my back. I went from hand-wringing over my ability to keep backpacking and playing sports at 40 to wondering when or if I'll ever have to pack it in.
throw7 9y ago
The kettlebell swing is a great way to train/fix your hip hinge. Squatting is also another movement/position we in the west have seemingly lost the ability to do well.
- peteey 9y ago
  I give my workouts thought so those are proper form. When I pick something up, I don't consider anything and curl my back.
  - sophacles 9y ago
    It's just habit. If you decide to do proper form picking things up, just practice a bunch and try to remind yourself to do it right. If you catch yourself doing it wrong, do it over right. Eventually you'll have the good habit.
    - nkassis 9y ago
      To add to this,I keep the weight low until I feel really confident I can maintain proper form moving up in weight even when fatigued. For example if I can do 10 sets of 10 reps of swing at a weight without compromising form, I would look to increase weight.
      - sophacles 9y ago
        Nice - My trainer went through that with me (and we still do it that way when trying new things) and the results were amazing. When it is time to go up with wieght, it's much easier. Interestingly - when doing very heavy weight (e.g. on a max out day) I know if it's too much early enough into the lift to bail with much lower risk of injury by practicing good form!
    - sundvor 9y ago
      Good call. I will try to reprogram myself the same way. You never know when something becomes heavier than you thought, and that's when your back gets thrown out. Especially anything involving children. I can imagine it being the same as indicating, or putting on my seat belt in the car. Seatbelt is always first thing on, last thing off - and I never change lanes without indicating, it's fully automatic and doesn't require conscious thought.
rowyourboat 9y ago
Isn't this just a very long-winded way of saying "lift with your legs, not with your back"?
- krupan 9y ago
  Some of us really needed the convincing, ok. In all seriousness though, I had heard that my whole life but never really knew how to implement it until someone explained it in this way. It's lifting with your hamstrings and glutes and upper back in reality, not just "legs"
  - jackstraw14 9y ago
    I always thought "lifting with your legs" was just hamstrings and glutes, and it took like 3 months of daily yoga before I realized this all works quite a bit better if you use your upper back instead of lower back. Then I found out I have hip muscles, and life has been alright since then. I don't know how many men age 20-50 that I've seen joke about "lift with your legs!" and then proceed to laugh as the subject just fumbles around worse than they would have, because they're not sure what lifting with your legs means either. The really bad part about all this, is that without good posture and defaulting to "cashew-style," you're preventing your lungs from using their full capacity. Which I think makes people slightly oxygen-deprived, more sleepy and daydreamy, causing them to sleepily lean forward into their screen instead of taking a minute or two and finding some good posture. I don't know how you can fix this either. Most Americans do destroy their lower back and then spend their rest of their life with a lopsided body, because they have no idea what good posture is, and it takes a long long time to actually fix the part of your mind that causes bad posture. You have to be willing to accept that your entire way of operating your body has been slightly off, for a really long time.
- ksk 9y ago
  No, because you can keep your back somewhat vertical and squat too.
- bhandziuk 9y ago
  No, because lifting with your back is totally fine. Actually lifting things off the ground is a whole body movement. "Lifting with your legs" is an ok cue if the person has never lifted anything before but the real cue is that you need to have tightness from hands to toe to pick something up effectively, which includes your back.
krupan 9y ago
Learning to hip hinge saved my life! OK, the back pain itself wouldn't have killed me, but I think associated depression might have. I first learned it from Foundation Training: https://www.youtube.com/user/DoAFounder https://www.youtube.com/user/DoAFounder Like the article says, learning to properly squat and deadlift really helps too
te_chris 9y ago
The jefferson curl is the secret weapon for loosening up hamstrings - be careful with the weight at first though.
pkaler 9y ago
+1 for weightlifting. This is basically how you kettlebell swing, snatch, clean & jerk, and deadlift.
deleted 9y ago
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kelukelugames 9y ago
Has anyone heard of the third world squat? It's a joke from weightlifting forums but also has some truthful parts. https://www.google.com/search?q=third+world+squat&oq=third+world+s&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.2466j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 https://www.google.com/search?q=third+world+squat&oq=third+w...
- deleted 9y ago
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- autokad 9y ago
  there is a yoga position like it. i have always squatted that way, so its easier for me than most. not sure where it came from, but if i am waiting in line, instead of standing there i drop to the 3rd world squat
- digi_owl 9y ago
  I oddly ran into a description of something like this from someone that was a prisoner of the Japanese during WW2. Something about how every Japanese soldier, officers included, would squat while doing stationary tasks. That is, if i understood the description correctly.
  - teachrdan 9y ago
    My Japanese aunt does this while gardening, and I can confirm that it's much easier on the back--although I barely have the balance to pull it off myself. Photo of the squat below. https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fjimlipschutz.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F07%2FJapanese-Gardener-Version-4.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fjimlipschutz.com%2Fpeople%2F&docid=JORo5hBymP7FjM&tbnid=M9JUcVxliEqyjM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwjM0qbUi8TZAhWmrVQKHcEUDdYQMwi0AihPME8..i&w=3000&h=1847&bih=953&biw=1680&q=japanese%20gardener&ved=0ahUKEwjM0qbUi8TZAhWmrVQKHcEUDdYQMwi0AihPME8&iact=mrc&uact=8 https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fjimlipschu...
- loverofthings 9y ago
  I can't do that squat. My hamstrings aren't flexible enough due to too much sitting in the first world.
mabbo 9y ago
Physiotherapists have given me a variety of reasons why, but I basically can't bend over in the way they are suggesting. > "Oh yes! In order to hip hinge properly, your hamstrings to have to lengthen," Shapiro says. "If you have tight hamstrings, they prevent you from bending over easily in that way." My hamstrings are incredibly tight and exercise and daily stretching haven't helped. The problem is my entire biomechanics are wonky. I barely use my abs, instead putting the load they would usually do onto my hamstrings, tightening them. The only solution is for me to get a specialist therapist and retrain myself on how to move, walk, run, etc. I work a traveling job, so that's basically not possible right now. On the bright side, I look totally normal in my movements.
- mikekchar 9y ago
  I need to get to bed, so I'll save you my (continuing) story of retraining my body to move. But this is from the mystical days of old when FAQs on Usenet contained magical information: https://archive.org/stream/Stretching_and_Flexibility_Brad_Appleton/Stretching_and_Flexibility_Brad_Appleton_djvu.txt https://archive.org/stream/Stretching_and_Flexibility_Brad_A... Hope it helps you!
- arca_vorago 9y ago
  Not sure what you've tried in the way of stretching, but I have some advice that you can take or leave, that I learned in my time in the Marine Corps, where I was doing MMA, running, lifting and swimming 5 times a week for about 4 hours total of exercise a day. (I got a bit fat and lazy as a civilian but I'm working on that these days) First, most people don't spend enough time on their stretches. The most common mistake I've found people have in their stretching is they only do a stretch for ~30 secs to a minute. Try spending exactly 5 minutes on each stretch, and I mean each stretch even if it's on the same muscle group, which brings me to two. The other main mistake I've corrected family and friends on is lack of variation in order to target the full area of muscle fiber on a muscle. They do one stretch in one position for a certain muscle, say, hamstrings, and think thats it. Even if you spend the amount of time suggested, if you dont target the whole muscle you will just have a small line of flexible muscle fiber while the rest of your muscle doesnt. Let me explain, so I'm sure you already know the standard hamstring stretch either single or both leg style. The best way to vary a hamstring stretch is to rotate your foot. First, to the inside, then to the outside. You will notice the different muscle fibers it gets. Then you should also try variations with your foot as far away from you as possible, and as close to you as possible. Try adjusting your hips on the single leg hamstring stretch to get slight variations as well. This is just an example, almost every stretch has small variations like this that pay off great dividends if you do them regularly. In total, during my fit days, I was spending about 30-45 minutes each morning and each evening stretching, with random quick pnf stretching done throughout the day. I know that sounds like a lot of time for a busy person, but, it's not that bad if you multi-task (I usually read news in the morning while stretching, and evening stretching is more meditative), and can you really dismiss your health so easily? Now, everyone is different and you might indeed have wierd biomechanics, but respectfully I think you might have allowed it to develop to this point rather than it being your natural state. My suggestion for you would be this, start with the above time/variation stretching suggestions, and throughout the day try to keep your abs flexed for 10 minute intervals a few times a day, maybe setting reminders about posture every so often. This is what I tell any friends or family who go on a get fit or fix my posture kick. Stretching is the most important part of either!
