18 ms·

>>For the next 10 months, web access would be almost nonexistent in Xinjiang, a vast region larger than Texas with a population of more than 20 million. It was

>>For the next 10 months, web access would be almost nonexistent in Xinjiang, a vast region larger than Texas with a population of more than 20 million. It was one of the most widespread, longest internet shutdowns ever. SpaceX's plans to launch their first set of satellites for their Starlink broadband constellation[1]. Uighers may be the first population to sign up for satellite subscriptions, although the Chinese government is probably looking for ways to extend Great Firewall[2] capabilities to satellites too. Hopefully users can afford the tentative pricing model of $750/year for a Starlink subscription. [1] http://www.dw.com/en/spacexs-starlink-satellite-internet-its-time-for-tough-talk-on-cyber-security-in-space/a-42678704 http://www.dw.com/en/spacexs-starlink-satellite-internet-its... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Firewall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Firewall

elefanten 9y ago
Enter the international politics of geosovereignty over the EM spectrum...
analyst74 9y ago
This is exciting news! I wonder if this will trigger space warfare, which might push nations to invest more into space, and maybe we'll finally become space-faring species in my lifetime!
- colemannugent 9y ago
  Well, that's one way to do it lol. Hurry up Musk!
- toomanybeersies 9y ago
  Or alternatively space warfare will trigger Kessler Syndrome, and we'll be trapped on this planet until we find a way to clean up all the debris.
  - lorenzhs 9y ago
    The risk of Kessler Syndrome is being exaggerated a lot on HN. These new, very large satellite constellations aren't in stable orbits, they only last for a few years before decaying naturally. So even if every satellite there were to be destroyed by some magical event, the debris would re-enter the atmosphere within at most a couple of years. It would be quite bad if geostationary orbits became unusable, but there are way fewer satellites there, and GEO is becoming less important for many of its traditional applications (e.g. communication, see for example the spacex starlink project which just had its first two test satellites launched, or planet labs' constellation of small and cheap imaging satellites). Much of this is due to a reduction in launch prices and a focus on many small and cheap satellites, instead of few large and expensive ones.
    - greglindahl 9y ago
      You might want to double-check your claim about orbits -- everything but SpaceX's 2nd constellation is not in orbits that "only last a few years". Iridium: 781 km O3b: 8000 km OneWeb: 1200 km Starlink: 1,125 km and 340 km
monocasa 9y ago
> Uighers may be the first population to sign up for satellite subscriptions If they can at all. Uighers can't even buy a knife without it being engraved with a QR code of their national ID number.
- stevenjohns 9y ago
  I recently traveled to China and went to a fairly remote area dominated by Uyghurs and didn't see anything that would indicate that level of oppression. They seemed quite free to do what they wanted to between themselves (such as buying a knife) although I imagine their political rights wouldn't be very strong.
  - otoburb 9y ago
    The parent's comment was taken directly from the OP article.
    - akira2501 9y ago
      Which is sourced from a New York Times _opinion_ piece without any documentation or second sourcing to back it up. I'm comfortable putting this in the "dubious" and/or "overblown anecdote" bin unless evidence shows otherwise.
      - el_benhameen 9y ago
        I was curious and found this article (https://www.fastcompany.com/40510238/in-xinjiang-china-some-knives-branded-with-owners-qr-codes https://www.fastcompany.com/40510238/in-xinjiang-china-some-...) which references this series of tweets (https://twitter.com/joshchin/status/943159015994880000/photo/1 https://twitter.com/joshchin/status/943159015994880000/photo...).
        mysterypie 9y ago
        Thank you for finding that! Why didn't Engadget or the New York Times put that photo into the article? Engraving kitchen knives with your ID number sounded like hyperbole. Nothing proves it like a photo or video. Same with articles on security or privacy compromises -- you need an actual exploit before (most) people take it seriously. Direct link to the photo: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DRbGEKdVAAAtVis?format=jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DRbGEKdVAAAtVis?format=jpg
dictum 9y ago
I can already see the antennas being harmonized into scrap metal.
gruez 9y ago
>Uighers may be the first population to sign up for satellite subscriptions I doubt most people there are willing to pay a significant premium for uncensored internet. And this is assuming that the government doesn't ban/crack down on "illegal" satellite internet.
ssdd 9y ago
Satellite based broadband surely is something hard to restrict, and would be nice option for Uighers. But before we declare it as the solution to problem we need to think through any risks that it can pose. There aren't going to be many providers of satellite based broadband which means prices would be high due to lack of competition. There is also the issue of traffic snooping by US government, especially if US companies going to be sole player in this field.
siruncledrew 9y ago
750 USD/yr is about 4700 RMB/yr, so that's almost 400 RMB/mo. Just guessing, but that's probably out of reach for most people.
walrus01 9y ago
Former satellite telecom engineer here, have built high capacity two way C, Ku, X and Ka band earth stations. Two big problems with China: 1. Smuggle rooftop CPE into country? Manufacture domestically in grey market factories? 2. Very low cost for Chinese law enforcement, in Xinjiang, to buy and use portable spectrum analyzers to locate the Tx frequencies coming from a 30cm-50cm sized rooftop phase array antenna, aimed at the sky. To be a viable satellite broadband product it has to have a fairly strong Tx (in EIRP). No matter what band it is in from 10.5 up to 70GHz.
- trevyn 9y ago
  Question: Would it be similarly easy to locate such a transmitter if it were on an exceptionally busy ISM band? Also, what if upstream transmission rate was reduced?
  - walrus01 9y ago
    1) The problem with using an ISM band for earth to space is precisely because it's exceptionally noisy. You want the best possible SNR for two way satellite, either direction. With a small satellite that orbits relatively close (LEO to low MEO, compared to geostationary), which will likely have a system architecture composed of numerous focused spot beams... If you were to design a series of spot beam on the satellite body with ISM band antennas aimed at major cities all you would achieve is gathering noise. 2) Not going to help much unless the upstream is so little that's basically useless. The same antenna is used for both Rx and Tx so you still need significant gain to overcome the path loss and have sufficient link budget for the space-to-earth traffic.
- baybal2 9y ago
  It will be as easy as locating an illegal VSAT station, which are countless in big cities there.
  - walrus01 9y ago
    With current geostationary-based technology any significant VSAT is easy to spot: If you want to use higher-order modulations and coding, you need gain. Which means you need at least a 1.8 to 2.4m size antenna for a serious earth station. Possibly you're confusing a small VSAT with the Rx-only TVRO type dishes which are everywhere?

