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Austin, Denver, Detroit: Good Places to Be a Software Engineer Looking for a Job

113 points by teklaperry 9y ago

padobson 9y ago
Detroit engineer here. There may be a lot of openings around here as Detroit industry continues to modernize and the startup scene matures, but salaries are still lagging. Some of the large companies (autos, insurance, etc) will occasionally offer higher-paying gigs, but competition is fierce and interviewing (like everywhere) is a crap shoot. I'm currently contracting remotely with a company in the Los Angeles area, and I don't expect I'll be leaving remote work anytime soon. I expect my clients will be in LA, SF, and NY for the rest of my career.
- bittermang 9y ago
  Last time I was in Detroit the roads were the worst I'd ever seen. You couldn't even call them pot holes, they were just scars in the earth. For a place nicknamed The Motor City, it was a sad state of affairs. And that's the crux of it. It's not just the money, in fact it's never the money for me. It's a total quality of life scenario. Being across a bridge from Windsor Canada is cool, the Detroit museum is a great place, and the area has a great lineage for quality pizza. But Detroit itself is like a hostile environment to me, where I can't even travel around without risking breaking my vehicle literally in half. I'd have to me making great money there, just to pay upkeep on vehicle maintenance.
  - commandlinefan 9y ago
    I grew up there. As bad as it might have been when you were there, you should try going in the wintertime. Orders of magnitude worse. You couldn't pay me enough to go back there.
    - ghaff 9y ago
      But, assuming you just hate winter/snow, you've just described the entire northern tier of the US that's not right on the West Coast. Which is of course your prerogative. I'm just not terribly sympathetic to arguments that life isn't livable outside of the Bay Area because of the weather.
      - tachyoff 9y ago
        I somewhat hate winter, but I like seasons; they give a nice tempo to life. Personally, I’d rather have snow than earthquakes, wildfires, mudslides, tornadoes, and hurricanes, which the rest of the country gets some combination of. Michigan, though? Maybe there’s a tornado in the hinterlands once in a while, but otherwise it’s just the occasional blizzard, and that’s hardly life-threatening for most. Plus, we’re surrounded by fresh water.
        da_chicken 9y ago
        If you stay away from the west side of the state, you'll even avoid most lake effect snow.
      - microcolonel 9y ago
        > But, assuming you just hate winter/snow, you've just described the entire northern tier of the US that's not right on the West Coast. Which is of course your prerogative. I'm just not terribly sympathetic to arguments that life isn't livable outside of the Bay Area because of the weather. I think what he was getting at was that a northern winter makes the infrastructure problems considerably worse. Potholes big enough to bathe a toddler can be hidden by snow, and snowplows don't operate regularly and efficiently on roads where they are at serious risk of destroying an axle, wheel, or tire on any given day; and even if they could dodge the potholes, they couldn't clear the snow where it counts! If our road infrastructure here in Toronto, or my previous city, Calgary, were any more poorly maintained, winter could make life considerably harder for those who can't afford to travel by foot. I recently had a ride on what IIRC our ministry of transport has deemed the worst maintained road in the country, and it's better than 50% of the roads near Pittsburgh, and in my (old, 2011-2012-ish) experience, better than 80% of the roads in Detroit. I can not imagine snow on these roads making life any easier.
  - tachyoff 9y ago
    To be fair, and I don’t know when you were last here, Detroit is somewhat slowly improving. Some of the roads are still terrible, but that’s Michigan in general (I have some friends in the suburbs, and when I visit them, I specifically avoid certain problematic roads that have left me asking if I permanently damaged my car). The real bugbear is insurance, which is a state policy issue (poor, white areas are starting to be hit by it too). My car insurance in the city is higher than my car payment (by about $100). Yes, it’s insane. I have good credit and I’m a good driver, but no-fault insurance and unlimited medical coverage makes it superbly expensive to insure Michiganders. If anything would make me move back to the suburbs, it’s actually the car insurance. Everything else I don’t really mind. Otherwise, you have to take Detroit for all it is, both its faults and its treasures. Yes, street flooding is a problem and the schools are still not great, but property is cheap and some neighborhoods are recovering. You can get a mansion for $500k to $800k (in SF you would get a shoe box). And if you want the cheapest, most delicious donuts you’ve ever had, swing by Dutch Girl on Woodward and Seven Mile. They’re open 24/7. It’s not for everyone, but it’s unique, and has 300 years of fascinating history. It’s not the war zone you see on the news either. Don’t write off Detroit just yet. :)
    - eckza 9y ago
      Definitely lost a fucking tire to a pothole yesterday morning at Fischer and Springwells at 30mph. I drive that road every day. Just happened to be in the wrong lane. (We are getting there... but we have a long way to go.)
  - tropo 9y ago
    Suppose that The Motor City wanted to help the local car industry. Would they build roads that favor keeping a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry for 20 years, or would they build roads that require yearly purchase of a huge SUV or a full-size AWD pickup truck?
    - jdhn 9y ago
      Trust me, when it comes to road infrastructure, there is no conspiracy to help the Big 3. The amount of broken down vehicles that I see on the sides of the roads due to tire issues spans domestic & foreign brands. If there's a conspiracy, it's a conspiracy to benefit body shops and tire/rim manufacturers.
      - kdot 9y ago
        Michigan is have a somewhat state of emergency due to the poor road conditions, pot holes everywhere.
    - weirdkid 9y ago
      Or, it's the sandy base you get when geographically surrounded by water. Or, it's the laws that removed weight limits for the trucking industry. Or, it's the lack of funds in poor areas. Or, it's the extreme changes in temperature combined with high water tables and wet weather. Or, it's a combination of all the above.