andrewla 9y ago
The strangest thing about this is that children know this without any input, and then go bad. I've watched my older son (now 5) go from having a perfect squat and hip hinge to starting to bend over "like an adult" with the arched back. There must be some reason that everyone, to some good approximation -- I'm in the US and this is what I see, does this the wrong way. Even people who know better seem to require conscious effort to do the motion correctly, myself included. Maybe it's because squatting and hip hinging are thing that require that you work into the position, rather than "falling" into it. It is strange that it follows cultural lines; possibly it's just imitating what people around you are doing, so fixing this would require some pretty large-scale brainwashing.
- Floegipoky 9y ago
  Watch for your son to start heel-striking too, if he isn't already. I think you're right about the large-scale brainwashing! But I think another essential part of the solution is going to be re-evaluating our society's relationship with sitting. I don't think it's a coincidence that the "tipping point" for a lot of children, where their movement patterns degrade, is when they start sitting primarily in chairs, rather than on the floor.
  - withdavidli 9y ago
    Think heel striking happens because of the large heels we have have in shoes. I wear zero drop shoes and focus landing on mid/front foot is much easier. Didn’t realize how different my walk is compared to others until my coworker recognized me in a different building because of the way I walk. Was also told to heel strike by my mom, makes less flopping noise doing so. She has a way of doing what blends in, doesn’t want her kids to be different, the whole largest nail gets hammered.
    - hinkley 9y ago
      You can find cheaper, but I've replaced the insoles in almost all of my shoes with Superfeet Carbons. They're a hair thinner than most insoles so they open up the toe box a little bit too, and having enough space in the toe box totally changes how I walk. (Ecco shoes tend to be low-rise already, but for some reason their insoles always squeak for me. I replace them for my sanity, not because the replacements are lower. But other brand have a taller heel). I still heel strike when I walk, but only barely. The knife edge of my foot lands just after my heel, instead of what most people do which is lift their toes a half inch to an inch. Ouch.
ZeroGravitas 9y ago
I'd recommend one of the featured experts, Stuart McGill's books to people having back pain. Straightforward practical advice but with an HN-level of science-based nerdiness behind it. Not the fuzzy woo that you find in many health related topics.
b0rsuk 9y ago
This is nothing new if you have bad back, like me. Pain can be a good teacher when it comes to proper form. As a bonus, I have a runner's knee, so my wall-facing squats are damn near perfect. I'm perfecting my technique, and nowadays I'm doing my squats by ear. I know my squats are perfect when I don't hear any creaking in my left knee. As for why we, westerners bend this bad way by default ? It may have something to do with chairs. Sitting on a chair makes you used to bending over at your hips, because a chair makes any other bending impossible.
blunte 9y ago
No, this is simply wrong information. Or rather, this is information provided to people who are otherwise terribly out of shape. Look up Jefferson Curls, or j-curls. These are essentially the exact motion that this article is suggesting is the wrong way to do things. Now without question, you can do stronger lifts and put less direct stress on your spine by doing squats to pickup things rather than bends. But full fitness and flexibility absolutely include bends like the ones this article is telling you to avoid. Wherever your weakest muscles and structure are is where you'll first suffer injury when you try to do something beyond your capability. So if you learn to squat to pick things up, that's fine; but if you neglect to maintain your flexibility, especially including spinal, you will get a back injury one way or another. Rather than bending over to pick something up, it will be turning over in bed, or coughing while carrying something. What bothers me about specialist advice is that it is usually focused on one thing, one specialty. But whether you're talking about human anatomy and systems or economics or mental health (or many other very complex systems), you cannot just focus on a narrow set of changes or fixes.
- nkassis 9y ago
  I'm confused by your comment, From my reading you seem to say the article suggest squatting but from my reading the article is not advocating for squatting at all. It's advocating for hip hinge where your back remains straight and your hips rotate using your hamstring to pull. Unlike the j-curl you mention the back remains straight. Similar to deadlift technique.
  - blunte 9y ago
    You're right - I went from hip hinge to squat because that's the natural progression of how you would adapt your movement in order to pick up something heavy. The posterior chain is the strongest set of muscles in the body, so the heaviest lifts will involve a squat (which is both a hip hinge and a leg bend, butt drop). I'm not referring to the standing negative squat as in weight lifting, I'm more referring to the dead life move done by people with longer legs and shorter torsos/arms. You probably know that there are many variations of dead life. What I was referring to, which I took the article to basically be advocating, was a type of bend (lift) that isolated the spine as much as possible. And I was arguing that use of the spine in a bending, flexing way is not inherently bad - it's just that typical modern (sedentary) life allows the core to weaken and reduces flexibility. Instead of telling people to isolate to avoid injury, we should be telling people to move more (starting lightly) to increase flexibility - then add weight to increase strength everywhere.
40acres 9y ago
Anyone who's performed a deadlift knows the hip hinge. I recently was testing my one rep max and due to fatigue my back arched instead of doing a proper hip hinge. The pain stayed with me for days and was pretty agonizing. This was about 5-6 weeks ago. Since then I've been deadlifting perfectly w/o pain.
- nkassis 9y ago
  Training Hip hinging (in my case with kettelbell swings and deadlifts) has helped me a lot with lower back pain. I definitively am more aware of my back when picking up things.
- amasad 9y ago
  I second this and would add that powerlifting, done right, would fix your posture and you'll naturally get into the proper pose for everyday things (picking something off the floor).
  - jackgolding 9y ago
    Yup I can't believe how much lifting heavy things improved my posture and reduced lower back pain!
- navidfarhadi 9y ago
  I no longer perform the conventional deadlift as a part of my routine (due to several injuries) but I completely agree with this. In my opinion the best ways to learn how to hip hinge are the deadlift and kettlebell swing. I've recently switched to the RDL (Romanian Deadlift) with significantly reduced weight and higher reps and I personally prefer it for my lower back and hamstring training. The conventional deadlift is a great movement though if you can perform it correctly.
  - 40acres 9y ago
    I also recently incorporated RDL's into my routine. Mainly to hit the hamstrings with more weight as the hamstring curl machine has a pretty low max weight and in general is annoying to perform. I was just recently thinking that the deadlift is probably the lift I enjoy the most. There is a rawness to it that just makes it so satisfying. Also it's usually the lift where you can lift the most so that adds an extra touch. The deadlift is killing my hands though. My callouses are starting to become a bother and my hands are pretty raw for any other lifts later in my session.
soheil 9y ago
Why make it about culture/race? Using anecdotal evidence the author is suggesting there is cultural reasons why this is happening. It’s not too far fetched to go one step further and make it also about race. I’m surprised people are ok with semi-racists articles like this perhaps because they come from NPR? All you have to do is remove one layer to realize the pseudoscience used in this article is saying some cultures and therefore races behave physically different than us (although in a good way, but nevertheless) without any rigid evidence. Yet no one here seems to mind that and not see how this leads to prejudice and exacerbating that we are different and everyone else is “others”. There are people in the US who also bend from the waistline.
- Jemmeh 9y ago