elefanten 9y ago

Enter the international politics of geosovereignty over the EM spectrum...

analyst74 9y ago

This is exciting news! I wonder if this will trigger space warfare, which might push nations to invest more into space, and maybe we'll finally become space-faring species in my lifetime!

colemannugent 9y ago
Well, that's one way to do it lol. Hurry up Musk!
toomanybeersies 9y ago
Or alternatively space warfare will trigger Kessler Syndrome, and we'll be trapped on this planet until we find a way to clean up all the debris.
- lorenzhs 9y ago
  The risk of Kessler Syndrome is being exaggerated a lot on HN. These new, very large satellite constellations aren't in stable orbits, they only last for a few years before decaying naturally. So even if every satellite there were to be destroyed by some magical event, the debris would re-enter the atmosphere within at most a couple of years. It would be quite bad if geostationary orbits became unusable, but there are way fewer satellites there, and GEO is becoming less important for many of its traditional applications (e.g. communication, see for example the spacex starlink project which just had its first two test satellites launched, or planet labs' constellation of small and cheap imaging satellites). Much of this is due to a reduction in launch prices and a focus on many small and cheap satellites, instead of few large and expensive ones.
  - greglindahl 9y ago
    You might want to double-check your claim about orbits -- everything but SpaceX's 2nd constellation is not in orbits that "only last a few years". Iridium: 781 km O3b: 8000 km OneWeb: 1200 km Starlink: 1,125 km and 340 km

monocasa 9y ago

> Uighers may be the first population to sign up for satellite subscriptions If they can at all. Uighers can't even buy a knife without it being engraved with a QR code of their national ID number.

