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I don't know the answer, but I have to agree that it has nothing to do with silicon valley, venture capitalists, or really the tech industry at all. My introdu

by btmorex 16y ago

I don't know the answer, but I have to agree that it has nothing to do with silicon valley, venture capitalists, or really the tech industry at all. My introductory freshmen computer science course had about 100 people of which maybe 10 were female (this is at a school that has more women overall than men). You simply can't recover from a gender disparity like that. Also, remember, this is a course that you decide on taking essentially before even getting to college. The kids enrolling in this course hadn't even been exposed to all the things that people usually blame the gender disparity on.

Groxx 16y ago
Similar setup at my school, albeit smaller. A single female goes through the CS major every year or two at most, compared to 30-50 males, and fewer still graduate with a CS major. We have a 2:1 ratio in favor of women, and it used to be higher, and still had a similar amount in the major.
timr 16y ago
"I don't know the answer, but I have to agree that it has nothing to do with silicon valley, venture capitalists," Yes. The "system" really does seem to try. "or really the tech industry at all." ....aaaaand, No. You've just grossly over-generalized. The tech industry is clearly unappealing to women. Maybe that's because women like to have a sense of the humanity of their work. Maybe it's because it's a terrible choice of long-term career. Maybe it's Barbie's fault. But just because you can't identify the reason, doesn't mean that the phenomenon doesn't exist. Instead of observing that your freshman courses were hideously gender-unbalanced and then stopping the intellectual pursuit, you have to dig deeper. It's a hard problem, but even hard problems have an explanation. I can come up with one consistent pattern without even trying: most women don't like working with anti-social losers. And like it or not, our industry is filled with 'em. Personally, I had about the same number of women in my CS101 course (back in the mid-90s) as you did, but the difference is, I saw them treated like shit -- usually by guys who didn't have a clue that the way they behaved was boorish and offensive. Those guys also liked to believe that the gender inequality in CS was "just the way things are". Nonsense. More recently (just a couple of years ago), I had a female friend who became really interested in CS, and enrolled in the 101 courses at a top program. Because of the way the courses were structured, she was a brand-new programmer, competing with guys who had been writing code since they were knee-high. Doesn't matter -- she still kicked their asses; she was one of the top students in the class. But she ultimately dropped out of the program because she felt unwelcome, and felt that the barriers she had to overcome were too high. Every day, I was treated to a new story of how some dude ignored her opinions, stared at her chest, or belittled her in front of her peers. It was infuriating. To this day -- from classroom to coffeehouse -- I see programmers who treat women like another species. Just today, I watched a guy write code, while taking a break every two minutes to check out a nearby girl's "attributes". It isn't cute, it isn't endearing, and you can damn well bet that this kind of stuff plays a role in why women decide that they don't want to work with us -- even before they get to school. And it's our fault.
- btmorex 16y ago
  shrug... you've named a bunch of things that have to do with the tech industry. The whole point I was trying to make is that women are deciding to stay away from engineering before being exposed to any of that. A 17 year old who decides she's not going to take cs101 hasn't been treated poorly by awkward coworkers for years. she hasn't had trouble getting hired because of gender bias. She hasn't been disparaged in front of her tech peers. And yet she still decides to not go into CS. I still maintain that whatever brought about that decision (maybe gender roles from an early age or being put off by awkward teenage nerds... whatever) really has nothing to do with the tech industry. Today's tech industry is a result of that bias not the cause of it.
  - timr 16y ago
    "The whole point I was trying to make is that women are deciding to stay away from engineering before being exposed to any of that." Yeah, I know. I see what you're saying, and I agree that the roots of the problem start young -- but I contend that even little girls are sophisticated enough to know that a particular subject is dominated by the least-social 5% of their peers. I'm sure there are tons of other factors, too. That said, when I have so many real-life examples of girls who enter the field later in life, then get treated badly and leave, I know that it makes a difference. When only 10% of your incoming classes are women, it doesn't take much bad behavior to ensure that the number of women in the industry never grows.
    - yxhuvud 16y ago
      It is not that surprising though. When you are part of a 50-50 group or a group where you are part of the majority, then you can hide in that group. If you are part of a 1-10 group, then you really won't be able to hide in the group. Or in other words, it is a bad feedback loop that ends up perpetuating status quo.
  - blahedo 16y ago
    It's a bit facile to limit "the tech industry" in this way, observing that girls acquire their anti-tech biases while in school and therefore letting "the tech industry" off the hook. Your hypothetical 17-year-old may not have had problems with "awkward coworkers" or "getting hired", but you can bet that she's been influenced by the culture surrounding technology, as have her male peers, at least some of whom have almost certainly belittled her technical skills as a result. And she very likely has been "disparaged in front of her tech peers".
philwelch 16y ago
And if your CS program is even halfway as "progressive" as mine, all 10 of those females will be given scholarships and aggressively targeted for retention far above and beyond the male students.
gbhn 16y ago
You think? I thought the typical blame was placed on high school stereotypes; as you point out, by college most women want nothing to do with engineering or computer science. (Hence FIRST, among other efforts.) Another explanation I've heard is that women are smart enough to see that the expected value of going into medicine or law is substantially higher. Given the social status and economics are better, why wouldn't they enter those fields instead?
- _delirium 16y ago
  There seem to be differences even earlier than high-school stereotypes or economics become a consideration, though--- my after-school Logo class for elementary-aged students was mostly boys too. Due to girls just not being interested? Due to parents pushing their male v. female children in different directions? Something else? Whatever the reason(s), it's pretty early overall, I think; all the techies I knew in high school began becoming techies quite a bit before high school.