  There ARE physical differences in races though. It's not so major that you should treat people as more or less than you, but there's nothing wrong with pointing out that there's different types of people around the world. For example when studying disease you can see statistically certain diseases are more common for certain races or sexes. The article even mentions we still have "bending at the hip" in our culture as well especially in sports, yoga, and gardening. But we could benefit more than that. And posture is cultural in that it varies somewhat depending on where you are. A military bootcamp would have a culture that promotes a certain posture. Even between a English tea room and a Japanese tea room there's different rules about posture. Then you can also even consider the fashions in an area. For example people who wear heels a lot (even a small heel) vs someone who is constantly wearing flip flops will have a very different squat. People who wear heels a lot will have a harder time doing a squat while keeping their heels down due to a shortening of the muscle on the back of their leg.
- edanm 9y ago
  Does anyone really think there are no culture differences at all? Is this the position of anyone on any part of the political/ideological spectrum? I mean, I can say that there is such a thing as a different diet between different countries/cultures, and I don't think I'm being racist or wrong. I'm just stating facts that literally everyone agrees with.
- deleted 9y ago
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dragontamer 9y ago
Reading this article just makes me ask... Do people deadlift? https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/how-to-deadlift-beginners-guide.html https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/how-to-deadlift-beginners-g... I'm not a very strong person. But Deadlifts are part of my routine. Again, not for athletic purposes of anything, but "Practicing to pick things up" is basically a Deadlift. And every day, we bend over to pickup small objects, and occasionally, we bend over to pick up heavier objects (ie: Grocery shopping: Picking up bags off the floor or whatever). So the deadlift is the most straightforward way to do this maneuver. I mean, its no Olympic level "Snatch" or whatever. But the basic deadlift has to be one of the more "practical" weightlifting moves to routinely practice. Its also an overall good, full body exercise. Doing the deadlift improperly can result in bad muscle strain and maybe even injury... but that's what makes practicing to do it properly even more important.
mkagenius 9y ago
Any idea when a curved back isn’t bad? I mean we have the ability to curve the back for some reason.. right? Feels weird to completely make the back stiff forever
- toasterlovin 9y ago
  The real danger with your spine is rotation under load. So, picking up something heavy, then rotating your torso instead of turning your entire body. TBH, you probably won't hurt your spine by curling your back. Mostly it's just a poor way to transmit force between the floor and whatever load you're carrying. You could hurt the muscles involved in making your back erect, though.
newnewpdro 9y ago
I basically stopped using furniture altogether years ago because it became apparent how it was interfering with the natural preservation of my ability to bend over and get down and up from the floor without effort. Observe your average older person who lives a life employing furniture pick something up off the floor, or pick themselves off the floor. It's not uncommon for them to need assistance in the latter case! If they had no furniture all their life, unless they were injured, they wouldn't have these problems because they couldn't possibly go through life without being able to get off the floor regularly having no furniture around. It's also proven to encourage me to move more throughout the day, as well as stretch more. The floor is spacious, it's luxurious, and unstructured. It invites me to move around, stretch, and reconfigure myself when one position gets stale or something is going numb. Furniture is structured, it's almost like bondage. You must sit in this chair design this way, your back must be up at this angle, your legs go here. It's totally unnatural and honestly seems like an awful compromise in part to increase density, and perhaps project wealth over those who live in furniture-less, largely empty rooms, or maybe it's just good business to sell furniture to everyone. And in the process it's preventing you from having to bring yourself to the floor and back up to standing height dozens of times every day. There were some studies I read about geographic regions with the largest concentrations of the oldest living people. I don't have the link handy, but one of the things they observed was an exceptional number of these places didn't use furniture. They noted how the lack of furniture naturally kept the people limber into old age. I love sitting on the floor now. It's become incredibly uncomfortable and simply annoying for me to sit on furniture. When I'm with my peers, and I'm not even that old - if we all end up sitting on the floor somewhere, I'm shocked at how visible the difference is already. Many adults are not able to be comfortable on the floor becuase they don't have the necessary flexibility for the variety of floor positions that would otherwise be available to them. It's because they stopped spending time on the floor after childhood, because in the west successful adults use furniture. You want to be successful, don't you?
- Toast_25 9y ago
  That's a good idea! How do you use your computer/laptop? What about eating? And how long did it take for you to get used to not having furniture?
magic_beans 9y ago
It’s called a deadlift.
lerie82 9y ago
I personally think this is all bullshit. "Usually everybody immediately moves their heads and looks down." of course people look down, how the hell are we going to locate it to pick it up. There is an image they show where the woman on the right clearly is bending over improperly, so I can't sit here and believe this guy says Americans do it wrong when clearly it's a matter of personal choice. This article also compares the human body to a cloth... There is also a video of a woman picking up something yet she also looks down, so, is she doing it wrong like he said in the beginning of the article? "Weightlifters use it when they do what's called a deadlift.", this has nothing to do with picking a piece of fruit or feather off the floor, it's completely different. Then close to the end of the article they drop the bomb on us and tell us they have no data to back up anything they said in the article, just opinions of the doctors and a spine specialist at stanford. also, how is this tech news? it's a shameless plug for a business who hasn't updated their site design since 2001, this is a tech news blog right?
tiredwired 9y ago
I blame it on school PE classes where they make you touch your toes repeatedly. They act like there is something wrong with you if you are not flexible that way.
fouc 9y ago
We need to bring back squat toilets into western society. Get rid of the sitting toilets. Then we'll end up with strong legs and be more likely to hip hinge properly. Also less hemorrhoids.
- supergetting 9y ago
  I've been on those toilets before at street-side filthy restrooms in hot & humid summer days, uncleaned vomit and splattered excrements of drunk people from the night before. It's the worst when you're feeling sick yourself from too much drink, and you have to squat for 30 minutes. You sweat like a pig and swim in a urine-covered floor; it's a full work-out session every time you go into a bathroom like that.
loorinm 9y ago
I haven’t seen anyone posit a theory as to why Western people bend this way, so I’ll go: Extreme sex and body shame. We receive, from a young age, shame about exposing - even with clothing on - “sexual” parts of the body - breasts, butt, and crotch. Women are strongly motivated to tuck in the backside because it is both shamed and unsafe in our society to stick out our butts. This is why women squat to tie their shoes in public. Rape, assault, catcalling, is so prevalent and a constant awareness for women in public. This pose would also be considered “unprofessional” in a workplace. Men are discouraged as well, lest they incur the worst male insult in our society : “gay”. Men are shamed and called gay from childhood if they take this hip-hinge pose. So they stop. Bending at the waist exposes the vulnerable backside in a way that is unsafe in historically Puritanical Western society.
- jeffdavis 9y ago
  It seems like you are reaching pretty far for a social explanation. It seems more reasonable to start with lifestyle and work style. Maybe lots of sitting and standing are to blame? Maybe something about industrialization or household conveniences (washing machine, etc.)? I suppose there are some social factors, but I would assume they are secondary unless I see evidence otherwise.
  - loorinm 9y ago
    I don't think I'm reaching. Read the comments below, about the fact that children learn this spine-bend posture early on, way before any sedentary lifestyle. I'm pretty sure 3-year-olds aren't using washing machines either. I'm speaking from firsthand personal experience, and overwhelming experience seeing others go through the same cultural conditioning I described in my post.
    - jeffdavis 9y ago
      How is 3 years old "way before any sedentary lifestyle"? I consider my family moderately active, but my 3 year old is certainly familiar with the couch. In more agrarian societies, there are probably a lot fewer opportunities to sit somewhere comfortably. And did you consider agrarian but sexually-conservative regions (maybe India or the Middle East?), or developed but sexually-liberal regions (maybe Mediterranean?), to see if those line up with your theory?