      - smashingfiasco 9y ago
        It's a combination. Plus it seems like the region has replaced manufacturing with never-ending construction. I don't live in Detroit, I'm nearby in Toledo.
  - CyberDildonics 9y ago
    Detroit is actually a pretty cool place in a lot of ways but the streets as you mentioned are absolutely terrible. On top of how torn up they are, there is practically no light on the street. A few dim street lights scatter much too far apart gives you major arteries where you can barely see anything. Then there is the fact that the actual design of the streets is terrible, with lots of odd mechanics you don't see anywhere else, one way streets, and the old 'michigan left' (turn right, then find a place to turn around.
  - danans 9y ago
    > and the area has a great lineage for quality pizza What lineage are you referring to? Domino's and Little Caesars? (Both are headquartered in the area). They are perfectly edible, but I've never heard those described as representing a "quality pizza" lineage.
    - burkemw3 9y ago
      There is also [Detroit-style pizza][]. Buddy's is great. I've enjoyed Emmy Squared in NYC, and I'm looking to make one following the [Serious Eats guide][] sometime this year. [Detroit-style pizza]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit-style_pizza https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit-style_pizza [Serious Eats guide]: http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2017/02/detroit-style-pizza-recipe.html http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2017/02/detroit-style-piz...
    - segmondy 9y ago
      Detroit has great foods. For great places to eat, trust that you have never heard of them. Not nationwide chains. There are tons of random hole in the wall joint with amazing food. You just have to know them usually through luck or referral because you could walk past them many times and not know there's amazing food in there.
      - danans 9y ago
        I'm from the area, so I definitely know that there is great food there, from little local delis to the best middle eastern food in the US. I'm just not aware of a great local pizza tradition. And for me personally, Buddy's Detroit-style pizza (I grew up eating it) doesn't meet that standard.
- jdhn 9y ago
  Same goes for UX designers. Very few direct hire positions, and almost everything is a 6 to 12 month "contract to hire" that magically never turns into an actual position. Plus, I'd say that for every job that a company advertises, there's at least 5 or 6 recruiters who will post ads for that same exact job. Anecdotal story: I interviewed at a well known ad company here in the Metro Detroit area, and the recruiter let it slip that he had sent 16 people their way before me. While I'm sure that this guy was just throwing warm bodies at the position in hopes of earning a commission, it's kind of unbelievable that competition is that fierce here.
  - oceanghost 9y ago
    The balls on some of the C2H people are amazing. I had been at a position for 10 years-- some CEO calls me and says my skillset would be PERFECT for his company, would I be interested in talking. We get into details, its C2H, I decline. He was absolutely incensed, he says, "well, its just to make sure you're a good culture fit!" To which I reply, "I'm not going to leave a stable job for what is essentially contract work." He was beyond pissed, I guess he was acclimated to dealing with idiots.
    - ryandrake 9y ago
      You likely dodged a bullet there. A CEO getting “beyond pissed” over what is essentially a business deal is weird. Does he also get beyond pissed when he loses a customer or when a deadline slips? Super red flag when a company rep (let alone the CEO) loses their cool during something as pedestrian as hiring!
      - oceanghost 9y ago
        Oh I know I did. If I'm PERFECT for the role-- why contract again? I'm not going to pull my trigger if you're not going to pull yours. These amateur [psycho|soicio]paths have no balls. A real psycho would have hired me then fired me. Basically, he is confident enough to lie to someone to hire them, but not confident enough to simply fire them when needed.
    - 9y ago
- curiouscat321 9y ago
  The salaries, sadly, are really lagging. I just graduated from UMich and I can name a small handful of people who stayed in the state. The vast majority of them moved out west. Even when you account for the lower COL, the salaries are just too low in the Detroit area. It’s getting better, but the area needs more real tech employers who value software engineers. The automotive companies still seem to treat them as cost centers.
_raaq 9y ago
EX Denver developer here. Colorado Native. Now an Austin Dev (I'm a senior / lead android dev) I can safely say that the job market in Denver is terrible. Yes you can find work, but the company culture are terrible. I found myself with brogrammers that had 0 engineering style hobbies or being asked to work 60 hours every week. There are a few gems.. But the Jobs you want, aren't hiring mobile devs because their offices are start up size. IE Uber, google, github. Those are all Boulder offices anyways, not Denver. In Denver you will get mostly Banks, and dinos like Comast / Aol. Sure some will get offers at Pivotal or Workday. But after that you aren't going to like what you can get. Seriously the drug use is pretty Rampant in Denver too. Not a turn off to all, but given the places I did work, you wouldn't expect it. Texas is so much better. The job I have is so much better, My coworkers are actually nerdy. Honestly. Sorry I just have to laugh at the idea that desert is a great place to look for work. Here in Austin we can't even find android devs to apply. Denver I interviewed maybe 20 and found most to be just okay.
- electricslpnsld 9y ago
  What type of position were you looking for? I have friends who do backend dev in Denver (lots of Go and Rails folks), and recruiters are beating down the doors to hire them. I haven't heard of anyone going for more than a few weeks before landing a solid gig in the area.
  - starwind0 9y ago
    Android devs. We can find iOS easily. No one wants to do Android. Seems weird given that android is OS. But I live in Austin now, not Denver. Denver is terrible.
    - matwood 9y ago
