14 ms·

Tesla Model S outsells German luxury flagships in Europe

242 points by evo_9 9y ago

JumpCrisscross 9y ago
Original source: http://europe.autonews.com/article/20180220/ANE/180219831/tesla-model-s-outsells-german-luxury-flagships-in-europe http://europe.autonews.com/article/20180220/ANE/180219831/te... From the Hacker News Guidelines [1]: "Please submit the original source. If a post reports on something found on another site, submit the latter." [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- sctb 9y ago
  Thanks, we've updated the link from https://electrek.co/2018/02/20/tesla-dominates-luxury-segment-europe-gas-powered-german-cars/ https://electrek.co/2018/02/20/tesla-dominates-luxury-segmen....
madengr 9y ago
I suppose premium in Europe is luxury in the USA. Isn’t a 7 series BMW about $140k USD?
- xversilov 9y ago
  Yeah, nobody buys a 7 series to drive themselves. The 5 series is BMW's driver flagship, IMO.
  - sorenjan 9y ago
    Never seen a 7-series that wasn't driven by the owner.
    - dingaling 9y ago
      My local council had one chauffeur-driven for the Mayor and associates until the need for a more 'austere' public image saw it being replaced by a Skoda Octavia ( Jetta / Golf platform ). I think the Mayor of Belfast still rides in the back of a 7.
    - TomMarius 9y ago
      Not the base one, that's true. The "Lang" versions are made for sitting on the back seat.
  - ryanlol 9y ago
    This may be true in China, but not most other countries.
  - alkonaut 9y ago
    The "I don't drive myself"-version of e.g. the Audi A8 is the A8L. Same for the BMW 7. (At least they used to have e.g. the 740L). But both the S-class and the 7-series are very VERY rare luxury cars. I see thousands of 5-series and E-classes for every 7-series or S-class. The difference in price must be huge in europe compared to the US, because there I saw tons of 7-series and S-class was almost as common as E-class.
    - jacquesm 9y ago
      Yes, the price difference is huge. E class is common as a taxi here, base price for a consumer model is 55K Euros, S class nearly double that.
      - alkonaut 9y ago
        What’s the reason (apart from tradition making people think it’s normal) the proce difference between these models is so big in the EU and not in the US?
        jacquesm 9y ago
        Taxes. I drive a 15 year old car, I would not want to waste money on a new one. My car cost about 14% of what it was new with 55K km on the clock and is in a much cheaper tax bracket than a new one. It's a ridiculous system.
- blotto 9y ago
  In the US a 7 starts at $83,100 - https://www.google.com/search?q=bmw+7+series+msrp&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1-ab https://www.google.com/search?q=bmw+7+series+msrp&ie=utf-8&o....
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    For comparison, in NL they start at 105,000 Euros ($130K), in Germany at 87,000 Euros ($107K).
neverminder 9y ago
The fact that Model S has "S" in it doesn't put it in the same class as Mercedes S, it's more in the class of Mercedes E class / BMW 5er, so this article doesn't make any sense.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- kevincennis 9y ago
  Base price (w/o tax credits) of the Model S is very similar to the base price of a 7 series Bimmer. The 5 series is about $30k cheaper to start. Doesn't seem fair to compare sales figures from an $80k car against those from a $50k car. EDIT: Foolishly assumed US prices would roughly translate across markets. I had no idea there was such a large differential in other markets. Consider my comment retracted.
  - Xylakant 9y ago
    Base price for the Tesla in Germany seems to be about €69k and the base price for a BMW 7 series about €88k, the 5er Series about €48k (prices according to google) So the Tesla sits pretty right in the middle of the two. One could argue that it doesn’t seem fair to compare the sales figure of a €70k car against those of a € 90k car.
    - adventured 9y ago
      It's not fair to compare a €48k car to a €69k car either then. That's a larger percentage price gap than between €69k and €90k.
      - Xylakant 9y ago
        I didn’t pretend it would be fair. Though in practice, with subsidies etc, the price of a Tesla is much closer to the BMW 5 than it is to the 7 series, especially in the markets where Tesla has it highest sales. Just as a comparison: In Januar 2018, Tesla had 63 newly registered cars in Germany (all models) (1). The BMW 7 series alone had 364. (2) BMW all models 20 759 (1) (1) https://www.kba.de/SharedDocs/Publikationen/DE/Statistik/Fahrzeuge/FZ/2018%20monatlich/FZ8/fz8_201801_pdf.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=5 https://www.kba.de/SharedDocs/Publikationen/DE/Statistik/Fah... (2) https://www.kba.de/DE/Statistik/Fahrzeuge/Neuzulassungen/MonatlicheNeuzulassungen/2018/201801_GV1monatlich/201801_n_top3.html https://www.kba.de/DE/Statistik/Fahrzeuge/Neuzulassungen/Mon...
mtgx 9y ago