scandox 9y ago

I thought this was going to be an article about being conciliatory...which I'm really good at.

eboyjr 9y ago
But you might also be really bad at it.
- scandox 9y ago
  I'm definitely open to that possibility
brain5ide 9y ago
This was NPR version of clickbait.

moonbug 9y ago

Except to anyone who's ever been on an H&S introductory course.

emeraldd 9y ago
I'm assuming you mean "Health and Safety" and not one of the many other meanings for that set of letters. On the other side of the pond, where this article originated, H&S isn't really a thing. The closest thing we have over here (and I'm only guessing here) would be OSHA and as a "office worker" I can say they really haven't been a significant part of the my day to day. Might be different in a labor oriented profession though.
bhandziuk 9y ago
No H&S rep is going to tell you to lift of a soft back though.

ekidd 9y ago

> And the hip hinging is sprinkled throughout sports. Weightlifters use it when they do what's called a deadlift. Now, I'm by no means an expert, but I can confirm this. Powerlifters generally try to perform deadlifts with a "neutral" spine. This doesn't exactly mean "straight"—you can consult a good coach for details—but it's pretty close. Here's a pretty typical demonstration which is good enough to visualize it, though other coaches may differ in the details: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AObAU-EcYE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AObAU-EcYE As I understand it, the idea is to distribute the weight evenly around the spinal disc, and to avoid putting too much pressure on the front edge of the disc by curving the spine forward. A similar effect can be achieved by keeping the back closer to upright and lifting with the legs, as seen in several squat variations. Of course, the other things that may help are having enough muscle and not carrying too much abdominal weight. Anecdotally, weak spinal stabilizer muscles seem to contribute to some people's back pain.

jimbishopp 9y ago
I watched this Alan Thrall video a few years ago and it helped me understand the difference between a squat and a deadlift. The deadlift is the same (for most) as the low bar squat and the table bend mentioned in the article. No more back problems. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQuCi2h_kNI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQuCi2h_kNI
mancerayder 9y ago
Yeah, although neutral to flexion is fine for a lower back for a squat or a deadlift. In fact, with a heavy weight, good luck NOT flexing your lower back on a deadlift or at the bottom of a squat. The 'upright' squat you described is an Olympic lift variation - called highbar squat. I was going to send a link over but I hesitate to toss a random article or video (some of which are crap). But it's probably easy to watch an Olympic lift video from the olympics, as that's the cream of the crop. A squat positioning with more of a hip hingeing is more of a Powerlifting squat. I can definitely recommend Rippetoe's explanations here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhVC_AnZYYM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhVC_AnZYYM even though I myself do high-bar. As you can see (especially as explained in the video), the bar positioning plays a role in how upright your back is as you squat (since you mentioned that aspect). It's because of the center of gravity and the straight-path of the bar. It's obvious if you see an illustration of the bar path and these positions. However, a 'neutral' back, I don't know, I'd call it more of a flexed back (which may be neutral under load). A neutral back might be more of a gymnastics-specific thing. Regardless, core strength (meaning lower back, abs and obliques, among other things) is VERY important here.