      > Android devs. We can find iOS easily. No one wants to do Android. Seems weird given that android is OS. Having done both, Android development is a pain and just not fun. The simulator/emulator situation has improved a lot which helps, but it used to be a terrible development experience.
kenhwang 9y ago
Can confirm that Los Angeles has wonderful supply of engineers and low demand for them. I would rather fight it out here and try my luck than move to Austin/Denver/Detroit though.
- starwind0 9y ago
  I lived in San Diego. That was worse than Denver by a lot. I think I got 1 interview at, oh Jitterbug? Went back to Denver, now I am in Austin.
  - Cyph0n 9y ago
    SD is paradise for hardware devs, though!
jupiter90000 9y ago
Does the Dallas story (low demand for devs, high availability of devs) line up with the experience of those here familiar with the market? Based on just looking at job postings, it didn't seem like there was a lack of demand for devs in that area, but I know that postings don't necessarily equate to high demand. Also if that's true, do alot of the Dallas devs in need of work go to Austin? Or is that not done for some reason?
- arenaninja 9y ago
  Interested in hearing the answer to this since I've had several companies from Dallas reaching out to me (I'm in Houston). I'm considering the relo but I'd prefer to not be moving again in a few years
- vonmoltke 9y ago
  > Does the Dallas story (low demand for devs, high availability of devs) line up with the experience of those here familiar with the market? Based on just looking at job postings, it didn't seem like there was a lack of demand for devs in that area, but I know that postings don't necessarily equate to high demand. That was my experience when I ejected 18 months ago. Yes, there are a lot of postings. There are also a lot of shitty or picky companies. > Also if that's true, do alot of the Dallas devs in need of work go to Austin? Or is that not done for some reason? Not sure. I tried, but I could hardly get interviews down there, either.
- pm90 9y ago
  Speaking purely from anecdotal evidence: Dallas certainly does have a lot of good jobs, but its not a liberal enclave like Austin. In some ways its more representative of Texas than Austin, which is definitely more like SF (except maybe the rents, which are definitely far more reasonable). But Dallas has its own charms for sure. You can get really huge houses close to work for pretty cheap, the school systems are pretty great. The big Software firms (Google, Apple, Facebook etc.) are all moving to Austin though.
  - Cshelton 9y ago
    Dallas as a whole is for sure not a liberal enclave like Austin, however, the downtown/uptown/deep ellum bubbles of Dallas most certainly are. If you are coming from SF/CA, Colorado, Austin even, and you are in that part of Dallas, you will feel at home. The "Texas" stereotypes you have for sure heard about are pretty absent here. For affordable housing, you can definitely get it, but if you want something close to downtown/uptown, it's a good step up. Also, the housing market here is ridiculous, one of the fastest growing markets in the nation. You will be paying above ask in a bidding war for anything you find. And you better be ready to put your money down, no contingency, sometimes before you get to even walk in the front door to see the house. It's that insane.
enraged_camel 9y ago
I have lived in Austin for 3 years now and I work in tech. It's a fantastic city. Great weather throughout the year (very hot though - not everyone's cup of tea!), lots of gorgeous outdoor environments within very close proximity to the city center, and plenty of nice people, many of whom are newly-arrived transplants and are optimistic about life and looking to make new friends. I'm the organizer of a bouldering meetup[1]. We started back in September but already have 250+ members. I'd say more than a third of them work in tech so it's great for networking too. :) [1]https://www.meetup.com/Bouldering-in-Austin https://www.meetup.com/Bouldering-in-Austin
- jdhn 9y ago
  As someone who wants to move to Austin and has dabbled in bouldering but enjoyed it, thanks for the link!
- pm90 9y ago
  Hey, didn't know you were in Austin! Definitely will check out the meetup. I'm an occasional climber. Besides what you already mentioned: the food is one major factor that I like Austin. From BBQ (Franklin, Salt Lick etc.) to Tacos (Torchy's, Taco Deli) to ethnic Indian, Korean etc. this city has it all and new restaurants are opening all the time. If you like beer and breweries, Austin has many of them too. Oscar Blues, ABGB, 512, Adelberts, Jester King etc. are just a few that come to mind. There are lot of brewpubs as well and new ones are opening all the times. If you're young and into the nightlife scene, Austin has a lively scene and you can literally go out any night of the week and find something interesting. From live music to famous bands, to music festivals, there's ALWAYS something to do, which is really fucking amazing. Generally I don't like to say too many nice things since I like to keep this amazing city all to myself. But maybe HN crowd is ok :).
- SeanBoocock 9y ago
  Austin Bouldering Project is great. It is an impressive facility with a really engaged community (almost too much of a good thing, weekends are busy). Highly recommend for any Austinites who may be curious about climbing.
pxlpshr 9y ago
For anyone looking for engineering positions in Austin, we are hiring at athenahealth ($ATHN). Senior-level positions in C#/.NET (+Azure), JAVA (+AWS), ReactJS/Native, iOS/Android. Our Austin office is where a lot of R&D happens and there is a huge push to re-platform into micro services. athenahealth also owns Epocrates, a very popular mobile app used by more than 600K providers. That product team is based here, too. Great place to work, beautiful office, downtown location with parking included, and a very mission-driven culture. Find me on LinkedIn or my Gmail in my HN profile. Happy to connect you with the hiring managers.
- justherefortart 9y ago
  Do you provide your employees with better insurance options? https://www.consumeraffairs.com/insurance/aetna_health.html https://www.consumeraffairs.com/insurance/aetna_health.html Dirtbag company.
  - sbr464 9y ago
    Not sure aetna and athena health are the same thing.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
- yanslookup 9y ago
  This is pretty ballsy considering the layoffs and push to offshore development going on right now at Athena... stock price is doing good though...
