5 ms·

Sounds like a way for airlines to engage in illegal/unethical behavior (price fixing, collusion, etc.) behind the thin veil of "algorithms." At least third-part

Sounds like a way for airlines to engage in illegal/unethical behavior (price fixing, collusion, etc.) behind the thin veil of "algorithms." At least third-party referral websites have already done this using cookies, though I guess airlines doing it is the next logical step. I'll simply have my nephew buy my tickets (for a $5 tip) if they price gouge based on third-party lookup of my personal information. Airlines will make money from this in the short term, and poorer relatives will too I guess. But I think in the end it's the lawyers that will profit the most. It's a class-action lawsuit just waiting to happen

nikanj 9y ago
I think they will gouge your nephew more, if he has less money. Offering better benefits and lower prices to frequent customers is widespread across every industry, and airlines want to get in on that too. It’s the opposite model of traditional enterprise sales, where prices go up when the customer has more money.
- opportune 9y ago
  Depends on the implementation. I have no loyalty to any particular airline and someone referencing a third party database containing my address/ZIP/employment history could reasonably deduce that I have disposable income - I could see myself either getting gouged as a result or getting a lower price in an attempt to secure a loyal customer. An interesting side-effect I just thought of could be that business commuters' flight prices may increase, and business travelers may even prefer that. I have a consultant friend that is allowed to use personal cards for work-related expenses so he would enjoy the increased cash-back and miles. What a world of perverse incentives
  - nikanj 9y ago
    Seats in the lowest class economy earn miles at -50%, sometimes even -75%. Seats in business class earn them at 300%. Yup, if you spend more of your employer's money, you earn a nicer vacation for yourself.
    - jk2323 9y ago
      0% has become common (think Lufthanasa, Air India or Singapore Airlines) Tip for the pro: Change your airline. I can recommend Aeroflot and Turkish Airlines.
      - dzhiurgis 9y ago
        > Aeroflot I'd rather take a train to gulag than use anything Russia-related. They keep appearing as cheapest carriers in comparison sites for departures from small Eastern European capitols. Whoever took em before are horrified and never do them again.
        jk2323 9y ago
        > Whoeve Not me. I am an Aeroflot Gold Elite status holder. They have one of the most modern fleets and customer service is pretty good in my opinion. Also the stock does well the last time I checked. Cheapest carrier? - They have a good hub solution via Moscow - I assume they have cheap oil - I assume they don't have to pay fees to fly over Russia (a pretty big country the last time I checked) http://www.businessinsider.com/countries-charge-foreign-airlines-to-fly-through-airspace-travel-planes-international-flight-2017-9 http://www.businessinsider.com/countries-charge-foreign-airl...
- hkmurakami 9y ago
  I've flown united for 30 years and I'm finally off the loyalty wagon since they've eroded any reason to be a frequent flyer status holder.
  - gaius 9y ago
    Same with BA. They hired a new CEO from a budget airline so budget that noone had even heard of it in the UK. And now he is determined to turn our once-prestigious flag carrier into a clone of it.
    - herrschnapps 9y ago
      Having flown BA to Turkey last year, I was not impressed. I'd choose a budget airline like Norwegian over BA now. BA didn't do anything wrong, I just can't see how they justify charging 5-star carrier costs for a budget experience.
nradov 9y ago
Or shop in incognito mode.
- ehnto 9y ago
  It was my understanding that device fingerprinting can give you a unique ID anyway? I know retargetting has been able to tell when I have been in a store without a link between the stores accounts and my incognito session that I am aware of. Also when I have just entered the store that day. I no longer shop there because of it by the way, any advertisers reading this. If you were curious where the limit is, it's using information based on my physical location.
  - lostmsu 9y ago
    You can also use a different browser.
    - madez 9y ago
      Mozilla is not holding your back against browser, device or user fingerprinting. There are many attacks to fingerprint a browser/device/user, and Firefox doesn't protect you against them but instead it gives lots of data right away. It's disheartening to see so little care for defending the user.
      - opencl 9y ago
        There's anti-fingerpinting code in development which should ship in a few weeks in FF59. It's part of a broader initiative to port Tor Browser security features to mainline FF. https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/Fingerprinting https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/Fingerprinting
rayiner 9y ago
Do you have any evidence that anyone is "price fixing?" The airline market is about as competitive as it gets. Allegations of "price gouging" amount to little more than complaints that you don't like how the price discrimination works out, like a teenage boy who doesn't like having to pay more for car insurance, or someone upset that Apple charges $100 more for 32GB more of flash on an iPhone.
- jstandard 9y ago
  I interpret "price-gouging" as price discrimination. I can understand why people are unhappy about it. For the consumer in me, it feels invasive. They're getting into both my head and finances to charge me more. Despite any good intentions of rewarding loyalty, I imagine the model rarely suggests to charge someone less than they normally would. The business owner in me understands the pressures of leaving money on the table, particularly in very competitive industries. It's only costing them more money if they don't do this. It's a tough one. I've seen many examples of algos behaving badly, where my life is being run by companies that think they know everything about me. In many cases they're close, but there's still several where there's an uncanny valley of sorts and I'm trapped with recommendations that are over-optimized or close-but-not-quite-right. I'm hopeful that at some point we'll be better off, but it's a painful interim process. An aside, I don't see your teenage boy comparison being that relevant. A teenage boy has to pay more for car insurance because he's higher risk, not because he has a higher willingness to pay. Cost of insurance scales directly with risk of payout by the insurance company. Your Apple example holds up better.
- bovine3dom 9y ago
  > The airline market is about as competitive as it gets. Citation needed: the American airline industry is a textbook example of regulatory capture and protectionism [1-3]. The first reference has a nice chart which suggests that price gouging might be occurring; where else is all the extra profit coming from?. [1]: https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21721201-americans-are-treated-abysmally-their-airlines-they-should-look-europe-lessons-lack https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21721201-americans-ar... [2]: http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-welch-united-competition-20170413-story.html http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-welch-united-comp... [3]: https://reason.com/archives/2017/07/13/flying-the-fairer-skies/ https://reason.com/archives/2017/07/13/flying-the-fairer-ski...
CaptainZapp 9y ago
This only works if your nephew has the same name as yours.
- saurik 9y ago
  Whenever I've purchased airline tickets, while logged in to my United account and so clearly very tied to my specific identity (and is specifically the kind of tie that is mentioned in this article), the part of the process where I provide the information on the traveller comes well after I've been quoted solid prices. They would have to completely change the purchasing flow for your concern to make a difference (and in a way which would be extremely awkward for the process of purchasing multiple seats).
Feniks 9y ago
If an airliner can read social media and find out you have a important funeral to attend they can triple the price. But I'd hope that would be illegal.
- sokoloff 9y ago
  Historically, airlines have been sympathetic to those situations rather than extortionate. Bereavement fares have been declining as ticketing has moved online but several major carriers still offer them.

