7 ms·

Wrong question, wrong perspective. Even the very best jobs where everything seems to be perfect still have significant setbacks because of the nature of a job:

Wrong question, wrong perspective. Even the very best jobs where everything seems to be perfect still have significant setbacks because of the nature of a job: - Employees suffer from one single dependency which can make their live miserable—their manager; just compare: Entrepreneurs should be independent and build as many options as possible (e.g. not just one client but many) - A job locks you in, means all side activities are forbidden or made complicated (because of IP, time, etc.) which again harms you because you are not able to build options outside the company - The urge to stay employable + get high compensations, means: seamless job transitions with no gaps, min 2 years at one job, steady growth re titles, headcount, responsibilities—all to show that you are a good hire and it doesn't matter if your current employer is a pile of s* and you just have 7 months and need stay some more months Getting jobs and being an employee has opportunities, it's easy for many in our industry to get 200K+ salaries but the price is high: reducing your options until you hit a depression.

expertentipp 9y ago
> seamless job transitions with no gaps, min 2 years at one job, steady growth re titles, headcount, responsibilities > Getting jobs and being an employee has opportunities, it's easy for many in our industry to get 200K+ salaries but the price is high: reducing your options until you hit a depression. This is not how it works in most of the EU, in particular DE/IT/AT/CH. There they value loyalty the most and they assume something is wrong with person changing an employer after couple of years. Frequent job hopping? Even worse. At some point one hits salary ceiling (70-80k EUR in some regions, 30-40k EUR in most of the EU) and that's it - changing job means the same salary or even lower with the risk the new place will be full of assholes and going through, humiliating at times for an experienced professional, vetting period as a new employee. Sometimes I wonder perhaps there is some non-competing agreement between companies? I have hard time understanding this deadlock situation.
- yhavr 9y ago
  Lack of economical education in the culture? Capitalism: Buy as cheap as possible, sell as expensive as possible. In the battle of this two intents, 'fair' market price emerges. If business tells you otherwise, if it frowns upon chasing your market value (including job hopping), is it a big fraud?
- foo101 9y ago
  You are responding to comments in this thread by saying, "This is not how it works", but the comments you are responding to are making multiple points. You never clarify what the "This" you are referring to is. I am having a hard time understanding what you are talking about.
- geezerjay 9y ago
  > Sometimes I wonder perhaps there is some non-competing agreement between companies? I doubt there are formal or explicit agreements, but informally or implicitly... Yes. One of my last employers bent himself backwards to avoid even contacting anyone who ever worked for certain competitors just to avoid the idea he was going after their staff.
- taneq 9y ago
  It sounds to me like the first part you describe(strong social pressure against job hopping) leads to drastically reduced worker mobility (swinging the balance of power in favour of the employers), and thence to the second part (relatively low salary ceiling).
- draw_down 9y ago
  All of what you just said is favorable to employers.
- jjevanoorschot 9y ago
  I am not sure how well this generalises over the entire EU. My experience in the Netherlands is that job hopping occurs frequently and is a great way to get on a higher salary. However, I do agree that there is a salary cap around 70-80k for software engineers. If you want to earn more than that you either need to go into management or move to a better paying region (US/Ireland/UK).
  - badpun 9y ago
    Or go contracting. I've been contacted about 500-600 EUR/day contracts in Amsterdam. Not sure how common they are, but the option is there.
    - jjevanoorschot 9y ago
      Interesting, I had not taken that into account. Maybe something I'd consider a few years down the line.
    - passiveincomelg 9y ago
      very common, also in Germany (https://www.gulp.de/knowledge-base/17/iv/mehr-ist-mehr-3-prognosen-zum-stundensatz-2018.html https://www.gulp.de/knowledge-base/17/iv/mehr-ist-mehr-3-pro...)
  - rerx 9y ago
    I can't assess the validity of these numbers, but, according to Glassdoor, senior software engineers at Google Munich make 105k to 120k base salary. https://www.glassdoor.de/Gehalt/Google-Senior-Software-Engineer-München-Gehälter-EJI_IE9079.0,6_KO7,31_IL.32,39_IC4990924.htm https://www.glassdoor.de/Gehalt/Google-Senior-Software-Engin...
    - jjevanoorschot 9y ago
      Oh for sure! But those numbers will be difficult to find in The Netherlands. Switzerland has the highest paying software engineering jobs in Europe AFAIK.
eafkuor 9y ago
> it's easy for many in our industry to get 200K+ salaries Where do I sign up?
- seanp2k2 9y ago
  Any non-startup tech company in the Bay Area should be paying at least this much if they're serious about hiring "top talent". That is the going rate these days for engineers / devops / sometimes designers / sometimes PMs.