throwaway_woxx7 9y ago
I've lived in Austin for about 5 years. Grad school, not work. My programmer friends seem to have no problem getting jobs, and I have no shortage of male friends, but the gender ratio of singles is pretty heavily skewed towards men for introverted nerds. I'm a single male who doesn't have a lot of free time, so I gave up on dating in Austin. The city doesn't seem to attract many people I'd like to date. Particularly compared against where I lived previously. Many of the people under 35 in Austin seem to have been attracted to the city for the music festivals and relative lack of cold weather. I'm an introvert who finds the summer heat here worse than the cold on the east coast. As I said, Austinites are typically not my kind of people. Something to keep in mind if you believe you might be similar to me. Austin is probably not worse than SF, but I don't intend to live there after I graduate either.
- pm90 9y ago
  I haven't found that experience at all. In fact one of the reasons I refuse to move to Man Jose or SF is because I've heard of the famously skewed sex ratio. There is a lot more diversity in Austin, and as a single guy in his late 20's I've had a very healthy dating experience.
  - justherefortart 9y ago
    SF is a sausage fest without a doubt. Fortunately, there's a lot of sausage on sausage action (if that's your thing :-) I lived in the bay area for ~4 years, lots of dudes, immigrants, and really wealthy people (in addition to a lot of the working poor). Interesting place just not my cup of tea. Did make Buena Vista inspired Irish Coffees last night though.
  - throwaway_woxx7 9y ago
    I don't doubt SF, etc., is worse. My experience suggests Austin is a step down from where I lived previously. Perhaps you're more attractive or patient than I am. I also just realized that I forgot to mention that I'm a teetotaler, which seem to be a major turnoff to people here. If you don't mind me asking, how do you meet single women here?
- 9y ago
souprock 9y ago
Two typical problems with this study: 1. There is a failure to clearly specify what is meant by a given city. In this case, linkedin is at least kind enough to use the word "region". For "SF Bay Area", would that count Davis or Santa Cruz? For "Boston", would that count Chelmsford or Braintree? For "Washington D.C.", would that count Arlington or Annapolis Junction or Ballston or Dulles? 2. Anything below a certain size is not considered. If the big city has 54321 people fighting over 12345 jobs, while the small city has 123 people considering 321 jobs, going for the big city might not be so wise. This is before even adjusting for quality-of-life problems in cities.
purplezooey 9y ago
I don't know why Bay Area companies don't open more in the East Bay. Many of their employees live there. Less commute. It's baffling why companies are so focused on the misery that is Mountain View or Palo Alto.
- reducesuffering 9y ago
  It is pretty astonishing how little tech companies there are in Hayward, Union City, Fremont, and Milpitas. Tens of thousands of available tech workers commuting to the Valley. Companies opening up there could drastically reduce the extremely constrained traffic, then residents all around the bay would allow for more housing. What's the downside?
  - woolvalley 9y ago
    Offices tend to be close to where the CEO lives. Where do CEO and founder types tend to live? West bay. Also an informal poll of coworkers find most of them live in SF or the south bay today.
  - fbdjskajxb 9y ago
    There are lots of devs who live in the East Bay (I used to live there myself), but most don’t. The more successful devs (who you are looking to poach) generally live on the other side, and they live there because they don’t want to drive across the bay twice a day. It’s more of a Moneyball move - go for the underappreciated talent you can get cheap. There are companies doing that, but it’s not for everyone. If you get specific with the location, you realize Oakland and Pleasanton, Walnut Creek and Hayward are pretty far apart, so you don’t even get great access to the whole East Bay. You might as well move to Austin, Denver, or Detroit at that point and pay the same price for a better location. Although you might see major companies open offices if there is a critical mass eg. maybe it would make sense for Google or Facebook to open a satellite office in Newark if enough employees are commuting across the Dumbarton. Uber was going to make a big office in Oakland, but apparently canceled those plans.
tombachar 9y ago
Just moved my startup(www.getpei.co) from Los Angeles to Austin for an accelerator and can attest that software is sprawling! There are tons of great meetups supported by a ton of great innovative companies and with amazing events like SXSW (which will be our first) they environment is growing for engineers. The reason I see this happening is because I believe with the roots of live music in Austin, there is a lot of creativity growing around here. When you mix it with effective development and adventurous culture, there is a great mixture of support systems to really build a software-based community. Weirdly enough, my company is actually looking for a CMO now in the area, and we are finding it difficult to fill the position at an early stage company. So shameless plug, if you are in the area ( which I am finding a lot of Austin is HN), please feel free to reach out!
kdazzle 9y ago
Detroit might be okay if you like long commutes, no transit, and (typically) conservative workplaces. Pay seems like its increasing a bit, if stack overflow jobs is any indicator. It would be an awesome place for a startup with all the cheap property and rent. People here are nicer than anywhere else I’ve ever lived I miss biking and walking to work. And while thats possible here, it’s not easy to find. But Detroit’s not an easy city and that’s one of its charms. Heh, though people generally don’t talk about Detroit’s hardships in terms of biking to your tech job.
- vin7 9y ago
  It's weird. The brain drain is constant though, and you have to put up with being the smartest guy in the room and the people you admire always leaving for, like, Phoenix or Pittsburgh. You can buy a mansion for like $50k and then who is going to attend your dinner parties? Your hot wife is a junkie instead of a doctor or pilot. Cleveland rocks.
vin7 9y ago
We're looking for things to make us go.

