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> Yes. I am not sure how you can know that. I am actually sure Apple would have lost some market but not much and there could have been stuff they could do to

> Yes. I am not sure how you can know that. I am actually sure Apple would have lost some market but not much and there could have been stuff they could do to let it happen rather than now just giving up everything to any authoritarian government. Maybe Apple could have gained some respect and then market share if they would have stood firm. With this new management, Apple has become just focused on business (income) not what they were known to be passionate about.

mattnewton 9y ago
We know that because China has banned western tech companies in the past when they don’t play ball. https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/042915/why-facebook-banned-china.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/042915/why-f... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_China Also twitter and Snapchat.
- dwringer 9y ago
  As I understand it, Google actually had been cooperating with China's censorship requests, but didn't like it, and Google made the decision themselves[1] to relocate offices [ED: web search was moved but Google maintains offices in mainland China] to Hong Kong rather than continue self-censorship. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/mar/23/google-china-censorship-hong-kong https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/mar/23/google-ch...
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    Google didn't "relocate" to Hong Kong, their offices in Wudaokou kept running, they just shutdown their Mainland-based webserver.
    - mattnewton 9y ago
      And redirected it to Hong Kong, which was then blocked, because they weren’t playing ball anymore.
      - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
        Yes, but google still has other business in china (android, selling ads to Chinese customers). They sacrificed their web search business, but not everything else.
        dwringer 9y ago
        I apologize for my misleading statements. From my amateur reading of the coverage at the time, I had no idea of this; I appreciate the additional information.
        sidibe 9y ago
        I'm pretty sure nothing Google-related works in China. Youtube/search/gmail etc. are all blocked. They have Android phones but no Google services on them. They do sell ads there but to companies targeting Chinese people outside of China.
        seanmcdirmid 9y ago
        They just recently opened a new office in Shenzhen, so something is going on, but I mostly agree.
        yorwba 9y ago
        There are a few services that work. Google Translate is available, and you can connect to gmail using an email client instead of the website.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
- mr_spothawk 9y ago
  China banned their citizens from accessing a network. That's very different than banning a famous, physical product.
seanmcdirmid 9y ago
> Maybe Apple could have gained some respect and then market share if they would have stood firm. The Chinese government doesn't play that respect game. Apple's stock holders also would never allow Apple to exit China without a huge hit (~50%) in their valuation. It isn't hard to see that Apple is stuck in China whether they are passionate about it or not.
- prewett 9y ago
  We don't know whether APPL shareholders would be interested in Apple exiting Mainland China. Apple needs to act in the shareholders' interest, but I don't think it necessarily has to act to maximize profits. Also, Apple could have a shareholder vote on the matter; perhaps the majority of shareholders prefer that Apple maintain its reputation for privacy over its profits. Perhaps exiting Mainland China would not affect Apple's profits much--given that I couldn't walk into the Beijing Apple Store without being accosted by sellers of presumably illegally imported iPhones from Hong Kong to avoid the 25% luxury tax, perhaps Apple's China profits would simply morph into Apple's HK or Singapore profits. Perhaps Apple leaving China would make them that much more desirable--the ultimate luxury item is the one you can't get.
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    The pricing between HK and Beijing is much reduced these days, definitely a lot more than it was when the first Apple stores opened (you can compare prices between apple.com/cn and apple.com/hk if you don't believe me). The days of the yellow cows are mostly over, and have been on decline for a few years now (they no longer hang out at the Sanlitun Apple store as of 2016, for example). I don't think ANY company can afford to leave China these days. Google only got away with it because they weren't making much on search in China.
landryraccoon 9y ago
China was happy to ban Facebook and Google. Google's market share in China plummeted from 37% to 2% over 4 years, and is still falling there. The evidence certainly seems to suggest that China's government is willing to ban foreign tech companies for the benefit of the ruling party. Is there any evidence the Chinese government would hesitate to ban Apple if Apple undermined their authority? I think there's a moral case for Apple refusing to serve China, but I think they would have to face the likely consequence that China would simply kick them out of the country.

mattnewton 9y ago

We know that because China has banned western tech companies in the past when they don’t play ball. https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/042915/why-facebook-banned-china.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/042915/why-f... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_China Also twitter and Snapchat.

dwringer 9y ago
As I understand it, Google actually had been cooperating with China's censorship requests, but didn't like it, and Google made the decision themselves[1] to relocate offices [ED: web search was moved but Google maintains offices in mainland China] to Hong Kong rather than continue self-censorship. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/mar/23/google-china-censorship-hong-kong https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/mar/23/google-ch...
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  Google didn't "relocate" to Hong Kong, their offices in Wudaokou kept running, they just shutdown their Mainland-based webserver.
  - mattnewton 9y ago
    And redirected it to Hong Kong, which was then blocked, because they weren’t playing ball anymore.
    - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
      Yes, but google still has other business in china (android, selling ads to Chinese customers). They sacrificed their web search business, but not everything else.
      - dwringer 9y ago
        I apologize for my misleading statements. From my amateur reading of the coverage at the time, I had no idea of this; I appreciate the additional information.
      - sidibe 9y ago
        I'm pretty sure nothing Google-related works in China. Youtube/search/gmail etc. are all blocked. They have Android phones but no Google services on them. They do sell ads there but to companies targeting Chinese people outside of China.
        seanmcdirmid 9y ago
        They just recently opened a new office in Shenzhen, so something is going on, but I mostly agree.
        yorwba 9y ago
        There are a few services that work. Google Translate is available, and you can connect to gmail using an email client instead of the website.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
mr_spothawk 9y ago
China banned their citizens from accessing a network. That's very different than banning a famous, physical product.

seanmcdirmid 9y ago

> Maybe Apple could have gained some respect and then market share if they would have stood firm. The Chinese government doesn't play that respect game. Apple's stock holders also would never allow Apple to exit China without a huge hit (~50%) in their valuation. It isn't hard to see that Apple is stuck in China whether they are passionate about it or not.

prewett 9y ago
We don't know whether APPL shareholders would be interested in Apple exiting Mainland China. Apple needs to act in the shareholders' interest, but I don't think it necessarily has to act to maximize profits. Also, Apple could have a shareholder vote on the matter; perhaps the majority of shareholders prefer that Apple maintain its reputation for privacy over its profits. Perhaps exiting Mainland China would not affect Apple's profits much--given that I couldn't walk into the Beijing Apple Store without being accosted by sellers of presumably illegally imported iPhones from Hong Kong to avoid the 25% luxury tax, perhaps Apple's China profits would simply morph into Apple's HK or Singapore profits. Perhaps Apple leaving China would make them that much more desirable--the ultimate luxury item is the one you can't get.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  The pricing between HK and Beijing is much reduced these days, definitely a lot more than it was when the first Apple stores opened (you can compare prices between apple.com/cn and apple.com/hk if you don't believe me). The days of the yellow cows are mostly over, and have been on decline for a few years now (they no longer hang out at the Sanlitun Apple store as of 2016, for example). I don't think ANY company can afford to leave China these days. Google only got away with it because they weren't making much on search in China.

landryraccoon 9y ago

China was happy to ban Facebook and Google. Google's market share in China plummeted from 37% to 2% over 4 years, and is still falling there. The evidence certainly seems to suggest that China's government is willing to ban foreign tech companies for the benefit of the ruling party. Is there any evidence the Chinese government would hesitate to ban Apple if Apple undermined their authority? I think there's a moral case for Apple refusing to serve China, but I think they would have to face the likely consequence that China would simply kick them out of the country.