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I hate seeing people's comments on stories around this topic. I grew up in poverty and food stamps from time to time. My dad was a roughneck and when the oil bu

I hate seeing people's comments on stories around this topic. I grew up in poverty and food stamps from time to time. My dad was a roughneck and when the oil bust happened in the 80's there was a time we lived out of our car -- my whole family. here was literally nothing to do in the oil patch during that bust. There was literally no work. But people don't understand true hopelessness. My dad did everything he could to find a job during that time... for three months time we hardly had any food I guess because it wasn't easy to get on the program fast back then. Those that come out of a dire situation think everyone else can. The ramifications of that happening to my dad will probably last multiple generations. He went from a loving father to a loathsome troll of a creature working nights in a oil refinery (I thought at the time) finally. From that my mom and dad divorced. My wife doesn't understand why I have severe dentals problems now in life, or other health issues that doctors told me are from stress. She doesn't understand why I stress so much about money and stay up at night. I don't know why I'm saying all this the solution is simple but the problem is hard to acknowledge. The poor and destitute simply need help. We live in a society though that thinks someone else is going to take care of the problems. When we do finally give help it's so conditional and shamed that the hole of guilt someone fell in is practically inescapable.

psyc 9y ago
I grew up in poverty in the US as well, and I agree there’s a heartless tendency for people not to acknowledge it’s real. The tired comment I see most frequently is something like “nobody in the US is poor because everyone has plumbing, refrigerators, and TVs.” First, no, everyone does not. Many people are homeless. Second, it’s very narrow to focus on objective material factors, because that discounts the toll of the nightmarish stress the poor live with constantly, even the ones who have an apartment and a television.
- baby 9y ago
  The most shocking place I've visited in my life was San Francisco. Super rich people surrounded by armies of homeless people.
  - dfgdsfgsd 9y ago
    I spent three months in S. Barbara. I hated it for this reason. All I could see were the homeless, ignored. Once, a homeless person's wheelchair tripped on a curb and he fell off into the street. People literally walked over him until I picked him up and back into his chair. I'd lived in Atlanta for several years before but the attitude of the well do to the poor was obscene. When I left, I vowed I would never live in coastal California again.
  - coolaliasbro 9y ago
    Agreed--this was a huge source of philosophical dissonance for me when I lived there. The issue is just as persistent in the East Bay (specifically, Oakland/Berkeley) and is worse, IMO, because Berkeley espouses a progressive/compassionate/environmentally+socially friendly image, to which it does not adhere in practice.
braderhart 9y ago
Thank you for sharing your story. I feel so much empathy towards you and your family, and I'm sorry to hear about your father feeling so bitter towards the system afterwards. I don't blame him. When I see people screaming and walking down the streets talking to themselves, I see people that need love. I see people that need to be taken in, not just for a night, but for a year or longer... so they can stop stressing about where they'll get their next meal, or if they'll have someplace warm and safe to sleep at night. It is so easy for people to judge them.. say that it is their fault for being down on their luck. When you're homeless, you just get used to people assuming the worse... heck you even start to assume the worse about yourself. You say, why is it that no one cares to see that I'm hurting inside. People judge them for not taking whatever work is available for the day, because they assume... hey, one day helps, right... well when you're homeless, the help of one person is kind and does help for a bit, but what what people need in America are communities helping them. Unfortunately, you will likely have to go to religious services and pretend to care about religion enough to get the help you need, because that is who America has designated as their community support system.
- chaostheory 9y ago
  > When I see people screaming and walking down the streets talking to themselves, I see people that need love If they're talking to themselves, they need more than that. They probably need to be cared for in a mental institution. Unfortunately the overall national trend has been funding cuts, with the irony being that it doesn't save money overall; since the costs are just shifted over to hospitals and other emergency services. This isn't a new subject. For those without severe mental issues, the end result is the same when we provide housing: it costs less https://www.vox.com/2014/5/30/5764096/its-three-times-cheaper-to-give-housing-to-the-homeless-than-to-keep https://www.vox.com/2014/5/30/5764096/its-three-times-cheape...
  - marcoperaza 9y ago
    Those living on the streets with severe mental issues probably don’t want to be in a mental institution. And unless they’re a danger to themselves or others (and not just in the sense of making bad life decisions), they can’t be held against their will. This is a free country.
Jedd 9y ago
> I hate seeing people's comments on stories around this topic. Could you explain why that is?
- King-Aaron 9y ago
  I don't think this adds anything to the discussion except for a facetious tone. The OP explained exactly why he doesn't like reading the comments literally in the next breath from what you selectively quoted.
  - Jedd 9y ago
    Not being facetious. I can't see the explanation you say exists. I suspect that there's a missing qualifier to parent's comment --something like 'from people who haven't lived what I have lived' -- but absent that it sounds like other people's experiences are of no or negative value.
    - King-Aaron 9y ago
      I find it hard to believe that you are unintentionally missing the context behind the original post, but so be it
      - Jedd 9y ago
        As parent post observed in a sibling comment back to me, he/she interpreted the original article at about 180 degrees to how I read it. I'm curious which way you interpreted TFA, as it may inform why you believe I'm missing the point of the parent post.