nikanj 9y ago

I think they will gouge your nephew more, if he has less money. Offering better benefits and lower prices to frequent customers is widespread across every industry, and airlines want to get in on that too. It’s the opposite model of traditional enterprise sales, where prices go up when the customer has more money.

opportune 9y ago
Depends on the implementation. I have no loyalty to any particular airline and someone referencing a third party database containing my address/ZIP/employment history could reasonably deduce that I have disposable income - I could see myself either getting gouged as a result or getting a lower price in an attempt to secure a loyal customer. An interesting side-effect I just thought of could be that business commuters' flight prices may increase, and business travelers may even prefer that. I have a consultant friend that is allowed to use personal cards for work-related expenses so he would enjoy the increased cash-back and miles. What a world of perverse incentives
- nikanj 9y ago
  Seats in the lowest class economy earn miles at -50%, sometimes even -75%. Seats in business class earn them at 300%. Yup, if you spend more of your employer's money, you earn a nicer vacation for yourself.
  - jk2323 9y ago
    0% has become common (think Lufthanasa, Air India or Singapore Airlines) Tip for the pro: Change your airline. I can recommend Aeroflot and Turkish Airlines.
    - dzhiurgis 9y ago
      > Aeroflot I'd rather take a train to gulag than use anything Russia-related. They keep appearing as cheapest carriers in comparison sites for departures from small Eastern European capitols. Whoever took em before are horrified and never do them again.
      - jk2323 9y ago
        > Whoeve Not me. I am an Aeroflot Gold Elite status holder. They have one of the most modern fleets and customer service is pretty good in my opinion. Also the stock does well the last time I checked. Cheapest carrier? - They have a good hub solution via Moscow - I assume they have cheap oil - I assume they don't have to pay fees to fly over Russia (a pretty big country the last time I checked) http://www.businessinsider.com/countries-charge-foreign-airlines-to-fly-through-airspace-travel-planes-international-flight-2017-9 http://www.businessinsider.com/countries-charge-foreign-airl...
hkmurakami 9y ago
I've flown united for 30 years and I'm finally off the loyalty wagon since they've eroded any reason to be a frequent flyer status holder.
- gaius 9y ago
  Same with BA. They hired a new CEO from a budget airline so budget that noone had even heard of it in the UK. And now he is determined to turn our once-prestigious flag carrier into a clone of it.
  - herrschnapps 9y ago
    Having flown BA to Turkey last year, I was not impressed. I'd choose a budget airline like Norwegian over BA now. BA didn't do anything wrong, I just can't see how they justify charging 5-star carrier costs for a budget experience.

