4 ms·

I think we (Europeans) generally argue that paying taxes and universal healthcare is great not that earning less is. Also while some professions pay less others

I think we (Europeans) generally argue that paying taxes and universal healthcare is great not that earning less is. Also while some professions pay less others pay more (like working in a grocery store) so it’s not that clear cut.

adventured 9y ago
That's a pretty broad statement about Europe. The majority of Europe is poor compared to Sweden or Germany. If you're making ~$60,000 or more in the US, you are overwhelmingly going to have good health insurance. If you're making $140,000, you're going to have great health insurance. I fail to see how universal healthcare is a lure in this case. The US has a far more progressive income tax system than most of the developed European nations (Scandinavian nations for example have a highly regressive income tax system compared to the US [1]). In the US the rich pay nearly all income taxes (the top 25% pay ~90% of all income taxes). If you're poor in the US you get free healthcare. Grocery stores in Europe do not pay better than in the US. The majority of Europe has a median income that doesn't reach the US average minimum wage (state blended). A cashier in Germany makes a similar wage as a cashier in the US (the median in the US is around $21k). The US has considerably higher wages than all nations in Europe except for four (Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Switzerland). The EU's median income is 60% that of the US. So if you're going to compare, it doesn't make sense to ever say "Europe" - you can't reasonably compare Russia, Poland or Spain to the US on income. It's about as useful as saying "Asia" in an income comparison. [1] https://taxfoundation.org/how-scandinavian-countries-pay-their-government-spending/ https://taxfoundation.org/how-scandinavian-countries-pay-the...
- odino 9y ago
  > If you're making ~$60,000 or more in the US, you are overwhelmingly going to have good health insurance. If you're making $140,000, you're going to have great health insurance. I fail to see how universal healthcare is a lure in this case. If you get insured. I think most Europeans are proud to pay taxes to make sure a random fellow living down the street who got cancer can afford his treatments. At least that has been my mentality around taxes for as long as I've lived there. Sure, taxes don't all go towards nice things :) but at the end of the day I'm proud to be helpful to those who are in need. Never understood the healthcare system in the US, it just sounds "wrong" to me.
  - refurb 9y ago
    The US has a socialized system of healthcare. It's indirect in the sense that if you can't pay you get covered anyways and the hospital takes a loss. If you're low income you get Medicaid, if you're old you get Medicare. People with cancer who get no treatment at all in the US is very rare and usually something else is happening behind the scenes.
    - araes 9y ago
      This has Many notable exceptions. Due to the housing meltdown, many people have underwater realty of negative value, yet this asset disqualifies many low cost programs. The asset limits are very low on Medicaid ($2k individual, $3k couple) Even medicare is quite low ($7.5k, $11.5k). To qualify, you must effectively divest all your assets and it becomes an insurance bet with the state that you'll die quickly. (@ $7k/month for a nursing home, its not a very good bet) If you can't pay hospitals and nursing homes kick you out, just happened to a friend. Medicare wouldn't pay for more than two months of care -> on the street. For most people, the value of selling their house (say $100k, would pay for only 1 year of senior care in the US) Even better, the care is often lackluster for the cost. (Admittedly at $7k/month I would be expecting marble floors and gold faucets)
      - refurb 9y ago
        Medicare has no income limits. It's available to all over 65, as lots ng as you've paid in.
        araes 9y ago
        You are correct. I was mistakenly quoting the Medicare Savings Program. Cannot edit so posting this to reflect.
- the_mitsuhiko 9y ago
  > The majority of Europe is poor compared to Sweden or Germany. There are some poor countries like Bulgaria and Romania. Most of Europe is doing just fine. Like you have poor Europe you also have poor US cities and countries and if you compare the poor parts you will find them not all too different. > If you're making ~$60,000 or more in the US, you are overwhelmingly going to have good health insurance. If you're making $140,000, you're going to have great health insurance. I fail to see how universal healthcare is a lure in this case. Even if you have great insurance the knowledge that whatever happens to you, you are fine is an amazing feeling. Also knowing that everybody (with exceptions like people who are there illegally and not entitled to healthcare) having coverage adds to your personal quality of life tremendously. > The US has a far more progressive income tax system than most of the developed European nations It’s not about how progressive the system is but how much you pay and get for it. In the US you need disposable income to get qualitatively high services and most of those are individual things. Eg: public transit and things like that are hard to get and underfunded. > Grocery stores in Europe do not pay better than in the US. A grocery store worker in central Europe earning minimum wage or equivalent gets social security, child support, maternity leave of a year, a guaranteed job after returning and a dystem that supports their children and partner. It’s not the money that matters but what you get. In Austria for instance someone working in a grocery store has a minimum wage of 21000 eur a year minimum, guaranteed increases every year. A 38 euro work week with guaranteed overtime pay, a guaranteed weekend (and at least every secon saturday off), one year of maternity/paternity money and time off, 5 weeks of holiday, two months of notice, unemployment insurance, guaranteed salaries in case of bancruptcy and much more.
  - EB-Barrington 9y ago
    For balance: in Ukraine, a population approximately five times larger than Austria - a grocery store worker would be considered lucky to make 4000 EUR per year. Further - for tens (hundreds?) of millions of people in Europe, in countries such as Hungary, Serbia, Poland, Macedonia, Albania, Bulgaria, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Czech Republic, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro, Moldova, Russia, Belarus, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia - even parts of Greece and Italy - earning 21000 EUR per year is an unobtainable dream for working in a grocery store.
- mnm1 9y ago
  "If you're making $140,000, you're going to have great health insurance." I am and I'm not. This depends on your employer. Otherwise, one can spend tens of thousands on health insurance to maintain coverage. And it could be terminated by an act of Congress at any time. Worker's compensation is also a thing. Try waiting 8 months to see a doctor for repetitive stress injuries because you've changed states and no one wants to take your case.