    - deleted 9y ago
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- kraig911 9y ago
  > Could you explain why that is? Easy by the rest of my comment maybe I didn't illustrate it enough but a lot of people share ideas on how to fix it without truly understand it. Poverty is easy to fix. It's the giving up personal wealth to prevent it that's the hard part. As per the link it basically says the same crap everyone says, the "Helping the homeless is hopeless" narrative. Now saying that once you're screwed you'll never be able to think 'normal' again... c'mon man.
linkmotif 9y ago
I don’t think there’s necessarily a conflict between having empathy for people unconditionally while still asking questions like: if times were at one point good or OK but you’ve fallen into hard times now, why did you not have savings? People ask these questions because being miserly to save is hard and unpleasant, and then when others seemingly haven’t saved, it’s emotionally difficult helping them. I see people using benefits cards buying food at grocery stores that I would never allow myself to buy. It’s not something that fosters empathy within me. My family came to this country with absolutely _nothing_ and my parents saved and saved and saved to accumulate a safety net. The point of saving is so that when you lose our job you don’t face imminent castrophe. If you lose your job and you’ve saved you can migrate and find a job elsewhere. But millions of Americans don’t do this. It’s hard to feel bad for them when you put so much hard work and deny yourself so much just to save. But I’m not saying anything new: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ant_and_the_Grasshopper https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ant_and_the_Grasshopper
- nitwit005 9y ago
  It's a fairly common phenomenon to see immigrant households doing better than the American-born population, despite the obvious hurdles of no savings and not speaking English. Every time the census data gets published, you tend to see a few articles pop up about it: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/01/nyregion/01census.html http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/01/nyregion/01census.html
- kraig911 9y ago
  When you say they had nothing they had nothing or did they have nothing and were also in 'debt'? In my families historical situation the big issue is you're poor because of debts. You can't move because you're stuck in a mortgage or farm loan. You can't go to college because you owe money. You can't better yourself without help from the outside essentially. Imagine owing 2k+ a month but only making 1800 for a few years that will drain your savings.. imagine then it gets worse and worse and eventually you get laid off. Being upside down causes the blood to go to your brain and like the article implies makes some people continue to make bad decisions. Say you get out of being upside down for just a small time you then rationalize spending over what you were like before because you think your ship finally came in... but in today's society that can change in a heartbeat.
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nicoburns 9y ago
I'm from the UK and I'm currently travelling the world for a few months. I have been shocked by how different American attitudes to poverty are to European ones. We may not be very good at actually helping people in poverty, but most people accept that poor people are in need of help.
- eanzenberg 9y ago
  Sending "thoughts and prayers" is a lot easier than actually doing anything.
  - DoreenMichele 9y ago
    I saw a great comment on twitter: Thoughts and prayers: the air guitar of helping.
    - turc1656 9y ago
      I forgot who it was, but there was a good joke by a comedian on this topic. He was talking about people throwing out that common "we are praying for you" line and he was like "Oh, so you're telling me you're going to sit on the couch and do nothing? Thanks."
      - hestipod 9y ago
        Sounds like something Bill Burr would say.
- FuckOffNeemo 9y ago
  I couldn't agree more. Honestly, the whole bash-the-poor perception is becoming more prevalent in Australia too (I'm from the UK too), it's becoming more and more the norm but as a whole, I find Australia to be very Americanised.
- jamiegreen 9y ago
  I agree. Was in SF recently and the juxtaposition of extreme wealth and homelessness makes me extremely uncomfortable. I know we have homelessness in the UK but this is just a whole different scale in the US
52-6F-62 9y ago
We have a little in common, though the events of my own life occurred a little differently. We moved to a small rural town when I was young out of fears that my father’s work for an oil company’s union (refinery construction and maintenance) would place him out of jurisdiction where we were. He is and was a very talented fitter/welder and has even taught courses in college. He did however spend most of the best years of his life after his athletic career with some ugly-souled people who seemed to have it out for mankind in general. Somehow he endured decades of that to look after us. I wish he could have been more enlightened to the world as it would have helped my siblings and I out when we were young. Ultimately we were on our own financially and otherwise even though my parents offered whatever support they could. I’ve spent time living on $5 a week for food. Some flour, sugar, water, butter, salt, baking soda, and on good weeks milk, can go a long way if you need them too. I forget how many times I had to live on homemade soda bread for weeks at a time, but it wasn’t fun—maybe that’s why I can’t remember it too well. Im doing so much better than a lot of people who have never had a chance. I’m lucky I was a little bright. I’ve also been to school and worked alongside people who have no idea what it is to have no such luck, money, or otherwise—it’s enlightening and sometimes disheartening to speak to people in those positions about that. I couldn’t agree more with what you’ve said. I think if most people took a moment to imagine how bad their own life could be, and compound that by a few orders of magnitude, you might get close to just how it feels to be in such a position and how hard it is to ‘pull yourself up by your bootstraps’— so to speak. Your points on dignity are a topic too large to address in this forum. But you’re right.