Good news. But I'm not happy about this: https://blog.redlock.io/cryptojacking-tesla https://blog.redlock.io/cryptojacking-tesla Remember, we don't even have 1/1000 of the cars on the road as self-driving vehicles, and yet these carmakers' systems are already getting hacked. What we can expect when/if Tesla and other carmakers have 50 million self-driving vehicles each on the road?
- scottLobster 9y ago
  "The RedLock CSI team immediately reported the incident to Tesla and the issue was quickly rectified." That's the most you can ask for beyond basic competence. There will always be security bugs in software to some extent, the fact that Tesla responded quickly gives me more confidence in them. But I agree with your overall point, at some point some hacker is going to kill people with a hacked car (probably not a Tesla), and it's going to take lots of dead bodies and legislation for congress to pass appropriate standards for security. Hopefully we'll reach a point where computer security in cars is regulated the same as seat belts and air bags.
  - Consultant32452 9y ago
    Once the state actors have hacked the AI drivers/cameras they will be able to track and kill just about anyone anywhere with them.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - tdb7893 9y ago
      It'll actually probably be hard to do it unnoticed. My guess is that self driving accidents will be heavily scrutinized to try to figure out why it happened. Also the government already can kill pretty much anyone at any time with various means
      - jrs95 9y ago
        But once it’s at scale, it will either be common enough or it could be made to be common enough that there’s a news story about it every other week. At that point, it’s not too difficult to kill specific people in accidents without raising suspicion. This is assuming some amount of cooperation amongst these corporations and state actors, though. And tbh you could probably make much better covert domestic assassination drones. No explosions, no noise, just a poison or something. Maybe even just carbon monoxide.
mtmail 9y ago
Raw data. It doesn't match the number listed in the article exactly but the same trend. http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/tesla/tesla-model-s/ http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/tesla/tesla-... 2017: 16.026, 2016: 11.564: 2015: 15.169 http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/Mercedes-Benz/Mercedes-Benz-S-Class/ http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/Mercedes-Ben... 2017: 14.757, 2016: 14.967, 2015: 16.583 http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/mercedes-benz/mercedes-benz-e-class/ http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/mercedes-ben... 2017: 127.638, 2016: 99.494, 2015: 84.771
cat199 9y ago
I hear that in 5 years everyone will be using tablets and there will be no more laptops or desktops either... oh wait, it's not 2013 anymore.. never mind.
jacquesm 9y ago
Guess what? More Teslas are being sold than Ferrari's as well. This is an apples-to-oranges comparison, every German brand that sells cars in this segment outsells Tesla 5:1 or more. Sales for 2017: Tesla Model S: < 20K BMW 5 series: 109K MB E-class: 125K Note that the EU tax situation for vehicles is very complicated and can cause the price to change so much that a Tesla model S can be much cheaper, about equal or more expensive to a BMW 5 series or E class depending on the country you are looking at.
- adventured 9y ago
  What's the average selling price of the BMW 5 versus the Tesla S? The BMW 5 appears to be significantly cheaper. You reference that and claim an exception based on taxes but don't provide any actual information to clarify it. Besides that, Tesla is growing rapidly, BMW is not growing at all. In the US, which is a massive market for BMW, they're contracting. So when it's 30k S vehicles in Europe next year, it's just going to hurt that much more if you're BMW. The car market in the US and Europe is not meaningfully expanding, every Tesla sold is coming directly out of the pocket of BMW, Mercedes, et al. The ~120,000 Teslas that get sold in 2018 are coming directly at the expense of the German automakers.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    > What's the average selling price of the BMW 5 versus the Tesla S? The average price doesn't matter. The actual price matters and this differs from country to country to such an extent that it will be a large factor in the decision making process. For 2017 NL and Norway for instance were big sellers for Tesla because of huge tax breaks on purchase and subsequent ownership taxes. > The BMW 5 appears to be significantly cheaper. In NL they start at 56K Euros, the Tesla's at 90K+, but the tax situation is so convoluted that you can't even compare the two at that price point. Which is why you'll see plenty of Tesla's in lease fleets because the monthly figures on that very expensive car compare favorable with the 5 series. > Besides that, Tesla is growing rapidly, BMW is