adventured 9y ago

That's a pretty broad statement about Europe. The majority of Europe is poor compared to Sweden or Germany. If you're making ~$60,000 or more in the US, you are overwhelmingly going to have good health insurance. If you're making $140,000, you're going to have great health insurance. I fail to see how universal healthcare is a lure in this case. The US has a far more progressive income tax system than most of the developed European nations (Scandinavian nations for example have a highly regressive income tax system compared to the US [1]). In the US the rich pay nearly all income taxes (the top 25% pay ~90% of all income taxes). If you're poor in the US you get free healthcare. Grocery stores in Europe do not pay better than in the US. The majority of Europe has a median income that doesn't reach the US average minimum wage (state blended). A cashier in Germany makes a similar wage as a cashier in the US (the median in the US is around $21k). The US has considerably higher wages than all nations in Europe except for four (Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Switzerland). The EU's median income is 60% that of the US. So if you're going to compare, it doesn't make sense to ever say "Europe" - you can't reasonably compare Russia, Poland or Spain to the US on income. It's about as useful as saying "Asia" in an income comparison. [1] https://taxfoundation.org/how-scandinavian-countries-pay-their-government-spending/ https://taxfoundation.org/how-scandinavian-countries-pay-the...

odino 9y ago
> If you're making ~$60,000 or more in the US, you are overwhelmingly going to have good health insurance. If you're making $140,000, you're going to have great health insurance. I fail to see how universal healthcare is a lure in this case. If you get insured. I think most Europeans are proud to pay taxes to make sure a random fellow living down the street who got cancer can afford his treatments. At least that has been my mentality around taxes for as long as I've lived there. Sure, taxes don't all go towards nice things :) but at the end of the day I'm proud to be helpful to those who are in need. Never understood the healthcare system in the US, it just sounds "wrong" to me.
- refurb 9y ago
  The US has a socialized system of healthcare. It's indirect in the sense that if you can't pay you get covered anyways and the hospital takes a loss. If you're low income you get Medicaid, if you're old you get Medicare. People with cancer who get no treatment at all in the US is very rare and usually something else is happening behind the scenes.
  - araes 9y ago
    This has Many notable exceptions. Due to the housing meltdown, many people have underwater realty of negative value, yet this asset disqualifies many low cost programs. The asset limits are very low on Medicaid ($2k individual, $3k couple) Even medicare is quite low ($7.5k, $11.5k). To qualify, you must effectively divest all your assets and it becomes an insurance bet with the state that you'll die quickly. (@ $7k/month for a nursing home, its not a very good bet) If you can't pay hospitals and nursing homes kick you out, just happened to a friend. Medicare wouldn't pay for more than two months of care -> on the street. For most people, the value of selling their house (say $100k, would pay for only 1 year of senior care in the US) Even better, the care is often lackluster for the cost. (Admittedly at $7k/month I would be expecting marble floors and gold faucets)
    - refurb 9y ago
      Medicare has no income limits. It's available to all over 65, as lots ng as you've paid in.
      - araes 9y ago
        You are correct. I was mistakenly quoting the Medicare Savings Program. Cannot edit so posting this to reflect.
the_mitsuhiko 9y ago
> The majority of Europe is poor compared to Sweden or Germany. There are some poor countries like Bulgaria and Romania. Most of Europe is doing just fine. Like you have poor Europe you also have poor US cities and countries and if you compare the poor parts you will find them not all too different. > If you're making ~$60,000 or more in the US, you are overwhelmingly going to have good health insurance. If you're making $140,000, you're going to have great health insurance. I fail to see how universal healthcare is a lure in this case. Even if you have great insurance the knowledge that whatever happens to you, you are fine is an amazing feeling. Also knowing that everybody (with exceptions like people who are there illegally and not entitled to healthcare) having coverage adds to your personal quality of life tremendously. > The US has a far more progressive income tax system than most of the developed European nations It’s not about how progressive the system is but how much you pay and get for it. In the US you need disposable income to get qualitatively high services and most of those are individual things. Eg: public transit and things like that are hard to get and underfunded. > Grocery stores in Europe do not pay better than in the US. A grocery store worker in central Europe earning minimum wage or equivalent gets social security, child support, maternity leave of a year, a guaranteed job after returning and a dystem that supports their children and partner. It’s not the money that matters but what you get. In Austria for instance someone working in a grocery store has a minimum wage of 21000 eur a year minimum, guaranteed increases every year. A 38 euro work week with guaranteed overtime pay, a guaranteed weekend (and at least every secon saturday off), one year of maternity/paternity money and time off, 5 weeks of holiday, two months of notice, unemployment insurance, guaranteed salaries in case of bancruptcy and much more.
- EB-Barrington 9y ago
  For balance: in Ukraine, a population approximately five times larger than Austria - a grocery store worker would be considered lucky to make 4000 EUR per year. Further - for tens (hundreds?) of millions of people in Europe, in countries such as Hungary, Serbia, Poland, Macedonia, Albania, Bulgaria, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Czech Republic, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro, Moldova, Russia, Belarus, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia - even parts of Greece and Italy - earning 21000 EUR per year is an unobtainable dream for working in a grocery store.
mnm1 9y ago
"If you're making $140,000, you're going to have great health insurance." I am and I'm not. This depends on your employer. Otherwise, one can spend tens of thousands on health insurance to maintain coverage. And it could be terminated by an act of Congress at any time. Worker's compensation is also a thing. Try waiting 8 months to see a doctor for repetitive stress injuries because you've changed states and no one wants to take your case.