- kraig911 9y ago
  The hardest argument that I hate about the article in question. I will never stop living like tomorrow I could lose everything. I will forever keep some cash stashed a way. I will always keep canned chili in the cupboard. Every thunderstorm or inclement weather event I fill the bathtub up. Some may say "oh that's good that you do that" but to my wife it's border line paranoia.
  - Consultant32452 9y ago
    I've read a bunch of personal finance books and I found that they recommend 3-6 months of expenses in savings as an "emergency fund." Of course, they usually mean in a bank, I don't know how literally you mean "cash." But if you have less than 3 months worth of expenses stashed, you're living somewhat precariously. The general population is absolutely terrible with money, so I would recommend taking random peoples' opinion on savings with a grain of salt. This is the internet, so take mine with a grain of salt too. It's worth doing your own research from experts. I don't know how much canned chili you keep, but FEMA recommends keeping at least a 3 day supply of non-perishable food on hand. I don't think FEMA has a reputation for having borderline paranoia.
aswanson 9y ago
Sentiments like these are why I can't Fuck with libertarians. Even though I never experienced as much, I know there but through the grace of God go I. And I don't believe in god.
- throway808state 9y ago
  Libertarians want less government, many of them also want basic income, and some (such as myself) want socialized medicine. I want more sharing, and fewer of the hapless fools who pretend to govern.
- skookumchuck 9y ago
  Libertarianism is not about not helping others. Not even remotely. Libertarianism means you can help others as much as you want to.
  - mcphage 9y ago
    > Libertarianism means you can help others as much as you want to. What’s the political philosophy that means you can help others as much as they need? Maybe we should talk about that one more.
    - Consultant32452 9y ago
      With the operative word being "can" there, it's still libertarianism.
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    - Al-Khwarizmi 9y ago
      Marxism. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" - Karl Marx.
      - gaius 9y ago
        He said it in that order for a reason, Comrade, one that I don’t think people really appreciate. It means “if you don’t work you don’t eat”. Doesn’t sound so benevolent now does it?
protomyth 9y ago
I know the feeling. Luckily my parents stayed together. We picked aluminum cans. Dad found some hard construction work and I did softball scoreboards in the summer. My brother and I still regard fish as poor people food. Commodity meat shouldn’t be feed to dogs much less people. Although the peanuts and cheese were good. It affects your thinking forever. Even when doing consulting gigs, I still spent sparingly like it all could go away. Even after Dad got a decent job elsewhere, it took a few years to feel comfortable again.
analyst74 9y ago
American poverty sounds so different from Chinese poverty. I grew up during the tail years of communism and everybody was dirt poor. The interesting thing is, nobody was financially stressed, starvation and homelessness was not a thing. I ended up developing an abundance mentality and terrible money management skills. Looking even further back, my parents experienced the height of policy stupidity and barely survived the great famine which killed millions. It scarred them for life, but also pushed them to make more money and live frugally even after achieving financial security.
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- suj1th 9y ago
  I can relate to this. I grew up in India when India was a closed economy, with anything (commodities or services) either too expensive or limited by license raj. My father, being a lowly government official, did have a steady but meagre income. Groceries and mortgage were always on his mind. But, he also had his habit of never borrowing, in spite of dire need. Never kept a credit card either (to this day). I have learnt that brand of frugality from him.
- nichtich 9y ago
  By the time you are born it's already getting better. Yes it's dirt poor compared to now but is already on the trend of improving. So the stress level would be very different than the "suddenly become poor" people. Another point is back in those days the majority of population are poor, which means the social structure are build around poor people. Food, cloths, education, haircut, all of them targeted poor people. You don't need to live in the corner of the city and go great length to find products suited for you.
- fastball 9y ago
  "Chinese poverty is different from American poverty because we weren't worried about starving." Mentions a mass starvation event in China only a generation before which probably killed the equivalent of 10% of the US population at the time. You might want to think about that a bit more.
dizzystar 9y ago
I grew up in poverty as well and my reaction to money is the total opposite. I never felt connected to it all. I want to be a good saver, but my understanding of the green stuff is nearly nil. It's just sort of there and I try not to think about it. I think it's just the opposite problem. I simply don't know what to spend money on. I feel like I spend a lot of money, but somehow everyone is in deeper debt than I am. I just don't want to have all those expensive things. I grew up living out of a duffel bag and lost everything I owned in that multiple times in my life. I just don't want anything. Buying furniture for the first time was the most stressful thing I ever went through. When I bought my first bed, I just laid on a bed in the shop and just stayed there having a mental breakdown. I walked out nearly in tears and slept on my floor for a full week before I finally called and ordered the bed. It was $700 and felt like I took a nose dive off a cliff. The biggest effect is my appetite. No one understands why I'm so underweight. If you ever go a week without eating, believe me, your desire to eat food goes out the window. Those first bites of food makes you incredibly ill. I eat everyday now, but three meals is overkill.
- heurist 9y ago
  I buy things that become more valuable over time. Investing has become a fun way for me to "spend" that cash I otherwise hoard. Spending money on anything else is very difficult for me.
