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I was shadowbanned for getting downvoted too much for saying James Damore had terrible sexist opinions and should have been fired. Hackernews is predominantly

by door3 9y ago

I was shadowbanned for getting downvoted too much for saying James Damore had terrible sexist opinions and should have been fired. Hackernews is predominantly right wing & conservative.

gameswithgo 9y ago
You probably just weren't civil enough? I've been shadowbanned but it is because I lost my shit and became rude. I mean it is understandable to lose one's shit here sometimes but also understandable to not allow it.
- door3 9y ago
  Maybe, but really the point isn't about me. The point is the dominant opinion on Hackernews is "James Damore was right!" or at least "James Damore made some good points", which, whether you believe it or not, is absolutely a right-wing, conservative opinion, not the kind of "liberal SV PC culture" that is supposedly dominant and oppressive.
  - dang 9y ago
    Every side thinks HN is dominated by the opposite side. This is as reliable as clockwork. But the truth is boringly tautological: on divisive issues, the community is divided, like any sufficient sample of society at large would be. People with strong views simply notice the comments they dislike much more strongly. And sometimes they pass around links to their friends to 'prove' it—which proves nothing, of course, but does strongly reinforce their perception. Once reinforced, these perceptions seem not to change. On HN the divisions are exacerbated by this being so international a community. Only a third, last I checked, is in the US, and only a small minority in SV. So what we're all encountering here is not just polarization in the US, but much disagreement across national and cultural divides. p.s. Unless I'm mistaken about the account, we didn't ban you. Nor have we shadowbanned accounts for years (except new accounts that appear to be trolling or spamming). When an account has been around for a while, we tell people we banned them. --- Edit: while I'm thinking about this... Subtler factors exacerbate these perceptions too. HN isn't siloed—we have no subreddits, no following/blocking—just one big place where everyone sees the same things. Because of that, we're all more likely on HN to encounter comments from people we don't normally mix with, except perhaps on the battlefield. Reading what the 'other side' posts is not fun; it's painful. It gets right in your face and feels like being attacked. It seems to take only a few cases of this before it overflows into one's image of the site itself. That association makes sense emotionally: I come to this place, I feel pain and anger, therefore this is a hateful place. But it's also just what one would expect from the numbers, which is why the reaction is so clockwork-reliable, as I said above. The people with opposite views to yours are feeling just the same anger and pain. We see this not only about politics, but about programming languages, large companies, one's own work, and everything else people feel strongly about. We're all in one of those tricky spots where human feelings and statistics don't go well together, and for the most part don't realize it.
    - jstewartmobile 9y ago
      I think it's more a case of everyone being so entrenched in ideological warfare that we've moved from discussion to brand management--downvoting wrongthink rather than engaging with it.
      - dang 9y ago
        I'm not sure if I was clear earlier, but the simplest explanation for why you get downvoted is that you have a history of posting flamebait. When an account does enough of this it gets subject to software penalties as well. If you want to commit to using HN as intended, which means scrupulously avoiding flamebait, snark, flamewars, name-calling, and all the rest of it—then you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and let us know.
        jstewartmobile 9y ago
        I don't know what the averages are, but reviewing my comment history, seems to be more upvotes than downvotes. I don't post comments on HN to stir the pot. I post comments on HN in the hope of getting other perspectives. A comment with a downvote and a reply is more valuable than a comment with upvotes and no replies. It's not like I can redeem HN points for cash and prizes. I think I can do an OK job of not being an asshole, but I honestly have no idea what is or isn't going to piss people off or classify as flamebait here. So, if those are the stakes now, I will just have to accept my place on the shitlist.
        eadmund 9y ago
        > I think I can do an OK job of not being an asshole, but I honestly have no idea what is or isn't going to piss people off or classify as flamebait here. I wish that there were some sort of metamoderation system. I downvote the mods whenever they post about abusing their power, but I don't know if that even has an effect, or if moderators' posts are immune from downvotes.
        9y ago
  - rhapsodic 9y ago
    >The point is the dominant opinion on Hackernews is "James Damore was right!" or at least "James Damore made some good points", Uh, that's not my impression. My impression is that the pro-Damore posters say he should not have been fired for the views he expressed. And they're not the dominant opinion; rather it seems neither the pro- or anti-Damore opinions are dominant.
    - door3 9y ago
      I recall several articles defending the “women are biologically inferior at tech, it’s science” position on the front page.
      - lopmotr 9y ago
        Were they actually saying "inferior" or "less interested"?Those are completely different things. One is supported by evidence and the other isn't, as far as I know. Even if it isn't, what's wrong with discussing an article about it? Not everything on HN is textbook-level confirmed facts.
alexashka 9y ago
Maybe it's the strange notion that having an opinion that doesn't hurt anyone should lead to getting fired that's the problem... The irony is not obvious so here it is: You want Damore to be ex-communicated from Google, for having an opinion you disagree with. People of HackerNews have decided to ex-communicate YOU, for having an opinion they disagree with. (Assuming that's what happened on HackerNews, and not that you were voicing your opinion in a manner that's counter-productive) Do you see how you're crying about the very same behaviour you're all for, when it's somebody else? The double-irony is that you're allowed to post on HackerNews again, and Damore is not back at google!
- door3 9y ago
  My values aren't "everyone should be able to say everything in every space everywhere without any consequence!", and I don't think even the most radical free speech libertarian would believe that. In either hackernews or at Google, if you started arguing for Holocaust denial, you can bet you wouldn't last long, no matter how hard you defend yourself with "free speech". In all spaces, there are rules of acceptable and unacceptable discourse. I am no more pro or anti free speech than anyone else, I just have different ideas of what the boundaries of that speech should be. What concerns me most is equality of all people, and liberation of all people from systems of oppression. James Damore furthered an oppressive system (patriarchy) by perpetuating sexist ideas that attacked and hurt women at Google. With all the stuff about free speech or whatever, the opinion that he wanted to advocate for was nothing more than old school sexism: women are on average worse engineers because of their biology, so any discrepancies of outcome is a result of their natural inferiority, not broken social and economic structures. Is that really a valuable, constructive opinion that should be inside the marketplace of ideas at Google? What kind of company culture does that lead to? One in which discrepancies and injustices can be rationalized and justified through "innate differences" and where women who experience sexism and discrimination would feel more uncomfortable expressing their concerns.
  - alexashka 9y ago
    The justice warrior echo chamber is strong... It's hard to reply to justice warrior-talk without being incredibly condescending. Can you slow down for one minute and define what you mean by 'equality of all people'? We have 2 genders, not 1, might be a good starting point. Let's follow that up with how you know what all people want out of life, that you want them liberated from systems of whatever? Or you're interested in doing for people, what they don't want done to them? How does that work with liberating them from oppression exactly?
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