113 points by teklaperry 9y ago

Detroit engineer here. There may be a lot of openings around here as Detroit industry continues to modernize and the startup scene matures, but salaries are still lagging. Some of the large companies (autos, insurance, etc) will occasionally offer higher-paying gigs, but competition is fierce and interviewing (like everywhere) is a crap shoot. I'm currently contracting remotely with a company in the Los Angeles area, and I don't expect I'll be leaving remote work anytime soon. I expect my clients will be in LA, SF, and NY for the rest of my career.

bittermang 9y ago
Last time I was in Detroit the roads were the worst I'd ever seen. You couldn't even call them pot holes, they were just scars in the earth. For a place nicknamed The Motor City, it was a sad state of affairs. And that's the crux of it. It's not just the money, in fact it's never the money for me. It's a total quality of life scenario. Being across a bridge from Windsor Canada is cool, the Detroit museum is a great place, and the area has a great lineage for quality pizza. But Detroit itself is like a hostile environment to me, where I can't even travel around without risking breaking my vehicle literally in half. I'd have to me making great money there, just to pay upkeep on vehicle maintenance.
- commandlinefan 9y ago
  I grew up there. As bad as it might have been when you were there, you should try going in the wintertime. Orders of magnitude worse. You couldn't pay me enough to go back there.
  - ghaff 9y ago
    But, assuming you just hate winter/snow, you've just described the entire northern tier of the US that's not right on the West Coast. Which is of course your prerogative. I'm just not terribly sympathetic to arguments that life isn't livable outside of the Bay Area because of the weather.
    - tachyoff 9y ago
      I somewhat hate winter, but I like seasons; they give a nice tempo to life. Personally, I’d rather have snow than earthquakes, wildfires, mudslides, tornadoes, and hurricanes, which the rest of the country gets some combination of. Michigan, though? Maybe there’s a tornado in the hinterlands once in a while, but otherwise it’s just the occasional blizzard, and that’s hardly life-threatening for most. Plus, we’re surrounded by fresh water.
      - da_chicken 9y ago
        If you stay away from the west side of the state, you'll even avoid most lake effect snow.
    - microcolonel 9y ago
      > But, assuming you just hate winter/snow, you've just described the entire northern tier of the US that's not right on the West Coast. Which is of course your prerogative. I'm just not terribly sympathetic to arguments that life isn't livable outside of the Bay Area because of the weather. I think what he was getting at was that a northern winter makes the infrastructure problems considerably worse. Potholes big enough to bathe a toddler can be hidden by snow, and snowplows don't operate regularly and efficiently on roads where they are at serious risk of destroying an axle, wheel, or tire on any given day; and even if they could dodge the potholes, they couldn't clear the snow where it counts! If our road infrastructure here in Toronto, or my previous city, Calgary, were any more poorly maintained, winter could make life considerably harder for those who can't afford to travel by foot. I recently had a ride on what IIRC our ministry of transport has deemed the worst maintained road in the country, and it's better than 50% of the roads near Pittsburgh, and in my (old, 2011-2012-ish) experience, better than 80% of the roads in Detroit. I can not imagine snow on these roads making life any easier.
- tachyoff 9y ago
  To be fair, and I don’t know when you were last here, Detroit is somewhat slowly improving. Some of the roads are still terrible, but that’s Michigan in general (I have some friends in the suburbs, and when I visit them, I specifically avoid certain problematic roads that have left me asking if I permanently damaged my car). The real bugbear is insurance, which is a state policy issue (poor, white areas are starting to be hit by it too). My car insurance in the city is higher than my car payment (by about $100). Yes, it’s insane. I have good credit and I’m a good driver, but no-fault insurance and unlimited medical coverage makes it superbly expensive to insure Michiganders. If anything would make me move back to the suburbs, it’s actually the car insurance. Everything else I don’t really mind. Otherwise, you have to take Detroit for all it is, both its faults and its treasures. Yes, street flooding is a problem and the schools are still not great, but property is cheap and some neighborhoods are recovering. You can get a mansion for $500k to $800k (in SF you would get a shoe box). And if you want the cheapest, most delicious donuts you’ve ever had, swing by Dutch Girl on Woodward and Seven Mile. They’re open 24/7. It’s not for everyone, but it’s unique, and has 300 years of fascinating history. It’s not the war zone you see on the news either. Don’t write off Detroit just yet. :)
  - eckza 9y ago
    Definitely lost a fucking tire to a pothole yesterday morning at Fischer and Springwells at 30mph. I drive that road every day. Just happened to be in the wrong lane. (We are getting there... but we have a long way to go.)
- tropo 9y ago
  Suppose that The Motor City wanted to help the local car industry. Would they build roads that favor keeping a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry for 20 years, or would they build roads that require yearly purchase of a huge SUV or a full-size AWD pickup truck?
  - jdhn 9y ago
    Trust me, when it comes to road infrastructure, there is no conspiracy to help the Big 3. The amount of broken down vehicles that I see on the sides of the roads due to tire issues spans domestic & foreign brands. If there's a conspiracy, it's a conspiracy to benefit body shops and tire/rim manufacturers.
    - kdot 9y ago
      Michigan is have a somewhat state of emergency due to the poor road conditions, pot holes everywhere.
  - weirdkid 9y ago
    Or, it's the sandy base you get when geographically surrounded by water. Or, it's the laws that removed weight limits for the trucking industry. Or, it's the lack of funds in poor areas. Or, it's the extreme changes in temperature combined with high water tables and wet weather. Or, it's a combination of all the above.
    - smashingfiasco 9y ago
      It's a combination. Plus it seems like the region has replaced manufacturing with never-ending construction. I don't live in Detroit, I'm nearby in Toledo.
- CyberDildonics 9y ago
  Detroit is actually a pretty cool place in a lot of ways but the streets as you mentioned are absolutely terrible. On top of how torn up they are, there is practically no light on the street. A few dim street lights scatter much too far apart gives you major arteries where you can barely see anything. Then there is the fact that the actual design of the streets is terrible, with lots of odd mechanics you don't see anywhere else, one way streets, and the old 'michigan left' (turn right, then find a place to turn around.
- danans 9y ago
  > and the area has a great lineage for quality pizza What lineage are you referring to? Domino's and Little Caesars? (Both are headquartered in the area). They are perfectly edible, but I've never heard those described as representing a "quality pizza" lineage.
  - burkemw3 9y ago
    There is also [Detroit-style pizza][]. Buddy's is great. I've enjoyed Emmy Squared in NYC, and I'm looking to make one following the [Serious Eats guide][] sometime this year. [Detroit-style pizza]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit-style_pizza https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit-style_pizza [Serious Eats guide]: http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2017/02/detroit-style-pizza-recipe.html http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2017/02/detroit-style-piz...
  - segmondy 9y ago
    Detroit has great foods. For great places to eat, trust that you have never heard of them. Not nationwide chains. There are tons of random hole in the wall joint with amazing food. You just have to know them usually through luck or referral because you could walk past them many times and not know there's amazing food in there.
    - danans 9y ago
      I'm from the area, so I definitely know that there is great food there, from little local delis to the best middle eastern food in the US. I'm just not aware of a great local pizza tradition. And for me personally, Buddy's Detroit-style pizza (I grew up eating it) doesn't meet that standard.
jdhn 9y ago
Same goes for UX designers. Very few direct hire positions, and almost everything is a 6 to 12 month "contract to hire" that magically never turns into an actual position. Plus, I'd say that for every job that a company advertises, there's at least 5 or 6 recruiters who will post ads for that same exact job. Anecdotal story: I interviewed at a well known ad company here in the Metro Detroit area, and the recruiter let it slip that he had sent 16 people their way before me. While I'm sure that this guy was just throwing warm bodies at the position in hopes of earning a commission, it's kind of unbelievable that competition is that fierce here.
- oceanghost 9y ago
  The balls on some of the C2H people are amazing. I had been at a position for 10 years-- some CEO calls me and says my skillset would be PERFECT for his company, would I be interested in talking. We get into details, its C2H, I decline. He was absolutely incensed, he says, "well, its just to make sure you're a good culture fit!" To which I reply, "I'm not going to leave a stable job for what is essentially contract work." He was beyond pissed, I guess he was acclimated to dealing with idiots.
  - ryandrake 9y ago
    You likely dodged a bullet there. A CEO getting “beyond pissed” over what is essentially a business deal is weird. Does he also get beyond pissed when he loses a customer or when a deadline slips? Super red flag when a company rep (let alone the CEO) loses their cool during something as pedestrian as hiring!
    - oceanghost 9y ago
      Oh I know I did. If I'm PERFECT for the role-- why contract again? I'm not going to pull my trigger if you're not going to pull yours. These amateur [psycho|soicio]paths have no balls. A real psycho would have hired me then fired me. Basically, he is confident enough to lie to someone to hire them, but not confident enough to simply fire them when needed.
  - 9y ago
curiouscat321 9y ago
The salaries, sadly, are really lagging. I just graduated from UMich and I can name a small handful of people who stayed in the state. The vast majority of them moved out west. Even when you account for the lower COL, the salaries are just too low in the Detroit area. It’s getting better, but the area needs more real tech employers who value software engineers. The automotive companies still seem to treat them as cost centers.