  - eafkuor 9y ago
    Too bad I live in Poland :)
- opportune 9y ago
  Any big 4 if you have experience, most unicorns and established "prestigious" tech companies too. Keep in mind you'll most likely have to live in an area with a high CoL
Kurtz79 9y ago
"Getting jobs and being an employee has opportunities, it's easy for many in our industry to get 200K+ salaries" I wish we would stop repeating this, like it is some kind of universal truth. It might be easy for tech workers living in specific parts of the US, it is simply not true for the vast majority of their collegues in other parts of the world.
- adrianN 9y ago
  If the dollar continues its downward trend...
- opportune 9y ago
  I would slightly amend that to say that it's easy for tech workers willing to live in specific parts of the US. Nobody is tying you down to where you live currently except yourself, and probably more commonly, your own obligations and preferences regarding family/friends/lifestyle Edit: and also your work permissions status
  - albertgoeswoof 9y ago
    Again, this only applies to US workers. If you’re from another country it’s not straightforward to move to the US and even if you do you’re most likely tied to a employer who isn’t going to pay 200k
    - opportune 9y ago
      Yes, completely agree. I guess I just indicated my US bias but for (competent) developers within the US I'd say it's pretty valid
- skgoa 9y ago
  Also, it only applies to a tiny minority of "tech" sub-fields. A lot of "tech industry" employees are nowhere close to getting those salaries.
- scarface74 9y ago
  Translate the "200K+ salary" to "a salary that allows you to live an upper middle class lifestyle in many parts of the country". I've participated in a few threads where software developers who were living in a poorer country in the EU weren't willing to move to a country with more opportunities in the EU because they wanted to be close to their extended families. Some basically admitted that they could move.
some_account 9y ago
American culture seems to be incredibly bad for living a fulfilling life. Intelligent people on hacker news would do good to look at Sweden for a good balance between capitalism and socialism that actually works very well. Of course lately our politicians have allowed millions of immegrants to come in without having any sort of plan to give them jobs, so I expect Sweden to become pretty crap in the next 10 years. :)
- expertentipp 9y ago
  Would intelligent people from HN do good in looking in Sweden for the sun, female partner, or an apartment for rent (in regions where there are professional opportunities)?
  - depressedpanda 9y ago
    My anecdotal experience says yes. Except for the sun, but vitamin D and living close to an international airport are sufficient supplements for me.
  - piva00 9y ago
    Sun? No, although summer here is amazing and bright and beautiful you'll have to live 3 months with the darkness (even here in Stockholm, wake up in the dark, go to work with the sun rising and get out of work in pitch dark when there's no snow). Female partner? You can be lucky, sex is easy to come but relationships are much harder, there's a reason why "The Swedish Theory of Love" exists, people here are very autonomous, partnership is something very fluid and can crumble for things you'd probably linger more in other societies. Apartment for rent... Well... I can definitely say this is not easy nor cheap.
- thesimon 9y ago
  Do you think the salary level reflects the high cost of living? 45k SEK pre-tax seems like a common figure, but appartments e.g. in Stockholm are around 12k SEK.
  - expertentipp 9y ago
mseebach 9y ago
> Wrong question, wrong perspective. Even the very best jobs where everything seems to be perfect still have significant setbacks because of the nature of a job This is a strawman. The article isn't about how jobs are perfect and magical, it's about how to deal with the fact that jobs aren't those things, and how to maximise your advantage from the job you do take. The thing is, jobs exist and are part of reality for practically everybody. Thinking about how to act to get the most out of them is perfectly reasonable and actionable for most people. Incidentally, the advise in the article substantially mitigates the impact of the "nature of a job" problems as you list them, so even accepting your premise, this is a worthwhile article.
codingdave 9y ago
> all side activities are forbidden or made complicated I know many places try to make this true, but not all do. If that is an issue that you consider to be a deal-breaker, then by all means, break the deal if they ask you to sign contracts that would stifle you. > get high compensations This isn't a priority for everyone. "high enough" is... enough. There certainly is a minimum that everyone needs. But lowering the expectations of your lifestyle means you can lower your compensation needs, and be picky about everything else. If the personal cost of gaining a 200K salary is too much... then it isn't worth the 200K you are receiving. You need to approach your salary as a business transaction -- you are giving up a chunk of your life and freedom in exchange for money. Be sure that exchange is a good match for you.
carlmr 9y ago
What's the best way to transition from employee to entrepreneur?