  - norin 9y ago
    I spend most of my money on books. I rarely ever spend money on anything else. Living as a kid with my grandma had a huge impact on things I did in my later years. We were poor but always had access to books.
    - hycaria 9y ago
      Don't you have access to libraries ?
      - KozmoNau7 9y ago
zrb05293 9y ago
My childhood was one of extreme poverty. We were never homeless. But my dad worked so much we never saw him. And the toll it took on him was such that my brother and I were basically terrified of him even into our early adulthood. He was brutal, mean, always angry. Our mother died when I was 10 and he abandoned us with our grandparents. I don’t blame him anymore. He had a breakdown. The world finally destroyed him. But life with our grandparents was better. They were kind and in their own harsh way taught us we had to be tough and make better decisions. It didn’t stick with my brother. He’s been borderline psychotic ever since mom died. I think it destroyed him, too. But even now at 30 I count every penny. Every expense is important. Even going on a date with my wife, I’m afraid the whole time. What if...what if..it’s nearly constant. All that to say I think I understand how you feel. And I agree, those who haven’t and don’t have to live like we did just can’t understand it. That’s not a value judgement. It’s just human nature.
- kraig911 9y ago
  Almost the same happened with my father. It's why I think poverty can span generations easily. I am grateful now my mom and dad got a divorce but during that dark time I only saw my dad if either myself or my brother were in trouble or if we happened to be running around the trailer late at night.
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mrep 9y ago
> The poor and destitute simply need help. Upvote for the story but "simply need help" is not a policy a government can use to solve the problem. Granted, solving this problem for everyone is nigh impossible but maybe you can give us an example of a policy that would have helped out your individual family to give us some ideas?
- jopsen 9y ago
  When half your country frame it as: makers VS takers. Then "simply need help" would be a significant policy change. Lots of other developed countries have made inroads on poverty. Just look.
  - mrep 9y ago
    > When half your country frame it as: makers VS takers. I have never heard of that term before. What does that mean? > Then "simply need help" would be a significant policy change. Again, governments are based on policies and rules. "simply need help" is way to abstract. > Lots of other developed countries have made inroads on poverty. Just look. Which policies and rules used by other governments do you recommend?
    - Hextinium 9y ago
      Conservatives in the deep south I find have belief in this, they think that giving money to people that have none is fundamentally stealing from them through taxation and then giving it to someone that doesn't work as hard as them.
      - goatlover 9y ago
        As opposed to giving it to defense contractors or farm subsidies. It's funny how conservatives only focus on tax dollars going to the poor.
        jopsen 9y ago
contingencies 9y ago
I hate seeing people's comments on stories around this topic Stay Hungry. Stay Foolish. - Steve Jobs
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ataturk 9y ago
I feel ya. My dad was a Boilermaker. There were good years and some really bad years during the "boom" time of the 1980s! He worked out of town a lot. Phrases like "six tens" or "seven tens" meant how many days per week of work and the hours. He could get time and half on Saturday and double time on Sunday. He'd work like that for 3-4 months, then get laid off and our family would coast on what he earned plus unemployment for awhile after. We were never homeless or living out of a car, though. We had a crappy house, and probably no one thought I would ever amount to anything. Growing up there was sometimes fun, not like suburbia at all. It made me a man, not like these cuckold twats who are scared of their own shadows. I learned how to fix things and get by on limited resources and it definitely made me eager for a better career and better life, something which I worked very hard to obtain. The saddest thing of all is that my dad was a great carpenter and fabricator and should have been building houses in the 1980s, a business he had already worked in and knew how to do. At some point he become obsessed with that union pension and couldn't think about anything else. So while a lot of people were getting rich in the '80s, our family was just scraping by. He got that pension, though. But he almost got us killed trying to stay in that union. Anyone who thinks unions are happy fun organizations don't know anything about unions and what they do to their members--it's just another power structure with the regular people acting as raw meat. The Boilermakers tried their level best to force members out before they could reach retirement age and collect their pensions. They were horrible to women and minorities, too. Imagine a bunch of bikers, just the trash of the world, running the show and you have a pretty good picture in your head of that union.
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Clanan 9y ago
> We live in a society though that thinks someone else is going to take care of the problems. It's worse than this. Now society thinks that government is going to take care of the problems. The past fifty years and the War on Poverty have shown us how well that works. I wish that, instead of spending more untold billions on new programs and bureaucracies, government would switch to facilitating citizens to create, man, and implement the help that is so sorely needed by the poor and helpless. Encourage the citizenry to take personal responsibility for helping others, instead of offering an easy out to do nothing.
frandroid 9y ago
> I don't know why I'm saying all this the solution is simple but the problem is hard to acknowledge. The poor and destitute simply need help. We live in a society though that thinks someone else is going to take care of the problems. When we do finally give help it's so conditional and shamed that the hole of guilt someone fell in is practically inescapable. I really don't understand why this is so controversial in North America. The 'Fuck You All, I've Got Mine' mentality is a sign of a morally dead society.