_raaq 9y ago

EX Denver developer here. Colorado Native. Now an Austin Dev (I'm a senior / lead android dev) I can safely say that the job market in Denver is terrible. Yes you can find work, but the company culture are terrible. I found myself with brogrammers that had 0 engineering style hobbies or being asked to work 60 hours every week. There are a few gems.. But the Jobs you want, aren't hiring mobile devs because their offices are start up size. IE Uber, google, github. Those are all Boulder offices anyways, not Denver. In Denver you will get mostly Banks, and dinos like Comast / Aol. Sure some will get offers at Pivotal or Workday. But after that you aren't going to like what you can get. Seriously the drug use is pretty Rampant in Denver too. Not a turn off to all, but given the places I did work, you wouldn't expect it. Texas is so much better. The job I have is so much better, My coworkers are actually nerdy. Honestly. Sorry I just have to laugh at the idea that desert is a great place to look for work. Here in Austin we can't even find android devs to apply. Denver I interviewed maybe 20 and found most to be just okay.

electricslpnsld 9y ago
What type of position were you looking for? I have friends who do backend dev in Denver (lots of Go and Rails folks), and recruiters are beating down the doors to hire them. I haven't heard of anyone going for more than a few weeks before landing a solid gig in the area.
- starwind0 9y ago
  Android devs. We can find iOS easily. No one wants to do Android. Seems weird given that android is OS. But I live in Austin now, not Denver. Denver is terrible.
  - matwood 9y ago
    > Android devs. We can find iOS easily. No one wants to do Android. Seems weird given that android is OS. Having done both, Android development is a pain and just not fun. The simulator/emulator situation has improved a lot which helps, but it used to be a terrible development experience.