Fifer82 9y ago

Just for other would be developers who are too young to know. Don't use a bad seat for 15 years and don't sit funny and not for long periods. Also find ways to stretch your leg muscles from the calf up every couple of days (A good 30 mins). Almost every time I had a major back outage stemmed from my left leg muscles which pull on your lower back when tight. A great invention would be a seat/table which started at 0 degrees and over the course of the day moves to 45 degree recline so that weight is constantly redistributed to different parts of the skeleton.

emeraldd 9y ago
Another one I've run into, make sure that the surface of your chair is level (left to right). There have been several cases where I've run into issues because either the chair seat itself was bent or a bushing at the bottom of the lift tube had failed introducing a few degrees of tilt. Barely enough to notice, but enough to throw your back out of line over the course of several hours.
jefflombardjr 9y ago
What about a standing desk or walking desk?
- NittLion78 9y ago
  I think standing desks are great. I usually use mine for about half the day and adjust it to a seated position for the rest of the day. I will say, though, that while standing or sitting, your posture will dictate how well that time is spent - it's pretty easy to mess up either one. If you stand with your shoulders back and the weight evenly distributed on your hips and back, it should be possible to stand for many hours at a time. If you sit, making sure you sit up straight and keep your spine curved naturally and making sure you get up a few times to keep your circulation going in your extremities, you should reduce most of sitting's bad effects.

rebuilder 9y ago

I find most trousers make it hard to do this. Maybe it was better before the current low-waist style took over, but the way my trousers or jeans tend to fit, there's insufficient space in the back of the leg, in the thigh region to allow for proper hip flexion.

creep 9y ago
This is another reason why I advocate yoga pants for men!! :)
- codewritinfool 9y ago
  username checks out
- mkirklions 9y ago
  After making my own clothing(because sewing is the ultimate 2d->3d mind game), I would be okay with mens yoga pants. Easy to make, comfy, can be made in many colors. Guess I'll be back here to show off my Mens Business Alternative Yoga Pants... (would there even be an interest in posting it here?)
  - sophacles 9y ago
    The last couple years I've become more active in my daily life. My jeans just aren't allowing me to do random physical stuff i'd like - there are range of motion issues. (Mostly I worry that the crotch will rip out if stretch too far or step too high). I would love an alternative to jeans that doesn't draw attention and provides the durability of jeans in addition to better range of motion.
    - zedpm 9y ago
      I find pants from manufacturers like KÜHL [0] are great for this. They're sturdy, look nice, and have panels that allow for a lot of flexibility. [0] http://www.kuhl.com/kuhl/mens/pants/radikl/ http://www.kuhl.com/kuhl/mens/pants/radikl/

robaato 9y ago

For related explanations: Esther Gokhale worth looking up, and also Kelly Starrett - lots of videos

flatline 9y ago
What I've seen of KStar's stuff is good for functional strength, but for posture in general he advocates the more traditional, conservative PT approach of "just straighten the back", which has become controversial in more recent years as studies have shown that it's actually not that effective at reducing pain. I think Gokhale's book is a little more honest in not coming from any sort of academic background, even though I've met people who have exaggerated sway back postures and believe they are following the advice in her book. What I've taken away from years of reading this kind of stuff, of dealing with back pain, and of exercise and sports is this: the body is meant to move in many different ways, and the ones you don't use, you eventually lose. Each joint has a certain range of motion, with muscles to support the full range. Correct posture is neutral and relaxed, and there is no one, fixed "proper" form - humans are built to move. You should be able to hold a J curve, an S curve, and a C curve in the spine with relative comfort, at least for a short while, and should put all of your joints through their full ROM daily, and gently.
NittLion78 9y ago
Esther Gokhale's book "8 Steps to a Pain-Free Back" saved my back. I basically learned that I was sitting like an idiot for hours at a time, and walking in a manner that did not distribute my weight efficiently on my back. I went from hand-wringing over my ability to keep backpacking and playing sports at 40 to wondering when or if I'll ever have to pack it in.

throw7 9y ago

The kettlebell swing is a great way to train/fix your hip hinge. Squatting is also another movement/position we in the west have seemingly lost the ability to do well.

peteey 9y ago
I give my workouts thought so those are proper form. When I pick something up, I don't consider anything and curl my back.
- sophacles 9y ago
  It's just habit. If you decide to do proper form picking things up, just practice a bunch and try to remind yourself to do it right. If you catch yourself doing it wrong, do it over right. Eventually you'll have the good habit.
  - nkassis 9y ago
    To add to this,I keep the weight low until I feel really confident I can maintain proper form moving up in weight even when fatigued. For example if I can do 10 sets of 10 reps of swing at a weight without compromising form, I would look to increase weight.
    - sophacles 9y ago
      Nice - My trainer went through that with me (and we still do it that way when trying new things) and the results were amazing. When it is time to go up with wieght, it's much easier. Interestingly - when doing very heavy weight (e.g. on a max out day) I know if it's too much early enough into the lift to bail with much lower risk of injury by practicing good form!
  - sundvor 9y ago
    Good call. I will try to reprogram myself the same way. You never know when something becomes heavier than you thought, and that's when your back gets thrown out. Especially anything involving children. I can imagine it being the same as indicating, or putting on my seat belt in the car. Seatbelt is always first thing on, last thing off - and I never change lanes without indicating, it's fully automatic and doesn't require conscious thought.

rowyourboat 9y ago

Isn't this just a very long-winded way of saying "lift with your legs, not with your back"?

krupan 9y ago
Some of us really needed the convincing, ok. In all seriousness though, I had heard that my whole life but never really knew how to implement it until someone explained it in this way. It's lifting with your hamstrings and glutes and upper back in reality, not just "legs"
- jackstraw14 9y ago
  I always thought "lifting with your legs" was just hamstrings and glutes, and it took like 3 months of daily yoga before I realized this all works quite a bit better if you use your upper back instead of lower back. Then I found out I have hip muscles, and life has been alright since then. I don't know how many men age 20-50 that I've seen joke about "lift with your legs!" and then proceed to laugh as the subject just fumbles around worse than they would have, because they're not sure what lifting with your legs means either. The really bad part about all this, is that without good posture and defaulting to "cashew-style," you're preventing your lungs from using their full capacity. Which I think makes people slightly oxygen-deprived, more sleepy and daydreamy, causing them to sleepily lean forward into their screen instead of taking a minute or two and finding some good posture. I don't know how you can fix this either. Most Americans do destroy their lower back and then spend their rest of their life with a lopsided body, because they have no idea what good posture is, and it takes a long long time to actually fix the part of your mind that causes bad posture. You have to be willing to accept that your entire way of operating your body has been slightly off, for a really long time.
ksk 9y ago
No, because you can keep your back somewhat vertical and squat too.
bhandziuk 9y ago
No, because lifting with your back is totally fine. Actually lifting things off the ground is a whole body movement. "Lifting with your legs" is an ok cue if the person has never lifted anything before but the real cue is that you need to have tightness from hands to toe to pick something up effectively, which includes your back.

krupan 9y ago

Learning to hip hinge saved my life! OK, the back pain itself wouldn't have killed me, but I think associated depression might have. I first learned it from Foundation Training: https://www.youtube.com/user/DoAFounder https://www.youtube.com/user/DoAFounder Like the article says, learning to properly squat and deadlift really helps too

te_chris 9y ago

The jefferson curl is the secret weapon for loosening up hamstrings - be careful with the weight at first though.

pkaler 9y ago

+1 for weightlifting. This is basically how you kettlebell swing, snatch, clean & jerk, and deadlift.

