6 ms·

>I’d argue my lifestyle is a lot better too. Looks like the majority of the European "better lifestyle" involves convincing people on the internet that making

by sevagh 9y ago

>I’d argue my lifestyle is a lot better too. Looks like the majority of the European "better lifestyle" involves convincing people on the internet that making a fraction of a Bay Area salary is somehow a good thing.

virtuowl 9y ago
Well, you get good healthcare and pension in most european countries. You can live a lot cheaper than in the big cities in the us and there is no gangs and not as many drug addicts
- walshemj 9y ago
  Compare housing costs in London, Paris etc vs SV - yes health care Is nice but that is used as an excuse by employers who also benefit from the European health systems.
albertgoeswoof 9y ago
I’m not so sure, SF is nice but it’s not particularly special if you take away the high salaries and great tech connections.
- passiveincomelg 9y ago
  Agreed. And the "perfect weather" is also debatable. I was there twice, in August and in December. Both times it was too cold. I wouldn't want to move there, but I'd love to stay for a month or two. Too bad that's not possible for me yet (neither rich nor able to work while staying in the US). Maybe this global work permit thing that the UN supposedly looked into a while ago actually does happen one day...
toxicFork 9y ago
It depends on what you'd like to do with your life. I'm originally from a small European island and I'm making a reasonable amount working in a city. I'm really missing the significantly lower stress, fewer and more friendly people, lack of traffic, different kinds of (political or otherwise) discussions, etcetera. I have friends who have sacrificed a large percentage of their salary to return to a "happier" life in that aspect. You can choose which type of "unit" you want to have more value in your life.
RALaBarge 9y ago
I dont think anyone who has a well rounded view on life thinks that the main import of your time here on earth is how large your salary is. Then again, if you are living in SF on your own volution, I bet there are a lot of things that you have convinced yourself are normal, to feel that you are part of the crowd there - and of course know that salary is the most important thing there is in life!
em500 9y ago
It depends very much on life stage. I make about 2/3 of these figures in Amsterdam now, and have declined recent opportunities to move to the Bay Area. If I were single and 10 years younger, I would have jumped at the chance. But now at 40 with two young kids in nice schools, a comfy house with a 15 minute commute and a partner with a good income, it takes a lot more to make me move.
- 20180201 9y ago
  as a software engineer, you're correct. but most managers and executives @ 40 years old make at least 300k+ in the bay area if you include total compensation i.e. sellable stock and options. in a married couple it's common to make over 500k combined. please remember that i'm talking about a really good job, in the bay area. this isn't "normal" anywhere else in the US except maybe LA or NY or if you are a top executive in the energy industry in texas. they're just not blabbing about it on reddit or hn.
eertami 9y ago
Or maybe they simply have 0 interest living in a place where the majority of inhabitants are young male tech workers. I can't think of anything more dull. Salary offer would.need to be much more than the bay currently pays before I'd even consider it.
- adventured 9y ago
  Your premise is incorrect on two counts. San Francisco is 51/49, male/female. Not a particularly high imbalance at all. The median age is 38, which is older than the median age in all of California. The majority of inhabitants in SF, are in fact not young male tech workers.
  - toephu2 9y ago
    sources?
the_mitsuhiko 9y ago
I think we (Europeans) generally argue that paying taxes and universal healthcare is great not that earning less is. Also while some professions pay less others pay more (like working in a grocery store) so it’s not that clear cut.
- adventured 9y ago
  That's a pretty broad statement about Europe. The majority of Europe is poor compared to Sweden or Germany. If you're making ~$60,000 or more in the US, you are overwhelmingly going to have good health insurance. If you're making $140,000, you're going to have great health insurance. I fail to see how universal healthcare is a lure in this case. The US has a far more progressive income tax system than most of the developed European nations (Scandinavian nations for example have a highly regressive income tax system compared to the US [1]). In the US the rich pay nearly all income taxes (the top 25% pay ~90% of all income taxes). If you're poor in the US you get free healthcare. Grocery stores in Europe do not pay better than in the US. The majority of Europe has a median income that doesn't reach the US average minimum wage (state blended). A cashier in Germany makes a similar wage as a cashier in the US (the median in the US is around $21k). The US has considerably higher wages than all nations in Europe except for four (Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Switzerland). The EU's median income is 60% that of the US. So if you're going to compare, it doesn't make sense to ever say "Europe" - you can't reasonably compare Russia, Poland or Spain to the US on income. It's about as useful as saying "Asia" in an income comparison. [1] https://taxfoundation.org/how-scandinavian-countries-pay-their-government-spending/ https://taxfoundation.org/how-scandinavian-countries-pay-the...
  - odino 9y ago
    > If you're making ~$60,000 or more in the US, you are overwhelmingly going to have good health insurance. If you're making $140,000, you're going to have great health insurance. I fail to see how universal healthcare is a lure in this case. If you get insured. I think most Europeans are proud to pay taxes to make sure a random fellow living down the street who got cancer can afford his treatments. At least that has been my mentality around taxes for as long as I've lived there. Sure, taxes don't all go towards nice things :) but at the end of the day I'm proud to be helpful to those who are in need. Never understood the healthcare system in the US, it just sounds "wrong" to me.
CalRobert 9y ago
I moved from CA to Europe. Don't regret it. I get a month and a half of vacation, a nice walkable city, and don't feel like I live in a dying democracy. Two days ago my infant was sick. Made one phone call and thirty minutes later a qualified gp showed up at my apartment and made sure everything was fine. At 2 AM. For free. In the US I could make more money but would spend it all on rent and cars (and private school tuition in a few years), and my time on commuting and explaining to colleagues that I never check email on vacation. Ever. I'll keep what I've got. Also, lower eu salaries should make it easier to start a business if the mood strikes.
- toephu2 9y ago
  Nothing in life is "free". Europeans pay way higher taxes than Americans. "would spend it all on rent and cars" Excuses. If you don't want to make it work that's fine. But there are tens of thousands of people making it work in the Bay Area. #1 Don't have a car and live in SF, or buy a used cheap Honda or Toyota. #2 Look at Rooms on craigslist, you can easily find a room or in-law room w/ own private bathroom IN San Francisco for under $1600/mo. All this for a <30min commute to your tech company of choice in SF. The media and everyone else likes to talk about how expensive it is to live in SF saying it costs $4k/mo for a 1bed room apartment...except these people are cherrypicking the most expensive and nicest places to live in SF. You can easily find cheaper on craigslist.
  - CalRobert 9y ago
    Excuses??? Excuses are for when you've done something wrong. Why the hostility? I decided to give europe a try and liked it, so I stayed. sheesh. Anyway I had a good time in the bay, in Berkeley. But at this stage in my life I like it here. Also, even though I could have gotten "unlimited" time off in the US (note the huge scare quotes), my wife couldn't have, and here she gets ample holidays too.
  - philipwhiuk 9y ago
    Healthcare in the US is twice as expensive and outcome significantly worse.