psyc 9y ago

I grew up in poverty in the US as well, and I agree there’s a heartless tendency for people not to acknowledge it’s real. The tired comment I see most frequently is something like “nobody in the US is poor because everyone has plumbing, refrigerators, and TVs.” First, no, everyone does not. Many people are homeless. Second, it’s very narrow to focus on objective material factors, because that discounts the toll of the nightmarish stress the poor live with constantly, even the ones who have an apartment and a television.

baby 9y ago
The most shocking place I've visited in my life was San Francisco. Super rich people surrounded by armies of homeless people.
- dfgdsfgsd 9y ago
  I spent three months in S. Barbara. I hated it for this reason. All I could see were the homeless, ignored. Once, a homeless person's wheelchair tripped on a curb and he fell off into the street. People literally walked over him until I picked him up and back into his chair. I'd lived in Atlanta for several years before but the attitude of the well do to the poor was obscene. When I left, I vowed I would never live in coastal California again.
- coolaliasbro 9y ago
  Agreed--this was a huge source of philosophical dissonance for me when I lived there. The issue is just as persistent in the East Bay (specifically, Oakland/Berkeley) and is worse, IMO, because Berkeley espouses a progressive/compassionate/environmentally+socially friendly image, to which it does not adhere in practice.

braderhart 9y ago

Thank you for sharing your story. I feel so much empathy towards you and your family, and I'm sorry to hear about your father feeling so bitter towards the system afterwards. I don't blame him. When I see people screaming and walking down the streets talking to themselves, I see people that need love. I see people that need to be taken in, not just for a night, but for a year or longer... so they can stop stressing about where they'll get their next meal, or if they'll have someplace warm and safe to sleep at night. It is so easy for people to judge them.. say that it is their fault for being down on their luck. When you're homeless, you just get used to people assuming the worse... heck you even start to assume the worse about yourself. You say, why is it that no one cares to see that I'm hurting inside. People judge them for not taking whatever work is available for the day, because they assume... hey, one day helps, right... well when you're homeless, the help of one person is kind and does help for a bit, but what what people need in America are communities helping them. Unfortunately, you will likely have to go to religious services and pretend to care about religion enough to get the help you need, because that is who America has designated as their community support system.

chaostheory 9y ago
> When I see people screaming and walking down the streets talking to themselves, I see people that need love If they're talking to themselves, they need more than that. They probably need to be cared for in a mental institution. Unfortunately the overall national trend has been funding cuts, with the irony being that it doesn't save money overall; since the costs are just shifted over to hospitals and other emergency services. This isn't a new subject. For those without severe mental issues, the end result is the same when we provide housing: it costs less https://www.vox.com/2014/5/30/5764096/its-three-times-cheaper-to-give-housing-to-the-homeless-than-to-keep https://www.vox.com/2014/5/30/5764096/its-three-times-cheape...
- marcoperaza 9y ago
  Those living on the streets with severe mental issues probably don’t want to be in a mental institution. And unless they’re a danger to themselves or others (and not just in the sense of making bad life decisions), they can’t be held against their will. This is a free country.

Jedd 9y ago

> I hate seeing people's comments on stories around this topic. Could you explain why that is?

King-Aaron 9y ago
I don't think this adds anything to the discussion except for a facetious tone. The OP explained exactly why he doesn't like reading the comments literally in the next breath from what you selectively quoted.
- Jedd 9y ago
  Not being facetious. I can't see the explanation you say exists. I suspect that there's a missing qualifier to parent's comment --something like 'from people who haven't lived what I have lived' -- but absent that it sounds like other people's experiences are of no or negative value.
  - King-Aaron 9y ago
    I find it hard to believe that you are unintentionally missing the context behind the original post, but so be it
    - Jedd 9y ago
      As parent post observed in a sibling comment back to me, he/she interpreted the original article at about 180 degrees to how I read it. I'm curious which way you interpreted TFA, as it may inform why you believe I'm missing the point of the parent post.
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kraig911 9y ago
> Could you explain why that is? Easy by the rest of my comment maybe I didn't illustrate it enough but a lot of people share ideas on how to fix it without truly understand it. Poverty is easy to fix. It's the giving up personal wealth to prevent it that's the hard part. As per the link it basically says the same crap everyone says, the "Helping the homeless is hopeless" narrative. Now saying that once you're screwed you'll never be able to think 'normal' again... c'mon man.