not growing at all. Yes, this is usually the case when companies start out. BMW is just over a century old, if they would be growing at the rate of Tesla they'd be the only manufacturer by now. Just like any new company Tesla will - hopefully - continue to grow for quite a few years but it is my expectation that that growth will plateau at some point in the next couple of years. > In the US, which is a massive market for BMW, they're contracting. See above for comparison between mature market players and start-ups. This is expected, there is a new equilibrium to be found and all existing market players will lose some market to a newcomer operating in their segment. If that would not happen it would indicate that the market as a whole is growing which is not the main driver here. > So when it's 30k S vehicles in Europe next year, it's just going to hurt that much more if you're BMW. No, you have to divide that over all the competing vehicle brands to figure out how much it affects them. And even though the 30K vehicles sold is impressive it's for now not at the level that the likes of BMW and MB are having end-times nightmares. > The car market in the US and Europe is not meaningfully expanding, every Tesla sold is coming directly out of the pocket of BMW, Mercedes, et al. Exactly. But until those numbers reach 100's of thousands of vehicles sold Tesla will be the underdog, and by that point the likes of BMW and MB (and possibly VW) will have a competing product. There is no way that Tesla will be able to absorb the whole car industry without the competition putting up a stiff fight, the way it is playing out right now is that Tesla is taking all the risks and laying the groundwork for electric car acceptance and infrastructure issues. It's a real world example of the innovators dilemma at work and it remains to be seen if the incumbents wake up in time to win that fight. > The ~120,000 Teslas that get sold in 2018 are coming directly at the expense of the German automakers. No, they are coming at the expense of all automakers, maybe with a larger chunk coming out of the German automakers but that's not something that you can say without more proof than I have available right now, what I do know is that both the E class and the 5 series set records in the US in 2017, with both cars individually growing in sales as much as the total number of sales for the Model S.
alkonaut 9y ago
The big brands are in a bit of a dip, converting from a huge fraction being big diesels, back into petrol and more hybrid/electrics. It will be a few years before the likes of VW/Audo/Merc/BMW/Volvo etc have all hybrid and/or electric. The dieselgate combined with the rise of Tesla caught everyone off guard. Also, there are some big subsidies that obviously go mostly to Tesla, and not to the luxry car makers (much). When subsidies disappear (or apply to germans too because they make EV's) then the sales figures can be better compared.
jankotek 9y ago
Subsidized luxury cars....
- r3bl 9y ago
  Subsidized electric cars. Level of luxury doesn't matter at all in this case. The car is electric, and therefore, is subsidized.
jaclaz 9y ago
Here is an old [2016] article about why the Tesla S might not be a "Full-Size Luxury Sedan", which lists arguments I personally find convincing: https://www.autotrader.com/car-news/tesla-people-hate-me-but-the-tesla-model-s-still-isnt-a-full-size-luxury-sedan-258246 https://www.autotrader.com/car-news/tesla-people-hate-me-but... TL;DR, it is roughly same size and offers same leg room as BMW series 5 and Mercedes Class E, besides, given that virtually no BMW or Mercedes is sold in a base equipment version and that the government subsidizing for fully electric cars must be taken into account they are also in an approximately similar price range.
Proven 9y ago
Fkn thieves
c1utch1 9y ago
This is fake news. Comparing Tesla sales to the X6 doesn't make any sense since that's a very niche product that BMW sells. I understand it's the most similar BMW from a design standpoint, but it's probably their lowest volume model. The most comparable would be the 5 series.
OliverJones 9y ago
The Model S (my Model S anyway) is expensive not because it's in the same conspicuous luxury segment as the high end of the Benz or Porsche line, but because it has expensive batteries, and because Tesla is using me, at my expense and with my consent, to gain market experience. It's a product for early adopters. S class Benz products are not that. My presence as a customer in this imagined luxury car price point segment is temporary. When it comes time to replace this Model S, I'm counting on several mass-market EV brands competing with each other. If things keep going the the way they are now, Tesla will have a loyalty advantage in my next purchase choice. But that loyalty advantage probably won't be worth more than a few kilobucks. The Model S is definitely not a plutocratmobile. I really like it. I'm a total fanboy. But there's road noise, and the front seat doors aren't plutocrat-grade comfortable, and the radio, and , and , and. The market analysts putting it in the plutocrat segment based only on price are making a mistake. (Yeah, I know, first world problems. But I'm a proud early adopter. I also had a first-generation Honda Insight hybrid.)