kenhwang 9y ago

Can confirm that Los Angeles has wonderful supply of engineers and low demand for them. I would rather fight it out here and try my luck than move to Austin/Denver/Detroit though.

starwind0 9y ago
I lived in San Diego. That was worse than Denver by a lot. I think I got 1 interview at, oh Jitterbug? Went back to Denver, now I am in Austin.
- Cyph0n 9y ago
  SD is paradise for hardware devs, though!

jupiter90000 9y ago

Does the Dallas story (low demand for devs, high availability of devs) line up with the experience of those here familiar with the market? Based on just looking at job postings, it didn't seem like there was a lack of demand for devs in that area, but I know that postings don't necessarily equate to high demand. Also if that's true, do alot of the Dallas devs in need of work go to Austin? Or is that not done for some reason?

arenaninja 9y ago
Interested in hearing the answer to this since I've had several companies from Dallas reaching out to me (I'm in Houston). I'm considering the relo but I'd prefer to not be moving again in a few years
vonmoltke 9y ago
> Does the Dallas story (low demand for devs, high availability of devs) line up with the experience of those here familiar with the market? Based on just looking at job postings, it didn't seem like there was a lack of demand for devs in that area, but I know that postings don't necessarily equate to high demand. That was my experience when I ejected 18 months ago. Yes, there are a lot of postings. There are also a lot of shitty or picky companies. > Also if that's true, do alot of the Dallas devs in need of work go to Austin? Or is that not done for some reason? Not sure. I tried, but I could hardly get interviews down there, either.
pm90 9y ago
Speaking purely from anecdotal evidence: Dallas certainly does have a lot of good jobs, but its not a liberal enclave like Austin. In some ways its more representative of Texas than Austin, which is definitely more like SF (except maybe the rents, which are definitely far more reasonable). But Dallas has its own charms for sure. You can get really huge houses close to work for pretty cheap, the school systems are pretty great. The big Software firms (Google, Apple, Facebook etc.) are all moving to Austin though.
- Cshelton 9y ago
  Dallas as a whole is for sure not a liberal enclave like Austin, however, the downtown/uptown/deep ellum bubbles of Dallas most certainly are. If you are coming from SF/CA, Colorado, Austin even, and you are in that part of Dallas, you will feel at home. The "Texas" stereotypes you have for sure heard about are pretty absent here. For affordable housing, you can definitely get it, but if you want something close to downtown/uptown, it's a good step up. Also, the housing market here is ridiculous, one of the fastest growing markets in the nation. You will be paying above ask in a bidding war for anything you find. And you better be ready to put your money down, no contingency, sometimes before you get to even walk in the front door to see the house. It's that insane.

enraged_camel 9y ago

I have lived in Austin for 3 years now and I work in tech. It's a fantastic city. Great weather throughout the year (very hot though - not everyone's cup of tea!), lots of gorgeous outdoor environments within very close proximity to the city center, and plenty of nice people, many of whom are newly-arrived transplants and are optimistic about life and looking to make new friends. I'm the organizer of a bouldering meetup[1]. We started back in September but already have 250+ members. I'd say more than a third of them work in tech so it's great for networking too. :) [1]https://www.meetup.com/Bouldering-in-Austin https://www.meetup.com/Bouldering-in-Austin

jdhn 9y ago
As someone who wants to move to Austin and has dabbled in bouldering but enjoyed it, thanks for the link!
pm90 9y ago
Hey, didn't know you were in Austin! Definitely will check out the meetup. I'm an occasional climber. Besides what you already mentioned: the food is one major factor that I like Austin. From BBQ (Franklin, Salt Lick etc.) to Tacos (Torchy's, Taco Deli) to ethnic Indian, Korean etc. this city has it all and new restaurants are opening all the time. If you like beer and breweries, Austin has many of them too. Oscar Blues, ABGB, 512, Adelberts, Jester King etc. are just a few that come to mind. There are lot of brewpubs as well and new ones are opening all the times. If you're young and into the nightlife scene, Austin has a lively scene and you can literally go out any night of the week and find something interesting. From live music to famous bands, to music festivals, there's ALWAYS something to do, which is really fucking amazing. Generally I don't like to say too many nice things since I like to keep this amazing city all to myself. But maybe HN crowd is ok :).
SeanBoocock 9y ago
Austin Bouldering Project is great. It is an impressive facility with a really engaged community (almost too much of a good thing, weekends are busy). Highly recommend for any Austinites who may be curious about climbing.

pxlpshr 9y ago

For anyone looking for engineering positions in Austin, we are hiring at athenahealth ($ATHN). Senior-level positions in C#/.NET (+Azure), JAVA (+AWS), ReactJS/Native, iOS/Android. Our Austin office is where a lot of R&D happens and there is a huge push to re-platform into micro services. athenahealth also owns Epocrates, a very popular mobile app used by more than 600K providers. That product team is based here, too. Great place to work, beautiful office, downtown location with parking included, and a very mission-driven culture. Find me on LinkedIn or my Gmail in my HN profile. Happy to connect you with the hiring managers.

justherefortart 9y ago
Do you provide your employees with better insurance options? https://www.consumeraffairs.com/insurance/aetna_health.html https://www.consumeraffairs.com/insurance/aetna_health.html Dirtbag company.
- sbr464 9y ago
  Not sure aetna and athena health are the same thing.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
yanslookup 9y ago
This is pretty ballsy considering the layoffs and push to offshore development going on right now at Athena... stock price is doing good though...

