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The fact that Model S has "S" in it doesn't put it in the same class as Mercedes S, it's more in the class of Mercedes E class / BMW 5er, so this article doesn'

The fact that Model S has "S" in it doesn't put it in the same class as Mercedes S, it's more in the class of Mercedes E class / BMW 5er, so this article doesn't make any sense.

deleted 9y ago
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kevincennis 9y ago
Base price (w/o tax credits) of the Model S is very similar to the base price of a 7 series Bimmer. The 5 series is about $30k cheaper to start. Doesn't seem fair to compare sales figures from an $80k car against those from a $50k car. EDIT: Foolishly assumed US prices would roughly translate across markets. I had no idea there was such a large differential in other markets. Consider my comment retracted.
- Xylakant 9y ago
  Base price for the Tesla in Germany seems to be about €69k and the base price for a BMW 7 series about €88k, the 5er Series about €48k (prices according to google) So the Tesla sits pretty right in the middle of the two. One could argue that it doesn’t seem fair to compare the sales figure of a €70k car against those of a € 90k car.
  - adventured 9y ago
    It's not fair to compare a €48k car to a €69k car either then. That's a larger percentage price gap than between €69k and €90k.
    - Xylakant 9y ago
      I didn’t pretend it would be fair. Though in practice, with subsidies etc, the price of a Tesla is much closer to the BMW 5 than it is to the 7 series, especially in the markets where Tesla has it highest sales. Just as a comparison: In Januar 2018, Tesla had 63 newly registered cars in Germany (all models) (1). The BMW 7 series alone had 364. (2) BMW all models 20 759 (1) (1) https://www.kba.de/SharedDocs/Publikationen/DE/Statistik/Fahrzeuge/FZ/2018%20monatlich/FZ8/fz8_201801_pdf.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=5 https://www.kba.de/SharedDocs/Publikationen/DE/Statistik/Fah... (2) https://www.kba.de/DE/Statistik/Fahrzeuge/Neuzulassungen/MonatlicheNeuzulassungen/2018/201801_GV1monatlich/201801_n_top3.html https://www.kba.de/DE/Statistik/Fahrzeuge/Neuzulassungen/Mon...
  - thesimon 9y ago
    >Base price for the Tesla in Germany seems to be about €69k I think it's quite hard to consider 69k€ to be the base price. They placed it at €69k to get subsidies for electric cars, which are only granted up to a sales price of €70k. If you want to customize anything (different color, different interior), you have to get the "Comfort package" @ €13k. You also have to get the "comfort package" if you want basic stuff like navigation or radio. €82k seems to be the fairer price point, especially considering this was the regular base model price until the government started providing the subsidies :)
- freddie_mercury 9y ago
  In Germany a Tesla Model S base price is 69.020 €. In Germany a Mercedes-Benz S-Klasse base price (the S-350) is 85.590 €. Neither car is $50,000 or $80,000 in the markets the article is talking about, so I'm a bit confused by what your post is referring to.
  - thesimon 9y ago
    >In Germany a Tesla Model S base price is 69.020 €. Hardly the true base price, considering you have to get the "Comfort Package" @ 13k if you want to customize anything or want to get basic stuff like navigation or radio.
- semi-extrinsic 9y ago
  I agree this article makes absolutely no sense. Tesla's biggest market in Europe is Norway. In Norway, the base price of a Model S is $76k, while the cheapest BMW 7-series costs $140k! That's literally double the price!
  - xxs 9y ago
    Could not agree more: Tesla enjoys favorable taxation in Norway compared to any petrol/diesel based car. One can be smashed by the sheer number of Tesla S in Oslo
  - kokey 9y ago
    I think it's a combination of tax breaks and subsidies that are at play here along with high taxes on ICE vehicles. Not just on the purchase price, in some European countries for cars with engine sizes well over 2.0l it totals up to €12000 in road tax to keep it on the road for 5 years.
    - tyfon 9y ago
      No petrol tax, no VAT, no toll fee, free travel by public ferries, free parking on public spots, travel in bus lanes... There are tons of reasons to get a Tesla in Norway at least (or a leaf/e-golf). I tried a Tesla S but it was rattling in all the joins and windows and felt like a very poor build so I passed, but I hope some of the others pick up the slack soon like Audi or Mercedes. By 2025 it will not be legal to sell new petrol or diesel cars anymore[1] here, but I actually want an electric car that goes 500 km. I just want a well built one. [1] https://www.tu.no/artikler/fossilbilene-skal-fases-ut-i-2025/347825 https://www.tu.no/artikler/fossilbilene-skal-fases-ut-i-2025...
      - semi-extrinsic 9y ago