- adventured 9y ago
  I think Tesla will eventually have to decide on a direction for the S, to drift higher or lower in its competitive target, in line with inevitable changes to tax credits. It'll be interesting to see if they try to move down to compete with the BMW 5 category over time. Or whether they attempt to push quality higher, raise prices and fully compete with the next tier up. The Model 3 is very clearly going to stay focused on competing with the BMW 3 (and equivalent from Mercedes et al.) over time. Perhaps Musk will push a new sedan into the mix eventually to more properly align with how the BMW 3, 5, 7 series is set up.
  - cloudwalking 9y ago
    I think you're right, and I bet Tesla will try to compete with the 5 series/E class and not the 7/S. Model S won't have to come down in price very much to fit in with 5/E. Maybe it will lack fit and finish, but it will have much better acceleration and cargo room (and the Tesla brand, and the domestic badge). The Model S will remain pretty competitive in the market.
oblib 9y ago
I know from a long career in the custom car field that this is an amazing milestone for a new US based automotive manufacturer. The "DeLorean" was far behind this when they folded and that attempt got further than any before since the 1930s, and they weren't really a US manufacturer. The "Tucker" didn't come anywhere near the Telsa, and that's probably right behind the DeLorean on the timeline. And even more important is how they are doing it. They're not just building a new car, they're using an entirely different kind of powertrain and drivetrain. This too has been tried before, but again no startup has ever made it this far or advanced the tech used so dramatically. I don't build custom cars anymore but I know what it takes from concept to production and I'm not just impressed with what they've done, I am astonished with how much they've done. At this point, no matter what happens to Tesla, they have changed the industry forever.
- MisterTea 9y ago
  I honestly never thought we would see a from the ground up car manufacturer coalesce into existence without divine intervention. I remember hearing that the barrier of entry to the automobile market is measured in billions per vehicle platform. For a long time I assumed that the only way we'd see another car maker is if a Chinese or Indian manufacturer entered the US Automobile market.
abzolv 9y ago
IMHO Tesla is selling well only because they are first to market, and because of the various EV incentive programs. One will be able to assess Tesla's real market performance when the major manufacturers start selling EVs with comparable mileage capabilities. I would much rather wait to buy an Audi EV SUV or a Mercedes EV SUV in 2019 or 2020, than buy a Tesla Model X right now. By waiting just a year or two, one deals with local dealerships, you have the usual availability of spares and parts for maintenance and body work, plus the already well-known quality and workmanship of an Audi, Mercedes, etc. Tesla is not a bad choice, but when one is able to choose between a Tesla and Mercedes/Audi/BMW/Ford/Toyota/etc with comparable stats, I think most people will stick with the more familiar brand that they can buy from their local dealership.
- Joeri 9y ago
  Comparing today’s tesla against a 2020 competitor is unfair. You have to compare 2020’s tesla. People have been saying tesla will be outcompeted for years and still no real competition has materialized. If the traditional car companies wanted to be in tesla’s market, they already would be.
  - martin_bech 9y ago
    preach! They are announcing concepts, that dont even eclipse, the current offerings. Next year you will probably see a performance Model 3 dual motor, faster than any BMW M3, M4 or Mercedede C AMG or basicly anything, in that class.
- martin_bech 9y ago
  I can certainly see a lot of different possibilities as Audi/Mercedes/Porsche get their EV offerings out, but NONE of them, even the concepts (2019 2020 etc), offer similar performance, or even range to the more than year old Tesla Model S P100D. And when they come out.. they will most likely be competing against the Roadster 2.0 and very likely also an updated Model S. I feel like this is 2007-2009 all over again.. Yeah the iPhone is nice and all, but look at HTC, Blackberry and Nokia.. they are getting their iPhone killers ready...
- 9y ago
PhaseBlue 9y ago
The fact that nobody has mentioned the word torque shows the lack of Tesla owners on these comments. Driving a Tesla can make you forgive all the other shortcomings.
SEJeff 9y ago
Tesla to the rest of the auto manufacturers: I have not yet begun to fight! (in my best John Paul Jones voice)