linkmotif 9y ago

I don’t think there’s necessarily a conflict between having empathy for people unconditionally while still asking questions like: if times were at one point good or OK but you’ve fallen into hard times now, why did you not have savings? People ask these questions because being miserly to save is hard and unpleasant, and then when others seemingly haven’t saved, it’s emotionally difficult helping them. I see people using benefits cards buying food at grocery stores that I would never allow myself to buy. It’s not something that fosters empathy within me. My family came to this country with absolutely _nothing_ and my parents saved and saved and saved to accumulate a safety net. The point of saving is so that when you lose our job you don’t face imminent castrophe. If you lose your job and you’ve saved you can migrate and find a job elsewhere. But millions of Americans don’t do this. It’s hard to feel bad for them when you put so much hard work and deny yourself so much just to save. But I’m not saying anything new: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ant_and_the_Grasshopper https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ant_and_the_Grasshopper

nitwit005 9y ago
It's a fairly common phenomenon to see immigrant households doing better than the American-born population, despite the obvious hurdles of no savings and not speaking English. Every time the census data gets published, you tend to see a few articles pop up about it: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/01/nyregion/01census.html http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/01/nyregion/01census.html
kraig911 9y ago
When you say they had nothing they had nothing or did they have nothing and were also in 'debt'? In my families historical situation the big issue is you're poor because of debts. You can't move because you're stuck in a mortgage or farm loan. You can't go to college because you owe money. You can't better yourself without help from the outside essentially. Imagine owing 2k+ a month but only making 1800 for a few years that will drain your savings.. imagine then it gets worse and worse and eventually you get laid off. Being upside down causes the blood to go to your brain and like the article implies makes some people continue to make bad decisions. Say you get out of being upside down for just a small time you then rationalize spending over what you were like before because you think your ship finally came in... but in today's society that can change in a heartbeat.

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nicoburns 9y ago

I'm from the UK and I'm currently travelling the world for a few months. I have been shocked by how different American attitudes to poverty are to European ones. We may not be very good at actually helping people in poverty, but most people accept that poor people are in need of help.

eanzenberg 9y ago
Sending "thoughts and prayers" is a lot easier than actually doing anything.
- DoreenMichele 9y ago
  I saw a great comment on twitter: Thoughts and prayers: the air guitar of helping.
  - turc1656 9y ago
    I forgot who it was, but there was a good joke by a comedian on this topic. He was talking about people throwing out that common "we are praying for you" line and he was like "Oh, so you're telling me you're going to sit on the couch and do nothing? Thanks."
    - hestipod 9y ago
      Sounds like something Bill Burr would say.
FuckOffNeemo 9y ago
I couldn't agree more. Honestly, the whole bash-the-poor perception is becoming more prevalent in Australia too (I'm from the UK too), it's becoming more and more the norm but as a whole, I find Australia to be very Americanised.
jamiegreen 9y ago
I agree. Was in SF recently and the juxtaposition of extreme wealth and homelessness makes me extremely uncomfortable. I know we have homelessness in the UK but this is just a whole different scale in the US

52-6F-62 9y ago

We have a little in common, though the events of my own life occurred a little differently. We moved to a small rural town when I was young out of fears that my father’s work for an oil company’s union (refinery construction and maintenance) would place him out of jurisdiction where we were. He is and was a very talented fitter/welder and has even taught courses in college. He did however spend most of the best years of his life after his athletic career with some ugly-souled people who seemed to have it out for mankind in general. Somehow he endured decades of that to look after us. I wish he could have been more enlightened to the world as it would have helped my siblings and I out when we were young. Ultimately we were on our own financially and otherwise even though my parents offered whatever support they could. I’ve spent time living on $5 a week for food. Some flour, sugar, water, butter, salt, baking soda, and on good weeks milk, can go a long way if you need them too. I forget how many times I had to live on homemade soda bread for weeks at a time, but it wasn’t fun—maybe that’s why I can’t remember it too well. Im doing so much better than a lot of people who have never had a chance. I’m lucky I was a little bright. I’ve also been to school and worked alongside people who have no idea what it is to have no such luck, money, or otherwise—it’s enlightening and sometimes disheartening to speak to people in those positions about that. I couldn’t agree more with what you’ve said. I think if most people took a moment to imagine how bad their own life could be, and compound that by a few orders of magnitude, you might get close to just how it feels to be in such a position and how hard it is to ‘pull yourself up by your bootstraps’— so to speak. Your points on dignity are a topic too large to address in this forum. But you’re right.