        It will still be legal to sell plug-in hybrids, so the "ban" is just political posturing anyways. E.g. Volvo has stated they will shift all their models to plug-in hybrids well before 2025, so you can still buy your big mainly-petrol XC90 in 20 years time. And by then, all of the perks you mention, like free parking, free ferries, driving in bus lanes, free road tax, they will all be gone even for electric cars. Jeremy Clarkson predicted this whole shitshow perfectly way back when he said he was going to start a car company that put 9V batteries in Hummers and sold them as hybrids. It's pretty infuriating from an environmental perspective though. On a constructive note, have you considered the new Mercedes or BMW plug-ins, like the C350e or the 530e? Realistically you'll get 30 km electric range on one charge, but for many that's enough (or close) for day-to-day driving. By 2025, that's probably doubled (or more). Then you just drive on petrol for your longer trips.
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deleted 9y ago
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bigtones 9y ago
You're right. This is Tesla's framing to get comparisons articles like these. The Tesla Model S should be compared to mid-range BMW's and Mercedes and the shipping numbers for those German models far eclipse the Tesla Model S.
- olivermarks 9y ago
  Tesla are marketing and branding geniuses - they make Jobs look like an amateur
- djrogers 9y ago
  Isn’t it still a ‘lesser’ car outsold similarly priced ‘better’ cars though? Seems like if the comparison were flipped, all the Tesla haters would be whining about it being compared to cheaper cars...
bald 9y ago
Who do you think is the authority on this? The German KBA (Kraftfahrtbundesamt, similar to the DOT in the USA) classifies the Model S as Oberklasse, the same class like BMW 7 series and Mercedes S class. Coming from a BMW 7 series and now driving a Model S myself, I sure have the feeling that the Model S carries a prestige comparable or higher to that of the 7er.
- TomMarius 9y ago
  This categorization is based on the size of the vehicle, not its target market. If Dacia made a similarly sized lowcost vehicle, it would be in the same category but it'd definitely not be as luxury as Mercedes is. The quality of the vehicle (materials, UX, customer service and so on) doesn't match up with most recent BMW 7 and Mercedes S Klasse. It's on par with older ones, but not with the current ones.
  - cptskippy 9y ago
    I would argue that it's more a factor of cost than size. Each segment contains vehicles of a variety of sizes, in the Oberklasse you have everything from 2 door supercar up to large SUVs. The guidelines for the Fahrzeugsegment by the Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt are really kind of crap. If you gave different people the Abgrenzungskriterien to classify all the cars, you'd end up with different results unless because there's an unspoken weight to the criteria. If I had to hazard a guess, probably 90% of the weight is on base price and another 9% is on "is this vehicle expensive because it's a Camper or Work Truck".
- cptskippy 9y ago
  The Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt says it takes into account a number of Abgrenzungskriterien including size, weight, performance, seating capacity, # of doors; however it has no standard formula for assigning Models to a Fahrzeugsegment. The only criteria used that truly differentiates the segments is price. If you take a look at the vehicles included in the Oberklasse segment you quickly see a pattern, they're all really expensive. If you asked a 5 year old to play "which one of these is not like they other" they'd quickly zero in on the Tesla models very quickly because they don't look like luxury vehicles. That's not to say that the Tesla models aren't very nice cars, they're just not opulent. The Tesla models cost as much as they do because of the technology under the covers. The other cars in the Oberklasse segment aren't technologically expensive, they're pretty bog standard high performance vehicles slathered in expensive and exotic materials and refinements.
dexterdog 9y ago
It's in the class of those vehicles in cost and performance, but it is not in terms of build quality.
hashmal 9y ago
This article doesn't make sense indeed, they are comparing a premium brand (by Tesla's own wording on their website) with luxury brands. (true) luxury brands have a love/hate relationship with "high sales", because every sale that is made lowers the prestige of the brand (to quote Porsche's CEO, "I worry when I see two of my cars in the same street"). Knowing that, comparing a company that benefits from selling more with companies that benefit from maintaining prestige is absurd.
audunw 9y ago
I find it odd that there's so much discussion about this. It's pretty simple, and I think everyone understands how they compare if you just list the facts: It's in the same price-class as S-class/7-series, but since operating costs are lower it still attracts E-class/7-series customers. It's nearer to the high end classes when it comes to tech-factor and autonomy. It's also arguably in a class of its own when it comes to software and OTA updates. It's in a class of its own when it comes to engine performance, since BMW and Mercedes don't have EVs in that segment. EVs have very different performance characteristics, but Tesla is arguably better in many ways. It's in the E-class/5-Series segment in fit and finish and various luxury features. I think the Model S is attracting S-class/7-series customers, without a doubt. I'm sure some of those would sacrifice fit and finish for the unique experience that the Model S delivers. But it doesn't attract everyone in that market. That goes without saying.