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kelukelugames 9y ago

Has anyone heard of the third world squat? It's a joke from weightlifting forums but also has some truthful parts. https://www.google.com/search?q=third+world+squat&oq=third+world+s&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.2466j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 https://www.google.com/search?q=third+world+squat&oq=third+w...

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autokad 9y ago
there is a yoga position like it. i have always squatted that way, so its easier for me than most. not sure where it came from, but if i am waiting in line, instead of standing there i drop to the 3rd world squat
digi_owl 9y ago
I oddly ran into a description of something like this from someone that was a prisoner of the Japanese during WW2. Something about how every Japanese soldier, officers included, would squat while doing stationary tasks. That is, if i understood the description correctly.
- teachrdan 9y ago
  My Japanese aunt does this while gardening, and I can confirm that it's much easier on the back--although I barely have the balance to pull it off myself. Photo of the squat below. https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fjimlipschutz.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F07%2FJapanese-Gardener-Version-4.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fjimlipschutz.com%2Fpeople%2F&docid=JORo5hBymP7FjM&tbnid=M9JUcVxliEqyjM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwjM0qbUi8TZAhWmrVQKHcEUDdYQMwi0AihPME8..i&w=3000&h=1847&bih=953&biw=1680&q=japanese%20gardener&ved=0ahUKEwjM0qbUi8TZAhWmrVQKHcEUDdYQMwi0AihPME8&iact=mrc&uact=8 https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fjimlipschu...
loverofthings 9y ago
I can't do that squat. My hamstrings aren't flexible enough due to too much sitting in the first world.

mabbo 9y ago

Physiotherapists have given me a variety of reasons why, but I basically can't bend over in the way they are suggesting. > "Oh yes! In order to hip hinge properly, your hamstrings to have to lengthen," Shapiro says. "If you have tight hamstrings, they prevent you from bending over easily in that way." My hamstrings are incredibly tight and exercise and daily stretching haven't helped. The problem is my entire biomechanics are wonky. I barely use my abs, instead putting the load they would usually do onto my hamstrings, tightening them. The only solution is for me to get a specialist therapist and retrain myself on how to move, walk, run, etc. I work a traveling job, so that's basically not possible right now. On the bright side, I look totally normal in my movements.

mikekchar 9y ago
I need to get to bed, so I'll save you my (continuing) story of retraining my body to move. But this is from the mystical days of old when FAQs on Usenet contained magical information: https://archive.org/stream/Stretching_and_Flexibility_Brad_Appleton/Stretching_and_Flexibility_Brad_Appleton_djvu.txt https://archive.org/stream/Stretching_and_Flexibility_Brad_A... Hope it helps you!
arca_vorago 9y ago
Not sure what you've tried in the way of stretching, but I have some advice that you can take or leave, that I learned in my time in the Marine Corps, where I was doing MMA, running, lifting and swimming 5 times a week for about 4 hours total of exercise a day. (I got a bit fat and lazy as a civilian but I'm working on that these days) First, most people don't spend enough time on their stretches. The most common mistake I've found people have in their stretching is they only do a stretch for ~30 secs to a minute. Try spending exactly 5 minutes on each stretch, and I mean each stretch even if it's on the same muscle group, which brings me to two. The other main mistake I've corrected family and friends on is lack of variation in order to target the full area of muscle fiber on a muscle. They do one stretch in one position for a certain muscle, say, hamstrings, and think thats it. Even if you spend the amount of time suggested, if you dont target the whole muscle you will just have a small line of flexible muscle fiber while the rest of your muscle doesnt. Let me explain, so I'm sure you already know the standard hamstring stretch either single or both leg style. The best way to vary a hamstring stretch is to rotate your foot. First, to the inside, then to the outside. You will notice the different muscle fibers it gets. Then you should also try variations with your foot as far away from you as possible, and as close to you as possible. Try adjusting your hips on the single leg hamstring stretch to get slight variations as well. This is just an example, almost every stretch has small variations like this that pay off great dividends if you do them regularly. In total, during my fit days, I was spending about 30-45 minutes each morning and each evening stretching, with random quick pnf stretching done throughout the day. I know that sounds like a lot of time for a busy person, but, it's not that bad if you multi-task (I usually read news in the morning while stretching, and evening stretching is more meditative), and can you really dismiss your health so easily? Now, everyone is different and you might indeed have wierd biomechanics, but respectfully I think you might have allowed it to develop to this point rather than it being your natural state. My suggestion for you would be this, start with the above time/variation stretching suggestions, and throughout the day try to keep your abs flexed for 10 minute intervals a few times a day, maybe setting reminders about posture every so often. This is what I tell any friends or family who go on a get fit or fix my posture kick. Stretching is the most important part of either!

andrewla 9y ago

The strangest thing about this is that children know this without any input, and then go bad. I've watched my older son (now 5) go from having a perfect squat and hip hinge to starting to bend over "like an adult" with the arched back. There must be some reason that everyone, to some good approximation -- I'm in the US and this is what I see, does this the wrong way. Even people who know better seem to require conscious effort to do the motion correctly, myself included. Maybe it's because squatting and hip hinging are thing that require that you work into the position, rather than "falling" into it. It is strange that it follows cultural lines; possibly it's just imitating what people around you are doing, so fixing this would require some pretty large-scale brainwashing.

Floegipoky 9y ago
Watch for your son to start heel-striking too, if he isn't already. I think you're right about the large-scale brainwashing! But I think another essential part of the solution is going to be re-evaluating our society's relationship with sitting. I don't think it's a coincidence that the "tipping point" for a lot of children, where their movement patterns degrade, is when they start sitting primarily in chairs, rather than on the floor.
- withdavidli 9y ago
  Think heel striking happens because of the large heels we have have in shoes. I wear zero drop shoes and focus landing on mid/front foot is much easier. Didn’t realize how different my walk is compared to others until my coworker recognized me in a different building because of the way I walk. Was also told to heel strike by my mom, makes less flopping noise doing so. She has a way of doing what blends in, doesn’t want her kids to be different, the whole largest nail gets hammered.
  - hinkley 9y ago
    You can find cheaper, but I've replaced the insoles in almost all of my shoes with Superfeet Carbons. They're a hair thinner than most insoles so they open up the toe box a little bit too, and having enough space in the toe box totally changes how I walk. (Ecco shoes tend to be low-rise already, but for some reason their insoles always squeak for me. I replace them for my sanity, not because the replacements are lower. But other brand have a taller heel). I still heel strike when I walk, but only barely. The knife edge of my foot lands just after my heel, instead of what most people do which is lift their toes a half inch to an inch. Ouch.