242 points by evo_9 9y ago

Original source: http://europe.autonews.com/article/20180220/ANE/180219831/tesla-model-s-outsells-german-luxury-flagships-in-europe http://europe.autonews.com/article/20180220/ANE/180219831/te... From the Hacker News Guidelines [1]: "Please submit the original source. If a post reports on something found on another site, submit the latter." [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

sctb 9y ago
Thanks, we've updated the link from https://electrek.co/2018/02/20/tesla-dominates-luxury-segment-europe-gas-powered-german-cars/ https://electrek.co/2018/02/20/tesla-dominates-luxury-segmen....

madengr 9y ago

I suppose premium in Europe is luxury in the USA. Isn’t a 7 series BMW about $140k USD?

xversilov 9y ago
Yeah, nobody buys a 7 series to drive themselves. The 5 series is BMW's driver flagship, IMO.
- sorenjan 9y ago
  Never seen a 7-series that wasn't driven by the owner.
  - dingaling 9y ago
    My local council had one chauffeur-driven for the Mayor and associates until the need for a more 'austere' public image saw it being replaced by a Skoda Octavia ( Jetta / Golf platform ). I think the Mayor of Belfast still rides in the back of a 7.
  - TomMarius 9y ago
    Not the base one, that's true. The "Lang" versions are made for sitting on the back seat.
- ryanlol 9y ago
  This may be true in China, but not most other countries.
- alkonaut 9y ago
  The "I don't drive myself"-version of e.g. the Audi A8 is the A8L. Same for the BMW 7. (At least they used to have e.g. the 740L). But both the S-class and the 7-series are very VERY rare luxury cars. I see thousands of 5-series and E-classes for every 7-series or S-class. The difference in price must be huge in europe compared to the US, because there I saw tons of 7-series and S-class was almost as common as E-class.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    Yes, the price difference is huge. E class is common as a taxi here, base price for a consumer model is 55K Euros, S class nearly double that.
    - alkonaut 9y ago
      What’s the reason (apart from tradition making people think it’s normal) the proce difference between these models is so big in the EU and not in the US?
      - jacquesm 9y ago
        Taxes. I drive a 15 year old car, I would not want to waste money on a new one. My car cost about 14% of what it was new with 55K km on the clock and is in a much cheaper tax bracket than a new one. It's a ridiculous system.
blotto 9y ago
In the US a 7 starts at $83,100 - https://www.google.com/search?q=bmw+7+series+msrp&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1-ab https://www.google.com/search?q=bmw+7+series+msrp&ie=utf-8&o....
- jacquesm 9y ago
  For comparison, in NL they start at 105,000 Euros ($130K), in Germany at 87,000 Euros ($107K).

neverminder 9y ago

The fact that Model S has "S" in it doesn't put it in the same class as Mercedes S, it's more in the class of Mercedes E class / BMW 5er, so this article doesn't make any sense.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
kevincennis 9y ago
Base price (w/o tax credits) of the Model S is very similar to the base price of a 7 series Bimmer. The 5 series is about $30k cheaper to start. Doesn't seem fair to compare sales figures from an $80k car against those from a $50k car. EDIT: Foolishly assumed US prices would roughly translate across markets. I had no idea there was such a large differential in other markets. Consider my comment retracted.
- Xylakant 9y ago
  Base price for the Tesla in Germany seems to be about €69k and the base price for a BMW 7 series about €88k, the 5er Series about €48k (prices according to google) So the Tesla sits pretty right in the middle of the two. One could argue that it doesn’t seem fair to compare the sales figure of a €70k car against those of a € 90k car.
  - adventured 9y ago
    It's not fair to compare a €48k car to a €69k car either then. That's a larger percentage price gap than between €69k and €90k.
    - Xylakant 9y ago
      I didn’t pretend it would be fair. Though in practice, with subsidies etc, the price of a Tesla is much closer to the BMW 5 than it is to the 7 series, especially in the markets where Tesla has it highest sales. Just as a comparison: In Januar 2018, Tesla had 63 newly registered cars in Germany (all models) (1). The BMW 7 series alone had 364. (2) BMW all models 20 759 (1) (1) https://www.kba.de/SharedDocs/Publikationen/DE/Statistik/Fahrzeuge/FZ/2018%20monatlich/FZ8/fz8_201801_pdf.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=5 https://www.kba.de/SharedDocs/Publikationen/DE/Statistik/Fah... (2) https://www.kba.de/DE/Statistik/Fahrzeuge/Neuzulassungen/MonatlicheNeuzulassungen/2018/201801_GV1monatlich/201801_n_top3.html https://www.kba.de/DE/Statistik/Fahrzeuge/Neuzulassungen/Mon...