by sevagh 9y ago

virtuowl 9y ago

Well, you get good healthcare and pension in most european countries. You can live a lot cheaper than in the big cities in the us and there is no gangs and not as many drug addicts

walshemj 9y ago
Compare housing costs in London, Paris etc vs SV - yes health care Is nice but that is used as an excuse by employers who also benefit from the European health systems.

albertgoeswoof 9y ago

I’m not so sure, SF is nice but it’s not particularly special if you take away the high salaries and great tech connections.

passiveincomelg 9y ago
Agreed. And the "perfect weather" is also debatable. I was there twice, in August and in December. Both times it was too cold. I wouldn't want to move there, but I'd love to stay for a month or two. Too bad that's not possible for me yet (neither rich nor able to work while staying in the US). Maybe this global work permit thing that the UN supposedly looked into a while ago actually does happen one day...

toxicFork 9y ago

It depends on what you'd like to do with your life. I'm originally from a small European island and I'm making a reasonable amount working in a city. I'm really missing the significantly lower stress, fewer and more friendly people, lack of traffic, different kinds of (political or otherwise) discussions, etcetera. I have friends who have sacrificed a large percentage of their salary to return to a "happier" life in that aspect. You can choose which type of "unit" you want to have more value in your life.

RALaBarge 9y ago

I dont think anyone who has a well rounded view on life thinks that the main import of your time here on earth is how large your salary is. Then again, if you are living in SF on your own volution, I bet there are a lot of things that you have convinced yourself are normal, to feel that you are part of the crowd there - and of course know that salary is the most important thing there is in life!

em500 9y ago

It depends very much on life stage. I make about 2/3 of these figures in Amsterdam now, and have declined recent opportunities to move to the Bay Area. If I were single and 10 years younger, I would have jumped at the chance. But now at 40 with two young kids in nice schools, a comfy house with a 15 minute commute and a partner with a good income, it takes a lot more to make me move.