kraig911 9y ago
The hardest argument that I hate about the article in question. I will never stop living like tomorrow I could lose everything. I will forever keep some cash stashed a way. I will always keep canned chili in the cupboard. Every thunderstorm or inclement weather event I fill the bathtub up. Some may say "oh that's good that you do that" but to my wife it's border line paranoia.
- Consultant32452 9y ago
  I've read a bunch of personal finance books and I found that they recommend 3-6 months of expenses in savings as an "emergency fund." Of course, they usually mean in a bank, I don't know how literally you mean "cash." But if you have less than 3 months worth of expenses stashed, you're living somewhat precariously. The general population is absolutely terrible with money, so I would recommend taking random peoples' opinion on savings with a grain of salt. This is the internet, so take mine with a grain of salt too. It's worth doing your own research from experts. I don't know how much canned chili you keep, but FEMA recommends keeping at least a 3 day supply of non-perishable food on hand. I don't think FEMA has a reputation for having borderline paranoia.

aswanson 9y ago

Sentiments like these are why I can't Fuck with libertarians. Even though I never experienced as much, I know there but through the grace of God go I. And I don't believe in god.

throway808state 9y ago
Libertarians want less government, many of them also want basic income, and some (such as myself) want socialized medicine. I want more sharing, and fewer of the hapless fools who pretend to govern.
skookumchuck 9y ago
Libertarianism is not about not helping others. Not even remotely. Libertarianism means you can help others as much as you want to.
- mcphage 9y ago
  > Libertarianism means you can help others as much as you want to. What’s the political philosophy that means you can help others as much as they need? Maybe we should talk about that one more.
  - Consultant32452 9y ago
    With the operative word being "can" there, it's still libertarianism.
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  - Al-Khwarizmi 9y ago
    Marxism. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" - Karl Marx.
    - gaius 9y ago
      He said it in that order for a reason, Comrade, one that I don’t think people really appreciate. It means “if you don’t work you don’t eat”. Doesn’t sound so benevolent now does it?

protomyth 9y ago

I know the feeling. Luckily my parents stayed together. We picked aluminum cans. Dad found some hard construction work and I did softball scoreboards in the summer. My brother and I still regard fish as poor people food. Commodity meat shouldn’t be feed to dogs much less people. Although the peanuts and cheese were good. It affects your thinking forever. Even when doing consulting gigs, I still spent sparingly like it all could go away. Even after Dad got a decent job elsewhere, it took a few years to feel comfortable again.

analyst74 9y ago

American poverty sounds so different from Chinese poverty. I grew up during the tail years of communism and everybody was dirt poor. The interesting thing is, nobody was financially stressed, starvation and homelessness was not a thing. I ended up developing an abundance mentality and terrible money management skills. Looking even further back, my parents experienced the height of policy stupidity and barely survived the great famine which killed millions. It scarred them for life, but also pushed them to make more money and live frugally even after achieving financial security.

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suj1th 9y ago
I can relate to this. I grew up in India when India was a closed economy, with anything (commodities or services) either too expensive or limited by license raj. My father, being a lowly government official, did have a steady but meagre income. Groceries and mortgage were always on his mind. But, he also had his habit of never borrowing, in spite of dire need. Never kept a credit card either (to this day). I have learnt that brand of frugality from him.
nichtich 9y ago
By the time you are born it's already getting better. Yes it's dirt poor compared to now but is already on the trend of improving. So the stress level would be very different than the "suddenly become poor" people. Another point is back in those days the majority of population are poor, which means the social structure are build around poor people. Food, cloths, education, haircut, all of them targeted poor people. You don't need to live in the corner of the city and go great length to find products suited for you.
fastball 9y ago
"Chinese poverty is different from American poverty because we weren't worried about starving." Mentions a mass starvation event in China only a generation before which probably killed the equivalent of 10% of the US population at the time. You might want to think about that a bit more.

dizzystar 9y ago

I grew up in poverty as well and my reaction to money is the total opposite. I never felt connected to it all. I want to be a good saver, but my understanding of the green stuff is nearly nil. It's just sort of there and I try not to think about it. I think it's just the opposite problem. I simply don't know what to spend money on. I feel like I spend a lot of money, but somehow everyone is in deeper debt than I am. I just don't want to have all those expensive things. I grew up living out of a duffel bag and lost everything I owned in that multiple times in my life. I just don't want anything. Buying furniture for the first time was the most stressful thing I ever went through. When I bought my first bed, I just laid on a bed in the shop and just stayed there having a mental breakdown. I walked out nearly in tears and slept on my floor for a full week before I finally called and ordered the bed. It was $700 and felt like I took a nose dive off a cliff. The biggest effect is my appetite. No one understands why I'm so underweight. If you ever go a week without eating, believe me, your desire to eat food goes out the window. Those first bites of food makes you incredibly ill. I eat everyday now, but three meals is overkill.