throwaway_woxx7 9y ago

I've lived in Austin for about 5 years. Grad school, not work. My programmer friends seem to have no problem getting jobs, and I have no shortage of male friends, but the gender ratio of singles is pretty heavily skewed towards men for introverted nerds. I'm a single male who doesn't have a lot of free time, so I gave up on dating in Austin. The city doesn't seem to attract many people I'd like to date. Particularly compared against where I lived previously. Many of the people under 35 in Austin seem to have been attracted to the city for the music festivals and relative lack of cold weather. I'm an introvert who finds the summer heat here worse than the cold on the east coast. As I said, Austinites are typically not my kind of people. Something to keep in mind if you believe you might be similar to me. Austin is probably not worse than SF, but I don't intend to live there after I graduate either.

pm90 9y ago
I haven't found that experience at all. In fact one of the reasons I refuse to move to Man Jose or SF is because I've heard of the famously skewed sex ratio. There is a lot more diversity in Austin, and as a single guy in his late 20's I've had a very healthy dating experience.
- justherefortart 9y ago
  SF is a sausage fest without a doubt. Fortunately, there's a lot of sausage on sausage action (if that's your thing :-) I lived in the bay area for ~4 years, lots of dudes, immigrants, and really wealthy people (in addition to a lot of the working poor). Interesting place just not my cup of tea. Did make Buena Vista inspired Irish Coffees last night though.
- throwaway_woxx7 9y ago
  I don't doubt SF, etc., is worse. My experience suggests Austin is a step down from where I lived previously. Perhaps you're more attractive or patient than I am. I also just realized that I forgot to mention that I'm a teetotaler, which seem to be a major turnoff to people here. If you don't mind me asking, how do you meet single women here?
9y ago

souprock 9y ago

Two typical problems with this study: 1. There is a failure to clearly specify what is meant by a given city. In this case, linkedin is at least kind enough to use the word "region". For "SF Bay Area", would that count Davis or Santa Cruz? For "Boston", would that count Chelmsford or Braintree? For "Washington D.C.", would that count Arlington or Annapolis Junction or Ballston or Dulles? 2. Anything below a certain size is not considered. If the big city has 54321 people fighting over 12345 jobs, while the small city has 123 people considering 321 jobs, going for the big city might not be so wise. This is before even adjusting for quality-of-life problems in cities.

purplezooey 9y ago

I don't know why Bay Area companies don't open more in the East Bay. Many of their employees live there. Less commute. It's baffling why companies are so focused on the misery that is Mountain View or Palo Alto.

reducesuffering 9y ago
It is pretty astonishing how little tech companies there are in Hayward, Union City, Fremont, and Milpitas. Tens of thousands of available tech workers commuting to the Valley. Companies opening up there could drastically reduce the extremely constrained traffic, then residents all around the bay would allow for more housing. What's the downside?
- woolvalley 9y ago
  Offices tend to be close to where the CEO lives. Where do CEO and founder types tend to live? West bay. Also an informal poll of coworkers find most of them live in SF or the south bay today.
- fbdjskajxb 9y ago
  There are lots of devs who live in the East Bay (I used to live there myself), but most don’t. The more successful devs (who you are looking to poach) generally live on the other side, and they live there because they don’t want to drive across the bay twice a day. It’s more of a Moneyball move - go for the underappreciated talent you can get cheap. There are companies doing that, but it’s not for everyone. If you get specific with the location, you realize Oakland and Pleasanton, Walnut Creek and Hayward are pretty far apart, so you don’t even get great access to the whole East Bay. You might as well move to Austin, Denver, or Detroit at that point and pay the same price for a better location. Although you might see major companies open offices if there is a critical mass eg. maybe it would make sense for Google or Facebook to open a satellite office in Newark if enough employees are commuting across the Dumbarton. Uber was going to make a big office in Oakland, but apparently canceled those plans.

tombachar 9y ago

Just moved my startup(www.getpei.co) from Los Angeles to Austin for an accelerator and can attest that software is sprawling! There are tons of great meetups supported by a ton of great innovative companies and with amazing events like SXSW (which will be our first) they environment is growing for engineers. The reason I see this happening is because I believe with the roots of live music in Austin, there is a lot of creativity growing around here. When you mix it with effective development and adventurous culture, there is a great mixture of support systems to really build a software-based community. Weirdly enough, my company is actually looking for a CMO now in the area, and we are finding it difficult to fill the position at an early stage company. So shameless plug, if you are in the area ( which I am finding a lot of Austin is HN), please feel free to reach out!

kdazzle 9y ago

Detroit might be okay if you like long commutes, no transit, and (typically) conservative workplaces. Pay seems like its increasing a bit, if stack overflow jobs is any indicator. It would be an awesome place for a startup with all the cheap property and rent. People here are nicer than anywhere else I’ve ever lived I miss biking and walking to work. And while thats possible here, it’s not easy to find. But Detroit’s not an easy city and that’s one of its charms. Heh, though people generally don’t talk about Detroit’s hardships in terms of biking to your tech job.

vin7 9y ago
It's weird. The brain drain is constant though, and you have to put up with being the smartest guy in the room and the people you admire always leaving for, like, Phoenix or Pittsburgh. You can buy a mansion for like $50k and then who is going to attend your dinner parties? Your hot wife is a junkie instead of a doctor or pilot. Cleveland rocks.

vin7 9y ago

We're looking for things to make us go.