mtgx 9y ago

Good news. But I'm not happy about this: https://blog.redlock.io/cryptojacking-tesla https://blog.redlock.io/cryptojacking-tesla Remember, we don't even have 1/1000 of the cars on the road as self-driving vehicles, and yet these carmakers' systems are already getting hacked. What we can expect when/if Tesla and other carmakers have 50 million self-driving vehicles each on the road?

scottLobster 9y ago
"The RedLock CSI team immediately reported the incident to Tesla and the issue was quickly rectified." That's the most you can ask for beyond basic competence. There will always be security bugs in software to some extent, the fact that Tesla responded quickly gives me more confidence in them. But I agree with your overall point, at some point some hacker is going to kill people with a hacked car (probably not a Tesla), and it's going to take lots of dead bodies and legislation for congress to pass appropriate standards for security. Hopefully we'll reach a point where computer security in cars is regulated the same as seat belts and air bags.
- Consultant32452 9y ago
  Once the state actors have hacked the AI drivers/cameras they will be able to track and kill just about anyone anywhere with them.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - tdb7893 9y ago
    It'll actually probably be hard to do it unnoticed. My guess is that self driving accidents will be heavily scrutinized to try to figure out why it happened. Also the government already can kill pretty much anyone at any time with various means
    - jrs95 9y ago
      But once it’s at scale, it will either be common enough or it could be made to be common enough that there’s a news story about it every other week. At that point, it’s not too difficult to kill specific people in accidents without raising suspicion. This is assuming some amount of cooperation amongst these corporations and state actors, though. And tbh you could probably make much better covert domestic assassination drones. No explosions, no noise, just a poison or something. Maybe even just carbon monoxide.

mtmail 9y ago

Raw data. It doesn't match the number listed in the article exactly but the same trend. http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/tesla/tesla-model-s/ http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/tesla/tesla-... 2017: 16.026, 2016: 11.564: 2015: 15.169 http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/Mercedes-Benz/Mercedes-Benz-S-Class/ http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/Mercedes-Ben... 2017: 14.757, 2016: 14.967, 2015: 16.583 http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/mercedes-benz/mercedes-benz-e-class/ http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/mercedes-ben... 2017: 127.638, 2016: 99.494, 2015: 84.771

cat199 9y ago

I hear that in 5 years everyone will be using tablets and there will be no more laptops or desktops either... oh wait, it's not 2013 anymore.. never mind.

jacquesm 9y ago

Guess what? More Teslas are being sold than Ferrari's as well. This is an apples-to-oranges comparison, every German brand that sells cars in this segment outsells Tesla 5:1 or more. Sales for 2017: Tesla Model S: < 20K BMW 5 series: 109K MB E-class: 125K Note that the EU tax situation for vehicles is very complicated and can cause the price to change so much that a Tesla model S can be much cheaper, about equal or more expensive to a BMW 5 series or E class depending on the country you are looking at.