heurist 9y ago
I buy things that become more valuable over time. Investing has become a fun way for me to "spend" that cash I otherwise hoard. Spending money on anything else is very difficult for me.
- norin 9y ago
  I spend most of my money on books. I rarely ever spend money on anything else. Living as a kid with my grandma had a huge impact on things I did in my later years. We were poor but always had access to books.
  - hycaria 9y ago
    Don't you have access to libraries ?
    - KozmoNau7 9y ago

zrb05293 9y ago

My childhood was one of extreme poverty. We were never homeless. But my dad worked so much we never saw him. And the toll it took on him was such that my brother and I were basically terrified of him even into our early adulthood. He was brutal, mean, always angry. Our mother died when I was 10 and he abandoned us with our grandparents. I don’t blame him anymore. He had a breakdown. The world finally destroyed him. But life with our grandparents was better. They were kind and in their own harsh way taught us we had to be tough and make better decisions. It didn’t stick with my brother. He’s been borderline psychotic ever since mom died. I think it destroyed him, too. But even now at 30 I count every penny. Every expense is important. Even going on a date with my wife, I’m afraid the whole time. What if...what if..it’s nearly constant. All that to say I think I understand how you feel. And I agree, those who haven’t and don’t have to live like we did just can’t understand it. That’s not a value judgement. It’s just human nature.

kraig911 9y ago
Almost the same happened with my father. It's why I think poverty can span generations easily. I am grateful now my mom and dad got a divorce but during that dark time I only saw my dad if either myself or my brother were in trouble or if we happened to be running around the trailer late at night.
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mrep 9y ago

> The poor and destitute simply need help. Upvote for the story but "simply need help" is not a policy a government can use to solve the problem. Granted, solving this problem for everyone is nigh impossible but maybe you can give us an example of a policy that would have helped out your individual family to give us some ideas?

jopsen 9y ago
When half your country frame it as: makers VS takers. Then "simply need help" would be a significant policy change. Lots of other developed countries have made inroads on poverty. Just look.
- mrep 9y ago
  > When half your country frame it as: makers VS takers. I have never heard of that term before. What does that mean? > Then "simply need help" would be a significant policy change. Again, governments are based on policies and rules. "simply need help" is way to abstract. > Lots of other developed countries have made inroads on poverty. Just look. Which policies and rules used by other governments do you recommend?
  - Hextinium 9y ago
    Conservatives in the deep south I find have belief in this, they think that giving money to people that have none is fundamentally stealing from them through taxation and then giving it to someone that doesn't work as hard as them.
    - goatlover 9y ago
      As opposed to giving it to defense contractors or farm subsidies. It's funny how conservatives only focus on tax dollars going to the poor.
      - jopsen 9y ago

contingencies 9y ago

I hate seeing people's comments on stories around this topic Stay Hungry. Stay Foolish. - Steve Jobs

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ataturk 9y ago

I feel ya. My dad was a Boilermaker. There were good years and some really bad years during the "boom" time of the 1980s! He worked out of town a lot. Phrases like "six tens" or "seven tens" meant how many days per week of work and the hours. He could get time and half on Saturday and double time on Sunday. He'd work like that for 3-4 months, then get laid off and our family would coast on what he earned plus unemployment for awhile after. We were never homeless or living out of a car, though. We had a crappy house, and probably no one thought I would ever amount to anything. Growing up there was sometimes fun, not like suburbia at all. It made me a man, not like these cuckold twats who are scared of their own shadows. I learned how to fix things and get by on limited resources and it definitely made me eager for a better career and better life, something which I worked very hard to obtain. The saddest thing of all is that my dad was a great carpenter and fabricator and should have been building houses in the 1980s, a business he had already worked in and knew how to do. At some point he become obsessed with that union pension and couldn't think about anything else. So while a lot of people were getting rich in the '80s, our family was just scraping by. He got that pension, though. But he almost got us killed trying to stay in that union. Anyone who thinks unions are happy fun organizations don't know anything about unions and what they do to their members--it's just another power structure with the regular people acting as raw meat. The Boilermakers tried their level best to force members out before they could reach retirement age and collect their pensions. They were horrible to women and minorities, too. Imagine a bunch of bikers, just the trash of the world, running the show and you have a pretty good picture in your head of that union.

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Clanan 9y ago

> We live in a society though that thinks someone else is going to take care of the problems. It's worse than this. Now society thinks that government is going to take care of the problems. The past fifty years and the War on Poverty have shown us how well that works. I wish that, instead of spending more untold billions on new programs and bureaucracies, government would switch to facilitating citizens to create, man, and implement the help that is so sorely needed by the poor and helpless. Encourage the citizenry to take personal responsibility for helping others, instead of offering an easy out to do nothing.

frandroid 9y ago

> I don't know why I'm saying all this the solution is simple but the problem is hard to acknowledge. The poor and destitute simply need help. We live in a society though that thinks someone else is going to take care of the problems. When we do finally give help it's so conditional and shamed that the hole of guilt someone fell in is practically inescapable. I really don't understand why this is so controversial in North America. The 'Fuck You All, I've Got Mine' mentality is a sign of a morally dead society.