The fact that Model S has "S" in it doesn't put it in the same class as Mercedes S, it's more in the class of Mercedes E class / BMW 5er, so this article doesn't make any sense.

deleted 9y ago

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kevincennis 9y ago

Base price (w/o tax credits) of the Model S is very similar to the base price of a 7 series Bimmer. The 5 series is about $30k cheaper to start. Doesn't seem fair to compare sales figures from an $80k car against those from a $50k car. EDIT: Foolishly assumed US prices would roughly translate across markets. I had no idea there was such a large differential in other markets. Consider my comment retracted.

Xylakant 9y ago
Base price for the Tesla in Germany seems to be about €69k and the base price for a BMW 7 series about €88k, the 5er Series about €48k (prices according to google) So the Tesla sits pretty right in the middle of the two. One could argue that it doesn’t seem fair to compare the sales figure of a €70k car against those of a € 90k car.
- adventured 9y ago
  It's not fair to compare a €48k car to a €69k car either then. That's a larger percentage price gap than between €69k and €90k.
  - Xylakant 9y ago
    I didn’t pretend it would be fair. Though in practice, with subsidies etc, the price of a Tesla is much closer to the BMW 5 than it is to the 7 series, especially in the markets where Tesla has it highest sales. Just as a comparison: In Januar 2018, Tesla had 63 newly registered cars in Germany (all models) (1). The BMW 7 series alone had 364. (2) BMW all models 20 759 (1) (1) https://www.kba.de/SharedDocs/Publikationen/DE/Statistik/Fahrzeuge/FZ/2018%20monatlich/FZ8/fz8_201801_pdf.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=5 https://www.kba.de/SharedDocs/Publikationen/DE/Statistik/Fah... (2) https://www.kba.de/DE/Statistik/Fahrzeuge/Neuzulassungen/MonatlicheNeuzulassungen/2018/201801_GV1monatlich/201801_n_top3.html https://www.kba.de/DE/Statistik/Fahrzeuge/Neuzulassungen/Mon...
- thesimon 9y ago
  >Base price for the Tesla in Germany seems to be about €69k I think it's quite hard to consider 69k€ to be the base price. They placed it at €69k to get subsidies for electric cars, which are only granted up to a sales price of €70k. If you want to customize anything (different color, different interior), you have to get the "Comfort package" @ €13k. You also have to get the "comfort package" if you want basic stuff like navigation or radio. €82k seems to be the fairer price point, especially considering this was the regular base model price until the government started providing the subsidies :)
freddie_mercury 9y ago
In Germany a Tesla Model S base price is 69.020 €. In Germany a Mercedes-Benz S-Klasse base price (the S-350) is 85.590 €. Neither car is $50,000 or $80,000 in the markets the article is talking about, so I'm a bit confused by what your post is referring to.
- thesimon 9y ago
  >In Germany a Tesla Model S base price is 69.020 €. Hardly the true base price, considering you have to get the "Comfort Package" @ 13k if you want to customize anything or want to get basic stuff like navigation or radio.
semi-extrinsic 9y ago
I agree this article makes absolutely no sense. Tesla's biggest market in Europe is Norway. In Norway, the base price of a Model S is $76k, while the cheapest BMW 7-series costs $140k! That's literally double the price!
- xxs 9y ago
  Could not agree more: Tesla enjoys favorable taxation in Norway compared to any petrol/diesel based car. One can be smashed by the sheer number of Tesla S in Oslo
- kokey 9y ago
  I think it's a combination of tax breaks and subsidies that are at play here along with high taxes on ICE vehicles. Not just on the purchase price, in some European countries for cars with engine sizes well over 2.0l it totals up to €12000 in road tax to keep it on the road for 5 years.
  - tyfon 9y ago
    No petrol tax, no VAT, no toll fee, free travel by public ferries, free parking on public spots, travel in bus lanes... There are tons of reasons to get a Tesla in Norway at least (or a leaf/e-golf). I tried a Tesla S but it was rattling in all the joins and windows and felt like a very poor build so I passed, but I hope some of the others pick up the slack soon like Audi or Mercedes. By 2025 it will not be legal to sell new petrol or diesel cars anymore[1] here, but I actually want an electric car that goes 500 km. I just want a well built one. [1] https://www.tu.no/artikler/fossilbilene-skal-fases-ut-i-2025/347825 https://www.tu.no/artikler/fossilbilene-skal-fases-ut-i-2025...
    - semi-extrinsic 9y ago
      It will still be legal to sell plug-in hybrids, so the "ban" is just political posturing anyways. E.g. Volvo has stated they will shift all their models to plug-in hybrids well before 2025, so you can still buy your big mainly-petrol XC90 in 20 years time. And by then, all of the perks you mention, like free parking, free ferries, driving in bus lanes, free road tax, they will all be gone even for electric cars. Jeremy Clarkson predicted this whole shitshow perfectly way back when he said he was going to start a car company that put 9V batteries in Hummers and sold them as hybrids. It's pretty infuriating from an environmental perspective though. On a constructive note, have you considered the new Mercedes or BMW plug-ins, like the C350e or the 530e? Realistically you'll get 30 km electric range on one charge, but for many that's enough (or close) for day-to-day driving. By 2025, that's probably doubled (or more). Then you just drive on petrol for your longer trips.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