adventured 9y ago
What's the average selling price of the BMW 5 versus the Tesla S? The BMW 5 appears to be significantly cheaper. You reference that and claim an exception based on taxes but don't provide any actual information to clarify it. Besides that, Tesla is growing rapidly, BMW is not growing at all. In the US, which is a massive market for BMW, they're contracting. So when it's 30k S vehicles in Europe next year, it's just going to hurt that much more if you're BMW. The car market in the US and Europe is not meaningfully expanding, every Tesla sold is coming directly out of the pocket of BMW, Mercedes, et al. The ~120,000 Teslas that get sold in 2018 are coming directly at the expense of the German automakers.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  > What's the average selling price of the BMW 5 versus the Tesla S? The average price doesn't matter. The actual price matters and this differs from country to country to such an extent that it will be a large factor in the decision making process. For 2017 NL and Norway for instance were big sellers for Tesla because of huge tax breaks on purchase and subsequent ownership taxes. > The BMW 5 appears to be significantly cheaper. In NL they start at 56K Euros, the Tesla's at 90K+, but the tax situation is so convoluted that you can't even compare the two at that price point. Which is why you'll see plenty of Tesla's in lease fleets because the monthly figures on that very expensive car compare favorable with the 5 series. > Besides that, Tesla is growing rapidly, BMW is not growing at all. Yes, this is usually the case when companies start out. BMW is just over a century old, if they would be growing at the rate of Tesla they'd be the only manufacturer by now. Just like any new company Tesla will - hopefully - continue to grow for quite a few years but it is my expectation that that growth will plateau at some point in the next couple of years. > In the US, which is a massive market for BMW, they're contracting. See above for comparison between mature market players and start-ups. This is expected, there is a new equilibrium to be found and all existing market players will lose some market to a newcomer operating in their segment. If that would not happen it would indicate that the market as a whole is growing which is not the main driver here. > So when it's 30k S vehicles in Europe next year, it's just going to hurt that much more if you're BMW. No, you have to divide that over all the competing vehicle brands to figure out how much it affects them. And even though the 30K vehicles sold is impressive it's for now not at the level that the likes of BMW and MB are having end-times nightmares. > The car market in the US and Europe is not meaningfully expanding, every Tesla sold is coming directly out of the pocket of BMW, Mercedes, et al. Exactly. But until those numbers reach 100's of thousands of vehicles sold Tesla will be the underdog, and by that point the likes of BMW and MB (and possibly VW) will have a competing product. There is no way that Tesla will be able to absorb the whole car industry without the competition putting up a stiff fight, the way it is playing out right now is that Tesla is taking all the risks and laying the groundwork for electric car acceptance and infrastructure issues. It's a real world example of the innovators dilemma at work and it remains to be seen if the incumbents wake up in time to win that fight. > The ~120,000 Teslas that get sold in 2018 are coming directly at the expense of the German automakers. No, they are coming at the expense of all automakers, maybe with a larger chunk coming out of the German automakers but that's not something that you can say without more proof than I have available right now, what I do know is that both the E class and the 5 series set records in the US in 2017, with both cars individually growing in sales as much as the total number of sales for the Model S.

alkonaut 9y ago

The big brands are in a bit of a dip, converting from a huge fraction being big diesels, back into petrol and more hybrid/electrics. It will be a few years before the likes of VW/Audo/Merc/BMW/Volvo etc have all hybrid and/or electric. The dieselgate combined with the rise of Tesla caught everyone off guard. Also, there are some big subsidies that obviously go mostly to Tesla, and not to the luxry car makers (much). When subsidies disappear (or apply to germans too because they make EV's) then the sales figures can be better compared.

jankotek 9y ago

Subsidized luxury cars....

r3bl 9y ago
Subsidized electric cars. Level of luxury doesn't matter at all in this case. The car is electric, and therefore, is subsidized.

jaclaz 9y ago

Here is an old [2016] article about why the Tesla S might not be a "Full-Size Luxury Sedan", which lists arguments I personally find convincing: https://www.autotrader.com/car-news/tesla-people-hate-me-but-the-tesla-model-s-still-isnt-a-full-size-luxury-sedan-258246 https://www.autotrader.com/car-news/tesla-people-hate-me-but... TL;DR, it is roughly same size and offers same leg room as BMW series 5 and Mercedes Class E, besides, given that virtually no BMW or Mercedes is sold in a base equipment version and that the government subsidizing for fully electric cars must be taken into account they are also in an approximately similar price range.

Proven 9y ago

Fkn thieves

c1utch1 9y ago

This is fake news. Comparing Tesla sales to the X6 doesn't make any sense since that's a very niche product that BMW sells. I understand it's the most similar BMW from a design standpoint, but it's probably their lowest volume model. The most comparable would be the 5 series.