ZeroGravitas 9y ago

I'd recommend one of the featured experts, Stuart McGill's books to people having back pain. Straightforward practical advice but with an HN-level of science-based nerdiness behind it. Not the fuzzy woo that you find in many health related topics.

b0rsuk 9y ago

This is nothing new if you have bad back, like me. Pain can be a good teacher when it comes to proper form. As a bonus, I have a runner's knee, so my wall-facing squats are damn near perfect. I'm perfecting my technique, and nowadays I'm doing my squats by ear. I know my squats are perfect when I don't hear any creaking in my left knee. As for why we, westerners bend this bad way by default ? It may have something to do with chairs. Sitting on a chair makes you used to bending over at your hips, because a chair makes any other bending impossible.

blunte 9y ago

No, this is simply wrong information. Or rather, this is information provided to people who are otherwise terribly out of shape. Look up Jefferson Curls, or j-curls. These are essentially the exact motion that this article is suggesting is the wrong way to do things. Now without question, you can do stronger lifts and put less direct stress on your spine by doing squats to pickup things rather than bends. But full fitness and flexibility absolutely include bends like the ones this article is telling you to avoid. Wherever your weakest muscles and structure are is where you'll first suffer injury when you try to do something beyond your capability. So if you learn to squat to pick things up, that's fine; but if you neglect to maintain your flexibility, especially including spinal, you will get a back injury one way or another. Rather than bending over to pick something up, it will be turning over in bed, or coughing while carrying something. What bothers me about specialist advice is that it is usually focused on one thing, one specialty. But whether you're talking about human anatomy and systems or economics or mental health (or many other very complex systems), you cannot just focus on a narrow set of changes or fixes.

nkassis 9y ago
I'm confused by your comment, From my reading you seem to say the article suggest squatting but from my reading the article is not advocating for squatting at all. It's advocating for hip hinge where your back remains straight and your hips rotate using your hamstring to pull. Unlike the j-curl you mention the back remains straight. Similar to deadlift technique.
- blunte 9y ago
  You're right - I went from hip hinge to squat because that's the natural progression of how you would adapt your movement in order to pick up something heavy. The posterior chain is the strongest set of muscles in the body, so the heaviest lifts will involve a squat (which is both a hip hinge and a leg bend, butt drop). I'm not referring to the standing negative squat as in weight lifting, I'm more referring to the dead life move done by people with longer legs and shorter torsos/arms. You probably know that there are many variations of dead life. What I was referring to, which I took the article to basically be advocating, was a type of bend (lift) that isolated the spine as much as possible. And I was arguing that use of the spine in a bending, flexing way is not inherently bad - it's just that typical modern (sedentary) life allows the core to weaken and reduces flexibility. Instead of telling people to isolate to avoid injury, we should be telling people to move more (starting lightly) to increase flexibility - then add weight to increase strength everywhere.

40acres 9y ago

Anyone who's performed a deadlift knows the hip hinge. I recently was testing my one rep max and due to fatigue my back arched instead of doing a proper hip hinge. The pain stayed with me for days and was pretty agonizing. This was about 5-6 weeks ago. Since then I've been deadlifting perfectly w/o pain.

nkassis 9y ago
Training Hip hinging (in my case with kettelbell swings and deadlifts) has helped me a lot with lower back pain. I definitively am more aware of my back when picking up things.
amasad 9y ago
I second this and would add that powerlifting, done right, would fix your posture and you'll naturally get into the proper pose for everyday things (picking something off the floor).
- jackgolding 9y ago
  Yup I can't believe how much lifting heavy things improved my posture and reduced lower back pain!
navidfarhadi 9y ago
I no longer perform the conventional deadlift as a part of my routine (due to several injuries) but I completely agree with this. In my opinion the best ways to learn how to hip hinge are the deadlift and kettlebell swing. I've recently switched to the RDL (Romanian Deadlift) with significantly reduced weight and higher reps and I personally prefer it for my lower back and hamstring training. The conventional deadlift is a great movement though if you can perform it correctly.
- 40acres 9y ago
  I also recently incorporated RDL's into my routine. Mainly to hit the hamstrings with more weight as the hamstring curl machine has a pretty low max weight and in general is annoying to perform. I was just recently thinking that the deadlift is probably the lift I enjoy the most. There is a rawness to it that just makes it so satisfying. Also it's usually the lift where you can lift the most so that adds an extra touch. The deadlift is killing my hands though. My callouses are starting to become a bother and my hands are pretty raw for any other lifts later in my session.

soheil 9y ago

Why make it about culture/race? Using anecdotal evidence the author is suggesting there is cultural reasons why this is happening. It’s not too far fetched to go one step further and make it also about race. I’m surprised people are ok with semi-racists articles like this perhaps because they come from NPR? All you have to do is remove one layer to realize the pseudoscience used in this article is saying some cultures and therefore races behave physically different than us (although in a good way, but nevertheless) without any rigid evidence. Yet no one here seems to mind that and not see how this leads to prejudice and exacerbating that we are different and everyone else is “others”. There are people in the US who also bend from the waistline.

Jemmeh 9y ago
There ARE physical differences in races though. It's not so major that you should treat people as more or less than you, but there's nothing wrong with pointing out that there's different types of people around the world. For example when studying disease you can see statistically certain diseases are more common for certain races or sexes. The article even mentions we still have "bending at the hip" in our culture as well especially in sports, yoga, and gardening. But we could benefit more than that. And posture is cultural in that it varies somewhat depending on where you are. A military bootcamp would have a culture that promotes a certain posture. Even between a English tea room and a Japanese tea room there's different rules about posture. Then you can also even consider the fashions in an area. For example people who wear heels a lot (even a small heel) vs someone who is constantly wearing flip flops will have a very different squat. People who wear heels a lot will have a harder time doing a squat while keeping their heels down due to a shortening of the muscle on the back of their leg.
edanm 9y ago
Does anyone really think there are no culture differences at all? Is this the position of anyone on any part of the political/ideological spectrum? I mean, I can say that there is such a thing as a different diet between different countries/cultures, and I don't think I'm being racist or wrong. I'm just stating facts that literally everyone agrees with.
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dragontamer 9y ago