by btmorex 16y ago

Groxx 16y ago

Similar setup at my school, albeit smaller. A single female goes through the CS major every year or two at most, compared to 30-50 males, and fewer still graduate with a CS major. We have a 2:1 ratio in favor of women, and it used to be higher, and still had a similar amount in the major.

timr 16y ago

"I don't know the answer, but I have to agree that it has nothing to do with silicon valley, venture capitalists," Yes. The "system" really does seem to try. "or really the tech industry at all." ....aaaaand, No. You've just grossly over-generalized. The tech industry is clearly unappealing to women. Maybe that's because women like to have a sense of the humanity of their work. Maybe it's because it's a terrible choice of long-term career. Maybe it's Barbie's fault. But just because you can't identify the reason, doesn't mean that the phenomenon doesn't exist. Instead of observing that your freshman courses were hideously gender-unbalanced and then stopping the intellectual pursuit, you have to dig deeper. It's a hard problem, but even hard problems have an explanation. I can come up with one consistent pattern without even trying: most women don't like working with anti-social losers. And like it or not, our industry is filled with 'em. Personally, I had about the same number of women in my CS101 course (back in the mid-90s) as you did, but the difference is, I saw them treated like shit -- usually by guys who didn't have a clue that the way they behaved was boorish and offensive. Those guys also liked to believe that the gender inequality in CS was "just the way things are". Nonsense. More recently (just a couple of years ago), I had a female friend who became really interested in CS, and enrolled in the 101 courses at a top program. Because of the way the courses were structured, she was a brand-new programmer, competing with guys who had been writing code since they were knee-high. Doesn't matter -- she still kicked their asses; she was one of the top students in the class. But she ultimately dropped out of the program because she felt unwelcome, and felt that the barriers she had to overcome were too high. Every day, I was treated to a new story of how some dude ignored her opinions, stared at her chest, or belittled her in front of her peers. It was infuriating. To this day -- from classroom to coffeehouse -- I see programmers who treat women like another species. Just today, I watched a guy write code, while taking a break every two minutes to check out a nearby girl's "attributes". It isn't cute, it isn't endearing, and you can damn well bet that this kind of stuff plays a role in why women decide that they don't want to work with us -- even before they get to school. And it's our fault.

btmorex 16y ago
shrug... you've named a bunch of things that have to do with the tech industry. The whole point I was trying to make is that women are deciding to stay away from engineering before being exposed to any of that. A 17 year old who decides she's not going to take cs101 hasn't been treated poorly by awkward coworkers for years. she hasn't had trouble getting hired because of gender bias. She hasn't been disparaged in front of her tech peers. And yet she still decides to not go into CS. I still maintain that whatever brought about that decision (maybe gender roles from an early age or being put off by awkward teenage nerds... whatever) really has nothing to do with the tech industry. Today's tech industry is a result of that bias not the cause of it.
- timr 16y ago
  "The whole point I was trying to make is that women are deciding to stay away from engineering before being exposed to any of that." Yeah, I know. I see what you're saying, and I agree that the roots of the problem start young -- but I contend that even little girls are sophisticated enough to know that a particular subject is dominated by the least-social 5% of their peers. I'm sure there are tons of other factors, too. That said, when I have so many real-life examples of girls who enter the field later in life, then get treated badly and leave, I know that it makes a difference. When only 10% of your incoming classes are women, it doesn't take much bad behavior to ensure that the number of women in the industry never grows.
  - yxhuvud 16y ago
    It is not that surprising though. When you are part of a 50-50 group or a group where you are part of the majority, then you can hide in that group. If you are part of a 1-10 group, then you really won't be able to hide in the group. Or in other words, it is a bad feedback loop that ends up perpetuating status quo.
- blahedo 16y ago
  It's a bit facile to limit "the tech industry" in this way, observing that girls acquire their anti-tech biases while in school and therefore letting "the tech industry" off the hook. Your hypothetical 17-year-old may not have had problems with "awkward coworkers" or "getting hired", but you can bet that she's been influenced by the culture surrounding technology, as have her male peers, at least some of whom have almost certainly belittled her technical skills as a result. And she very likely has been "disparaged in front of her tech peers".

philwelch 16y ago

And if your CS program is even halfway as "progressive" as mine, all 10 of those females will be given scholarships and aggressively targeted for retention far above and beyond the male students.

gbhn 16y ago

You think? I thought the typical blame was placed on high school stereotypes; as you point out, by college most women want nothing to do with engineering or computer science. (Hence FIRST, among other efforts.) Another explanation I've heard is that women are smart enough to see that the expected value of going into medicine or law is substantially higher. Given the social status and economics are better, why wouldn't they enter those fields instead?

_delirium 16y ago
There seem to be differences even earlier than high-school stereotypes or economics become a consideration, though--- my after-school Logo class for elementary-aged students was mostly boys too. Due to girls just not being interested? Due to parents pushing their male v. female children in different directions? Something else? Whatever the reason(s), it's pretty early overall, I think; all the techies I knew in high school began becoming techies quite a bit before high school.