OliverJones 9y ago

The Model S (my Model S anyway) is expensive not because it's in the same conspicuous luxury segment as the high end of the Benz or Porsche line, but because it has expensive batteries, and because Tesla is using me, at my expense and with my consent, to gain market experience. It's a product for early adopters. S class Benz products are not that. My presence as a customer in this imagined luxury car price point segment is temporary. When it comes time to replace this Model S, I'm counting on several mass-market EV brands competing with each other. If things keep going the the way they are now, Tesla will have a loyalty advantage in my next purchase choice. But that loyalty advantage probably won't be worth more than a few kilobucks. The Model S is definitely not a plutocratmobile. I really like it. I'm a total fanboy. But there's road noise, and the front seat doors aren't plutocrat-grade comfortable, and the radio, and , and , and. The market analysts putting it in the plutocrat segment based only on price are making a mistake. (Yeah, I know, first world problems. But I'm a proud early adopter. I also had a first-generation Honda Insight hybrid.)

adventured 9y ago
I think Tesla will eventually have to decide on a direction for the S, to drift higher or lower in its competitive target, in line with inevitable changes to tax credits. It'll be interesting to see if they try to move down to compete with the BMW 5 category over time. Or whether they attempt to push quality higher, raise prices and fully compete with the next tier up. The Model 3 is very clearly going to stay focused on competing with the BMW 3 (and equivalent from Mercedes et al.) over time. Perhaps Musk will push a new sedan into the mix eventually to more properly align with how the BMW 3, 5, 7 series is set up.
- cloudwalking 9y ago
  I think you're right, and I bet Tesla will try to compete with the 5 series/E class and not the 7/S. Model S won't have to come down in price very much to fit in with 5/E. Maybe it will lack fit and finish, but it will have much better acceleration and cargo room (and the Tesla brand, and the domestic badge). The Model S will remain pretty competitive in the market.

oblib 9y ago

I know from a long career in the custom car field that this is an amazing milestone for a new US based automotive manufacturer. The "DeLorean" was far behind this when they folded and that attempt got further than any before since the 1930s, and they weren't really a US manufacturer. The "Tucker" didn't come anywhere near the Telsa, and that's probably right behind the DeLorean on the timeline. And even more important is how they are doing it. They're not just building a new car, they're using an entirely different kind of powertrain and drivetrain. This too has been tried before, but again no startup has ever made it this far or advanced the tech used so dramatically. I don't build custom cars anymore but I know what it takes from concept to production and I'm not just impressed with what they've done, I am astonished with how much they've done. At this point, no matter what happens to Tesla, they have changed the industry forever.

MisterTea 9y ago
I honestly never thought we would see a from the ground up car manufacturer coalesce into existence without divine intervention. I remember hearing that the barrier of entry to the automobile market is measured in billions per vehicle platform. For a long time I assumed that the only way we'd see another car maker is if a Chinese or Indian manufacturer entered the US Automobile market.

abzolv 9y ago

IMHO Tesla is selling well only because they are first to market, and because of the various EV incentive programs. One will be able to assess Tesla's real market performance when the major manufacturers start selling EVs with comparable mileage capabilities. I would much rather wait to buy an Audi EV SUV or a Mercedes EV SUV in 2019 or 2020, than buy a Tesla Model X right now. By waiting just a year or two, one deals with local dealerships, you have the usual availability of spares and parts for maintenance and body work, plus the already well-known quality and workmanship of an Audi, Mercedes, etc. Tesla is not a bad choice, but when one is able to choose between a Tesla and Mercedes/Audi/BMW/Ford/Toyota/etc with comparable stats, I think most people will stick with the more familiar brand that they can buy from their local dealership.

Joeri 9y ago
Comparing today’s tesla against a 2020 competitor is unfair. You have to compare 2020’s tesla. People have been saying tesla will be outcompeted for years and still no real competition has materialized. If the traditional car companies wanted to be in tesla’s market, they already would be.
- martin_bech 9y ago
  preach! They are announcing concepts, that dont even eclipse, the current offerings. Next year you will probably see a performance Model 3 dual motor, faster than any BMW M3, M4 or Mercedede C AMG or basicly anything, in that class.
martin_bech 9y ago
I can certainly see a lot of different possibilities as Audi/Mercedes/Porsche get their EV offerings out, but NONE of them, even the concepts (2019 2020 etc), offer similar performance, or even range to the more than year old Tesla Model S P100D. And when they come out.. they will most likely be competing against the Roadster 2.0 and very likely also an updated Model S. I feel like this is 2007-2009 all over again.. Yeah the iPhone is nice and all, but look at HTC, Blackberry and Nokia.. they are getting their iPhone killers ready...
9y ago

PhaseBlue 9y ago

The fact that nobody has mentioned the word torque shows the lack of Tesla owners on these comments. Driving a Tesla can make you forgive all the other shortcomings.

SEJeff 9y ago

Tesla to the rest of the auto manufacturers: I have not yet begun to fight! (in my best John Paul Jones voice)