nradov 9y ago

Or shop in incognito mode.

ehnto 9y ago
It was my understanding that device fingerprinting can give you a unique ID anyway? I know retargetting has been able to tell when I have been in a store without a link between the stores accounts and my incognito session that I am aware of. Also when I have just entered the store that day. I no longer shop there because of it by the way, any advertisers reading this. If you were curious where the limit is, it's using information based on my physical location.
- lostmsu 9y ago
  You can also use a different browser.
  - madez 9y ago
    Mozilla is not holding your back against browser, device or user fingerprinting. There are many attacks to fingerprint a browser/device/user, and Firefox doesn't protect you against them but instead it gives lots of data right away. It's disheartening to see so little care for defending the user.
    - opencl 9y ago
      There's anti-fingerpinting code in development which should ship in a few weeks in FF59. It's part of a broader initiative to port Tor Browser security features to mainline FF. https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/Fingerprinting https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/Fingerprinting

rayiner 9y ago

Do you have any evidence that anyone is "price fixing?" The airline market is about as competitive as it gets. Allegations of "price gouging" amount to little more than complaints that you don't like how the price discrimination works out, like a teenage boy who doesn't like having to pay more for car insurance, or someone upset that Apple charges $100 more for 32GB more of flash on an iPhone.

jstandard 9y ago
I interpret "price-gouging" as price discrimination. I can understand why people are unhappy about it. For the consumer in me, it feels invasive. They're getting into both my head and finances to charge me more. Despite any good intentions of rewarding loyalty, I imagine the model rarely suggests to charge someone less than they normally would. The business owner in me understands the pressures of leaving money on the table, particularly in very competitive industries. It's only costing them more money if they don't do this. It's a tough one. I've seen many examples of algos behaving badly, where my life is being run by companies that think they know everything about me. In many cases they're close, but there's still several where there's an uncanny valley of sorts and I'm trapped with recommendations that are over-optimized or close-but-not-quite-right. I'm hopeful that at some point we'll be better off, but it's a painful interim process. An aside, I don't see your teenage boy comparison being that relevant. A teenage boy has to pay more for car insurance because he's higher risk, not because he has a higher willingness to pay. Cost of insurance scales directly with risk of payout by the insurance company. Your Apple example holds up better.
bovine3dom 9y ago
> The airline market is about as competitive as it gets. Citation needed: the American airline industry is a textbook example of regulatory capture and protectionism [1-3]. The first reference has a nice chart which suggests that price gouging might be occurring; where else is all the extra profit coming from?. [1]: https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21721201-americans-are-treated-abysmally-their-airlines-they-should-look-europe-lessons-lack https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21721201-americans-ar... [2]: http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-welch-united-competition-20170413-story.html http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-welch-united-comp... [3]: https://reason.com/archives/2017/07/13/flying-the-fairer-skies/ https://reason.com/archives/2017/07/13/flying-the-fairer-ski...

CaptainZapp 9y ago

This only works if your nephew has the same name as yours.

saurik 9y ago
Whenever I've purchased airline tickets, while logged in to my United account and so clearly very tied to my specific identity (and is specifically the kind of tie that is mentioned in this article), the part of the process where I provide the information on the traveller comes well after I've been quoted solid prices. They would have to completely change the purchasing flow for your concern to make a difference (and in a way which would be extremely awkward for the process of purchasing multiple seats).

Feniks 9y ago

If an airliner can read social media and find out you have a important funeral to attend they can triple the price. But I'd hope that would be illegal.

sokoloff 9y ago
Historically, airlines have been sympathetic to those situations rather than extortionate. Bereavement fares have been declining as ticketing has moved online but several major carriers still offer them.