bigtones 9y ago

You're right. This is Tesla's framing to get comparisons articles like these. The Tesla Model S should be compared to mid-range BMW's and Mercedes and the shipping numbers for those German models far eclipse the Tesla Model S.

olivermarks 9y ago
Tesla are marketing and branding geniuses - they make Jobs look like an amateur
djrogers 9y ago
Isn’t it still a ‘lesser’ car outsold similarly priced ‘better’ cars though? Seems like if the comparison were flipped, all the Tesla haters would be whining about it being compared to cheaper cars...

bald 9y ago

Who do you think is the authority on this? The German KBA (Kraftfahrtbundesamt, similar to the DOT in the USA) classifies the Model S as Oberklasse, the same class like BMW 7 series and Mercedes S class. Coming from a BMW 7 series and now driving a Model S myself, I sure have the feeling that the Model S carries a prestige comparable or higher to that of the 7er.

TomMarius 9y ago
This categorization is based on the size of the vehicle, not its target market. If Dacia made a similarly sized lowcost vehicle, it would be in the same category but it'd definitely not be as luxury as Mercedes is. The quality of the vehicle (materials, UX, customer service and so on) doesn't match up with most recent BMW 7 and Mercedes S Klasse. It's on par with older ones, but not with the current ones.
- cptskippy 9y ago
  I would argue that it's more a factor of cost than size. Each segment contains vehicles of a variety of sizes, in the Oberklasse you have everything from 2 door supercar up to large SUVs. The guidelines for the Fahrzeugsegment by the Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt are really kind of crap. If you gave different people the Abgrenzungskriterien to classify all the cars, you'd end up with different results unless because there's an unspoken weight to the criteria. If I had to hazard a guess, probably 90% of the weight is on base price and another 9% is on "is this vehicle expensive because it's a Camper or Work Truck".
cptskippy 9y ago
The Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt says it takes into account a number of Abgrenzungskriterien including size, weight, performance, seating capacity, # of doors; however it has no standard formula for assigning Models to a Fahrzeugsegment. The only criteria used that truly differentiates the segments is price. If you take a look at the vehicles included in the Oberklasse segment you quickly see a pattern, they're all really expensive. If you asked a 5 year old to play "which one of these is not like they other" they'd quickly zero in on the Tesla models very quickly because they don't look like luxury vehicles. That's not to say that the Tesla models aren't very nice cars, they're just not opulent. The Tesla models cost as much as they do because of the technology under the covers. The other cars in the Oberklasse segment aren't technologically expensive, they're pretty bog standard high performance vehicles slathered in expensive and exotic materials and refinements.

dexterdog 9y ago

It's in the class of those vehicles in cost and performance, but it is not in terms of build quality.

hashmal 9y ago

This article doesn't make sense indeed, they are comparing a premium brand (by Tesla's own wording on their website) with luxury brands. (true) luxury brands have a love/hate relationship with "high sales", because every sale that is made lowers the prestige of the brand (to quote Porsche's CEO, "I worry when I see two of my cars in the same street"). Knowing that, comparing a company that benefits from selling more with companies that benefit from maintaining prestige is absurd.

audunw 9y ago

I find it odd that there's so much discussion about this. It's pretty simple, and I think everyone understands how they compare if you just list the facts: It's in the same price-class as S-class/7-series, but since operating costs are lower it still attracts E-class/7-series customers. It's nearer to the high end classes when it comes to tech-factor and autonomy. It's also arguably in a class of its own when it comes to software and OTA updates. It's in a class of its own when it comes to engine performance, since BMW and Mercedes don't have EVs in that segment. EVs have very different performance characteristics, but Tesla is arguably better in many ways. It's in the E-class/5-Series segment in fit and finish and various luxury features. I think the Model S is attracting S-class/7-series customers, without a doubt. I'm sure some of those would sacrifice fit and finish for the unique experience that the Model S delivers. But it doesn't attract everyone in that market. That goes without saying.