expertentipp 9y ago

> seamless job transitions with no gaps, min 2 years at one job, steady growth re titles, headcount, responsibilities > Getting jobs and being an employee has opportunities, it's easy for many in our industry to get 200K+ salaries but the price is high: reducing your options until you hit a depression. This is not how it works in most of the EU, in particular DE/IT/AT/CH. There they value loyalty the most and they assume something is wrong with person changing an employer after couple of years. Frequent job hopping? Even worse. At some point one hits salary ceiling (70-80k EUR in some regions, 30-40k EUR in most of the EU) and that's it - changing job means the same salary or even lower with the risk the new place will be full of assholes and going through, humiliating at times for an experienced professional, vetting period as a new employee. Sometimes I wonder perhaps there is some non-competing agreement between companies? I have hard time understanding this deadlock situation.

yhavr 9y ago
Lack of economical education in the culture? Capitalism: Buy as cheap as possible, sell as expensive as possible. In the battle of this two intents, 'fair' market price emerges. If business tells you otherwise, if it frowns upon chasing your market value (including job hopping), is it a big fraud?
foo101 9y ago
You are responding to comments in this thread by saying, "This is not how it works", but the comments you are responding to are making multiple points. You never clarify what the "This" you are referring to is. I am having a hard time understanding what you are talking about.
geezerjay 9y ago
> Sometimes I wonder perhaps there is some non-competing agreement between companies? I doubt there are formal or explicit agreements, but informally or implicitly... Yes. One of my last employers bent himself backwards to avoid even contacting anyone who ever worked for certain competitors just to avoid the idea he was going after their staff.
taneq 9y ago
It sounds to me like the first part you describe(strong social pressure against job hopping) leads to drastically reduced worker mobility (swinging the balance of power in favour of the employers), and thence to the second part (relatively low salary ceiling).
draw_down 9y ago
All of what you just said is favorable to employers.
jjevanoorschot 9y ago
I am not sure how well this generalises over the entire EU. My experience in the Netherlands is that job hopping occurs frequently and is a great way to get on a higher salary. However, I do agree that there is a salary cap around 70-80k for software engineers. If you want to earn more than that you either need to go into management or move to a better paying region (US/Ireland/UK).
- badpun 9y ago
  Or go contracting. I've been contacted about 500-600 EUR/day contracts in Amsterdam. Not sure how common they are, but the option is there.
  - jjevanoorschot 9y ago
    Interesting, I had not taken that into account. Maybe something I'd consider a few years down the line.
  - passiveincomelg 9y ago
    very common, also in Germany (https://www.gulp.de/knowledge-base/17/iv/mehr-ist-mehr-3-prognosen-zum-stundensatz-2018.html https://www.gulp.de/knowledge-base/17/iv/mehr-ist-mehr-3-pro...)
- rerx 9y ago
  I can't assess the validity of these numbers, but, according to Glassdoor, senior software engineers at Google Munich make 105k to 120k base salary. https://www.glassdoor.de/Gehalt/Google-Senior-Software-Engineer-München-Gehälter-EJI_IE9079.0,6_KO7,31_IL.32,39_IC4990924.htm https://www.glassdoor.de/Gehalt/Google-Senior-Software-Engin...
  - jjevanoorschot 9y ago
    Oh for sure! But those numbers will be difficult to find in The Netherlands. Switzerland has the highest paying software engineering jobs in Europe AFAIK.

eafkuor 9y ago

> it's easy for many in our industry to get 200K+ salaries Where do I sign up?

seanp2k2 9y ago
Any non-startup tech company in the Bay Area should be paying at least this much if they're serious about hiring "top talent". That is the going rate these days for engineers / devops / sometimes designers / sometimes PMs.
- eafkuor 9y ago
  Too bad I live in Poland :)
opportune 9y ago
Any big 4 if you have experience, most unicorns and established "prestigious" tech companies too. Keep in mind you'll most likely have to live in an area with a high CoL