20180201 9y ago
as a software engineer, you're correct. but most managers and executives @ 40 years old make at least 300k+ in the bay area if you include total compensation i.e. sellable stock and options. in a married couple it's common to make over 500k combined. please remember that i'm talking about a really good job, in the bay area. this isn't "normal" anywhere else in the US except maybe LA or NY or if you are a top executive in the energy industry in texas. they're just not blabbing about it on reddit or hn.

eertami 9y ago

Or maybe they simply have 0 interest living in a place where the majority of inhabitants are young male tech workers. I can't think of anything more dull. Salary offer would.need to be much more than the bay currently pays before I'd even consider it.

adventured 9y ago
Your premise is incorrect on two counts. San Francisco is 51/49, male/female. Not a particularly high imbalance at all. The median age is 38, which is older than the median age in all of California. The majority of inhabitants in SF, are in fact not young male tech workers.
- toephu2 9y ago
  sources?

the_mitsuhiko 9y ago

I think we (Europeans) generally argue that paying taxes and universal healthcare is great not that earning less is. Also while some professions pay less others pay more (like working in a grocery store) so it’s not that clear cut.

adventured 9y ago
That's a pretty broad statement about Europe. The majority of Europe is poor compared to Sweden or Germany. If you're making ~$60,000 or more in the US, you are overwhelmingly going to have good health insurance. If you're making $140,000, you're going to have great health insurance. I fail to see how universal healthcare is a lure in this case. The US has a far more progressive income tax system than most of the developed European nations (Scandinavian nations for example have a highly regressive income tax system compared to the US [1]). In the US the rich pay nearly all income taxes (the top 25% pay ~90% of all income taxes). If you're poor in the US you get free healthcare. Grocery stores in Europe do not pay better than in the US. The majority of Europe has a median income that doesn't reach the US average minimum wage (state blended). A cashier in Germany makes a similar wage as a cashier in the US (the median in the US is around $21k). The US has considerably higher wages than all nations in Europe except for four (Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Switzerland). The EU's median income is 60% that of the US. So if you're going to compare, it doesn't make sense to ever say "Europe" - you can't reasonably compare Russia, Poland or Spain to the US on income. It's about as useful as saying "Asia" in an income comparison. [1] https://taxfoundation.org/how-scandinavian-countries-pay-their-government-spending/ https://taxfoundation.org/how-scandinavian-countries-pay-the...
- odino 9y ago
  > If you're making ~$60,000 or more in the US, you are overwhelmingly going to have good health insurance. If you're making $140,000, you're going to have great health insurance. I fail to see how universal healthcare is a lure in this case. If you get insured. I think most Europeans are proud to pay taxes to make sure a random fellow living down the street who got cancer can afford his treatments. At least that has been my mentality around taxes for as long as I've lived there. Sure, taxes don't all go towards nice things :) but at the end of the day I'm proud to be helpful to those who are in need. Never understood the healthcare system in the US, it just sounds "wrong" to me.

CalRobert 9y ago

I moved from CA to Europe. Don't regret it. I get a month and a half of vacation, a nice walkable city, and don't feel like I live in a dying democracy. Two days ago my infant was sick. Made one phone call and thirty minutes later a qualified gp showed up at my apartment and made sure everything was fine. At 2 AM. For free. In the US I could make more money but would spend it all on rent and cars (and private school tuition in a few years), and my time on commuting and explaining to colleagues that I never check email on vacation. Ever. I'll keep what I've got. Also, lower eu salaries should make it easier to start a business if the mood strikes.

toephu2 9y ago
Nothing in life is "free". Europeans pay way higher taxes than Americans. "would spend it all on rent and cars" Excuses. If you don't want to make it work that's fine. But there are tens of thousands of people making it work in the Bay Area. #1 Don't have a car and live in SF, or buy a used cheap Honda or Toyota. #2 Look at Rooms on craigslist, you can easily find a room or in-law room w/ own private bathroom IN San Francisco for under $1600/mo. All this for a <30min commute to your tech company of choice in SF. The media and everyone else likes to talk about how expensive it is to live in SF saying it costs $4k/mo for a 1bed room apartment...except these people are cherrypicking the most expensive and nicest places to live in SF. You can easily find cheaper on craigslist.
- CalRobert 9y ago
  Excuses??? Excuses are for when you've done something wrong. Why the hostility? I decided to give europe a try and liked it, so I stayed. sheesh. Anyway I had a good time in the bay, in Berkeley. But at this stage in my life I like it here. Also, even though I could have gotten "unlimited" time off in the US (note the huge scare quotes), my wife couldn't have, and here she gets ample holidays too.
- philipwhiuk 9y ago
  Healthcare in the US is twice as expensive and outcome significantly worse.