stevenjohns 9y ago
I recently traveled to China and went to a fairly remote area dominated by Uyghurs and didn't see anything that would indicate that level of oppression. They seemed quite free to do what they wanted to between themselves (such as buying a knife) although I imagine their political rights wouldn't be very strong.
- otoburb 9y ago
  The parent's comment was taken directly from the OP article.
  - akira2501 9y ago
    Which is sourced from a New York Times _opinion_ piece without any documentation or second sourcing to back it up. I'm comfortable putting this in the "dubious" and/or "overblown anecdote" bin unless evidence shows otherwise.
    - el_benhameen 9y ago
      I was curious and found this article (https://www.fastcompany.com/40510238/in-xinjiang-china-some-knives-branded-with-owners-qr-codes https://www.fastcompany.com/40510238/in-xinjiang-china-some-...) which references this series of tweets (https://twitter.com/joshchin/status/943159015994880000/photo/1 https://twitter.com/joshchin/status/943159015994880000/photo...).
      - mysterypie 9y ago
        Thank you for finding that! Why didn't Engadget or the New York Times put that photo into the article? Engraving kitchen knives with your ID number sounded like hyperbole. Nothing proves it like a photo or video. Same with articles on security or privacy compromises -- you need an actual exploit before (most) people take it seriously. Direct link to the photo: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DRbGEKdVAAAtVis?format=jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DRbGEKdVAAAtVis?format=jpg

dictum 9y ago

I can already see the antennas being harmonized into scrap metal.

gruez 9y ago

>Uighers may be the first population to sign up for satellite subscriptions I doubt most people there are willing to pay a significant premium for uncensored internet. And this is assuming that the government doesn't ban/crack down on "illegal" satellite internet.

ssdd 9y ago

Satellite based broadband surely is something hard to restrict, and would be nice option for Uighers. But before we declare it as the solution to problem we need to think through any risks that it can pose. There aren't going to be many providers of satellite based broadband which means prices would be high due to lack of competition. There is also the issue of traffic snooping by US government, especially if US companies going to be sole player in this field.

siruncledrew 9y ago

750 USD/yr is about 4700 RMB/yr, so that's almost 400 RMB/mo. Just guessing, but that's probably out of reach for most people.

walrus01 9y ago

Former satellite telecom engineer here, have built high capacity two way C, Ku, X and Ka band earth stations. Two big problems with China: 1. Smuggle rooftop CPE into country? Manufacture domestically in grey market factories? 2. Very low cost for Chinese law enforcement, in Xinjiang, to buy and use portable spectrum analyzers to locate the Tx frequencies coming from a 30cm-50cm sized rooftop phase array antenna, aimed at the sky. To be a viable satellite broadband product it has to have a fairly strong Tx (in EIRP). No matter what band it is in from 10.5 up to 70GHz.

trevyn 9y ago
Question: Would it be similarly easy to locate such a transmitter if it were on an exceptionally busy ISM band? Also, what if upstream transmission rate was reduced?
- walrus01 9y ago
  1) The problem with using an ISM band for earth to space is precisely because it's exceptionally noisy. You want the best possible SNR for two way satellite, either direction. With a small satellite that orbits relatively close (LEO to low MEO, compared to geostationary), which will likely have a system architecture composed of numerous focused spot beams... If you were to design a series of spot beam on the satellite body with ISM band antennas aimed at major cities all you would achieve is gathering noise. 2) Not going to help much unless the upstream is so little that's basically useless. The same antenna is used for both Rx and Tx so you still need significant gain to overcome the path loss and have sufficient link budget for the space-to-earth traffic.
baybal2 9y ago
It will be as easy as locating an illegal VSAT station, which are countless in big cities there.
- walrus01 9y ago
  With current geostationary-based technology any significant VSAT is easy to spot: If you want to use higher-order modulations and coding, you need gain. Which means you need at least a 1.8 to 2.4m size antenna for a serious earth station. Possibly you're confusing a small VSAT with the Rx-only TVRO type dishes which are everywhere?