Reading this article just makes me ask... Do people deadlift? https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/how-to-deadlift-beginners-guide.html https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/how-to-deadlift-beginners-g... I'm not a very strong person. But Deadlifts are part of my routine. Again, not for athletic purposes of anything, but "Practicing to pick things up" is basically a Deadlift. And every day, we bend over to pickup small objects, and occasionally, we bend over to pick up heavier objects (ie: Grocery shopping: Picking up bags off the floor or whatever). So the deadlift is the most straightforward way to do this maneuver. I mean, its no Olympic level "Snatch" or whatever. But the basic deadlift has to be one of the more "practical" weightlifting moves to routinely practice. Its also an overall good, full body exercise. Doing the deadlift improperly can result in bad muscle strain and maybe even injury... but that's what makes practicing to do it properly even more important.

mkagenius 9y ago

Any idea when a curved back isn’t bad? I mean we have the ability to curve the back for some reason.. right? Feels weird to completely make the back stiff forever

toasterlovin 9y ago
The real danger with your spine is rotation under load. So, picking up something heavy, then rotating your torso instead of turning your entire body. TBH, you probably won't hurt your spine by curling your back. Mostly it's just a poor way to transmit force between the floor and whatever load you're carrying. You could hurt the muscles involved in making your back erect, though.

newnewpdro 9y ago

I basically stopped using furniture altogether years ago because it became apparent how it was interfering with the natural preservation of my ability to bend over and get down and up from the floor without effort. Observe your average older person who lives a life employing furniture pick something up off the floor, or pick themselves off the floor. It's not uncommon for them to need assistance in the latter case! If they had no furniture all their life, unless they were injured, they wouldn't have these problems because they couldn't possibly go through life without being able to get off the floor regularly having no furniture around. It's also proven to encourage me to move more throughout the day, as well as stretch more. The floor is spacious, it's luxurious, and unstructured. It invites me to move around, stretch, and reconfigure myself when one position gets stale or something is going numb. Furniture is structured, it's almost like bondage. You must sit in this chair design this way, your back must be up at this angle, your legs go here. It's totally unnatural and honestly seems like an awful compromise in part to increase density, and perhaps project wealth over those who live in furniture-less, largely empty rooms, or maybe it's just good business to sell furniture to everyone. And in the process it's preventing you from having to bring yourself to the floor and back up to standing height dozens of times every day. There were some studies I read about geographic regions with the largest concentrations of the oldest living people. I don't have the link handy, but one of the things they observed was an exceptional number of these places didn't use furniture. They noted how the lack of furniture naturally kept the people limber into old age. I love sitting on the floor now. It's become incredibly uncomfortable and simply annoying for me to sit on furniture. When I'm with my peers, and I'm not even that old - if we all end up sitting on the floor somewhere, I'm shocked at how visible the difference is already. Many adults are not able to be comfortable on the floor becuase they don't have the necessary flexibility for the variety of floor positions that would otherwise be available to them. It's because they stopped spending time on the floor after childhood, because in the west successful adults use furniture. You want to be successful, don't you?

Toast_25 9y ago
That's a good idea! How do you use your computer/laptop? What about eating? And how long did it take for you to get used to not having furniture?

magic_beans 9y ago

It’s called a deadlift.

lerie82 9y ago

I personally think this is all bullshit. "Usually everybody immediately moves their heads and looks down." of course people look down, how the hell are we going to locate it to pick it up. There is an image they show where the woman on the right clearly is bending over improperly, so I can't sit here and believe this guy says Americans do it wrong when clearly it's a matter of personal choice. This article also compares the human body to a cloth... There is also a video of a woman picking up something yet she also looks down, so, is she doing it wrong like he said in the beginning of the article? "Weightlifters use it when they do what's called a deadlift.", this has nothing to do with picking a piece of fruit or feather off the floor, it's completely different. Then close to the end of the article they drop the bomb on us and tell us they have no data to back up anything they said in the article, just opinions of the doctors and a spine specialist at stanford. also, how is this tech news? it's a shameless plug for a business who hasn't updated their site design since 2001, this is a tech news blog right?

tiredwired 9y ago

I blame it on school PE classes where they make you touch your toes repeatedly. They act like there is something wrong with you if you are not flexible that way.

fouc 9y ago

We need to bring back squat toilets into western society. Get rid of the sitting toilets. Then we'll end up with strong legs and be more likely to hip hinge properly. Also less hemorrhoids.

supergetting 9y ago
I've been on those toilets before at street-side filthy restrooms in hot & humid summer days, uncleaned vomit and splattered excrements of drunk people from the night before. It's the worst when you're feeling sick yourself from too much drink, and you have to squat for 30 minutes. You sweat like a pig and swim in a urine-covered floor; it's a full work-out session every time you go into a bathroom like that.

loorinm 9y ago

I haven’t seen anyone posit a theory as to why Western people bend this way, so I’ll go: Extreme sex and body shame. We receive, from a young age, shame about exposing - even with clothing on - “sexual” parts of the body - breasts, butt, and crotch. Women are strongly motivated to tuck in the backside because it is both shamed and unsafe in our society to stick out our butts. This is why women squat to tie their shoes in public. Rape, assault, catcalling, is so prevalent and a constant awareness for women in public. This pose would also be considered “unprofessional” in a workplace. Men are discouraged as well, lest they incur the worst male insult in our society : “gay”. Men are shamed and called gay from childhood if they take this hip-hinge pose. So they stop. Bending at the waist exposes the vulnerable backside in a way that is unsafe in historically Puritanical Western society.

jeffdavis 9y ago
It seems like you are reaching pretty far for a social explanation. It seems more reasonable to start with lifestyle and work style. Maybe lots of sitting and standing are to blame? Maybe something about industrialization or household conveniences (washing machine, etc.)? I suppose there are some social factors, but I would assume they are secondary unless I see evidence otherwise.
- loorinm 9y ago
  I don't think I'm reaching. Read the comments below, about the fact that children learn this spine-bend posture early on, way before any sedentary lifestyle. I'm pretty sure 3-year-olds aren't using washing machines either. I'm speaking from firsthand personal experience, and overwhelming experience seeing others go through the same cultural conditioning I described in my post.
  - jeffdavis 9y ago
    How is 3 years old "way before any sedentary lifestyle"? I consider my family moderately active, but my 3 year old is certainly familiar with the couch. In more agrarian societies, there are probably a lot fewer opportunities to sit somewhere comfortably. And did you consider agrarian but sexually-conservative regions (maybe India or the Middle East?), or developed but sexually-liberal regions (maybe Mediterranean?), to see if those line up with your theory?