Kurtz79 9y ago

"Getting jobs and being an employee has opportunities, it's easy for many in our industry to get 200K+ salaries" I wish we would stop repeating this, like it is some kind of universal truth. It might be easy for tech workers living in specific parts of the US, it is simply not true for the vast majority of their collegues in other parts of the world.

adrianN 9y ago
If the dollar continues its downward trend...
opportune 9y ago
I would slightly amend that to say that it's easy for tech workers willing to live in specific parts of the US. Nobody is tying you down to where you live currently except yourself, and probably more commonly, your own obligations and preferences regarding family/friends/lifestyle Edit: and also your work permissions status
- albertgoeswoof 9y ago
  Again, this only applies to US workers. If you’re from another country it’s not straightforward to move to the US and even if you do you’re most likely tied to a employer who isn’t going to pay 200k
  - opportune 9y ago
    Yes, completely agree. I guess I just indicated my US bias but for (competent) developers within the US I'd say it's pretty valid
skgoa 9y ago
Also, it only applies to a tiny minority of "tech" sub-fields. A lot of "tech industry" employees are nowhere close to getting those salaries.
scarface74 9y ago
Translate the "200K+ salary" to "a salary that allows you to live an upper middle class lifestyle in many parts of the country". I've participated in a few threads where software developers who were living in a poorer country in the EU weren't willing to move to a country with more opportunities in the EU because they wanted to be close to their extended families. Some basically admitted that they could move.

some_account 9y ago

American culture seems to be incredibly bad for living a fulfilling life. Intelligent people on hacker news would do good to look at Sweden for a good balance between capitalism and socialism that actually works very well. Of course lately our politicians have allowed millions of immegrants to come in without having any sort of plan to give them jobs, so I expect Sweden to become pretty crap in the next 10 years. :)

expertentipp 9y ago
Would intelligent people from HN do good in looking in Sweden for the sun, female partner, or an apartment for rent (in regions where there are professional opportunities)?
- depressedpanda 9y ago
  My anecdotal experience says yes. Except for the sun, but vitamin D and living close to an international airport are sufficient supplements for me.
- piva00 9y ago
  Sun? No, although summer here is amazing and bright and beautiful you'll have to live 3 months with the darkness (even here in Stockholm, wake up in the dark, go to work with the sun rising and get out of work in pitch dark when there's no snow). Female partner? You can be lucky, sex is easy to come but relationships are much harder, there's a reason why "The Swedish Theory of Love" exists, people here are very autonomous, partnership is something very fluid and can crumble for things you'd probably linger more in other societies. Apartment for rent... Well... I can definitely say this is not easy nor cheap.
thesimon 9y ago
Do you think the salary level reflects the high cost of living? 45k SEK pre-tax seems like a common figure, but appartments e.g. in Stockholm are around 12k SEK.
- expertentipp 9y ago

mseebach 9y ago

> Wrong question, wrong perspective. Even the very best jobs where everything seems to be perfect still have significant setbacks because of the nature of a job This is a strawman. The article isn't about how jobs are perfect and magical, it's about how to deal with the fact that jobs aren't those things, and how to maximise your advantage from the job you do take. The thing is, jobs exist and are part of reality for practically everybody. Thinking about how to act to get the most out of them is perfectly reasonable and actionable for most people. Incidentally, the advise in the article substantially mitigates the impact of the "nature of a job" problems as you list them, so even accepting your premise, this is a worthwhile article.

codingdave 9y ago

> all side activities are forbidden or made complicated I know many places try to make this true, but not all do. If that is an issue that you consider to be a deal-breaker, then by all means, break the deal if they ask you to sign contracts that would stifle you. > get high compensations This isn't a priority for everyone. "high enough" is... enough. There certainly is a minimum that everyone needs. But lowering the expectations of your lifestyle means you can lower your compensation needs, and be picky about everything else. If the personal cost of gaining a 200K salary is too much... then it isn't worth the 200K you are receiving. You need to approach your salary as a business transaction -- you are giving up a chunk of your life and freedom in exchange for money. Be sure that exchange is a good match for you.

carlmr 9y ago

What's the best way to transition from employee to entrepreneur?