by door3 9y ago

I was shadowbanned for getting downvoted too much for saying James Damore had terrible sexist opinions and should have been fired. Hackernews is predominantly right wing & conservative.

gameswithgo 9y ago

You probably just weren't civil enough? I've been shadowbanned but it is because I lost my shit and became rude. I mean it is understandable to lose one's shit here sometimes but also understandable to not allow it.

door3 9y ago
Maybe, but really the point isn't about me. The point is the dominant opinion on Hackernews is "James Damore was right!" or at least "James Damore made some good points", which, whether you believe it or not, is absolutely a right-wing, conservative opinion, not the kind of "liberal SV PC culture" that is supposedly dominant and oppressive.
- dang 9y ago
  Every side thinks HN is dominated by the opposite side. This is as reliable as clockwork. But the truth is boringly tautological: on divisive issues, the community is divided, like any sufficient sample of society at large would be. People with strong views simply notice the comments they dislike much more strongly. And sometimes they pass around links to their friends to 'prove' it—which proves nothing, of course, but does strongly reinforce their perception. Once reinforced, these perceptions seem not to change. On HN the divisions are exacerbated by this being so international a community. Only a third, last I checked, is in the US, and only a small minority in SV. So what we're all encountering here is not just polarization in the US, but much disagreement across national and cultural divides. p.s. Unless I'm mistaken about the account, we didn't ban you. Nor have we shadowbanned accounts for years (except new accounts that appear to be trolling or spamming). When an account has been around for a while, we tell people we banned them. --- Edit: while I'm thinking about this... Subtler factors exacerbate these perceptions too. HN isn't siloed—we have no subreddits, no following/blocking—just one big place where everyone sees the same things. Because of that, we're all more likely on HN to encounter comments from people we don't normally mix with, except perhaps on the battlefield. Reading what the 'other side' posts is not fun; it's painful. It gets right in your face and feels like being attacked. It seems to take only a few cases of this before it overflows into one's image of the site itself. That association makes sense emotionally: I come to this place, I feel pain and anger, therefore this is a hateful place. But it's also just what one would expect from the numbers, which is why the reaction is so clockwork-reliable, as I said above. The people with opposite views to yours are feeling just the same anger and pain. We see this not only about politics, but about programming languages, large companies, one's own work, and everything else people feel strongly about. We're all in one of those tricky spots where human feelings and statistics don't go well together, and for the most part don't realize it.
  - jstewartmobile 9y ago
    I think it's more a case of everyone being so entrenched in ideological warfare that we've moved from discussion to brand management--downvoting wrongthink rather than engaging with it.
    - dang 9y ago
      I'm not sure if I was clear earlier, but the simplest explanation for why you get downvoted is that you have a history of posting flamebait. When an account does enough of this it gets subject to software penalties as well. If you want to commit to using HN as intended, which means scrupulously avoiding flamebait, snark, flamewars, name-calling, and all the rest of it—then you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and let us know.
      - jstewartmobile 9y ago
        I don't know what the averages are, but reviewing my comment history, seems to be more upvotes than downvotes. I don't post comments on HN to stir the pot. I post comments on HN in the hope of getting other perspectives. A comment with a downvote and a reply is more valuable than a comment with upvotes and no replies. It's not like I can redeem HN points for cash and prizes. I think I can do an OK job of not being an asshole, but I honestly have no idea what is or isn't going to piss people off or classify as flamebait here. So, if those are the stakes now, I will just have to accept my place on the shitlist.
        eadmund 9y ago
        > I think I can do an OK job of not being an asshole, but I honestly have no idea what is or isn't going to piss people off or classify as flamebait here. I wish that there were some sort of metamoderation system. I downvote the mods whenever they post about abusing their power, but I don't know if that even has an effect, or if moderators' posts are immune from downvotes.
        9y ago
- rhapsodic 9y ago
  >The point is the dominant opinion on Hackernews is "James Damore was right!" or at least "James Damore made some good points", Uh, that's not my impression. My impression is that the pro-Damore posters say he should not have been fired for the views he expressed. And they're not the dominant opinion; rather it seems neither the pro- or anti-Damore opinions are dominant.
  - door3 9y ago
    I recall several articles defending the “women are biologically inferior at tech, it’s science” position on the front page.
    - lopmotr 9y ago
      Were they actually saying "inferior" or "less interested"?Those are completely different things. One is supported by evidence and the other isn't, as far as I know. Even if it isn't, what's wrong with discussing an article about it? Not everything on HN is textbook-level confirmed facts.

alexashka 9y ago

Maybe it's the strange notion that having an opinion that doesn't hurt anyone should lead to getting fired that's the problem... The irony is not obvious so here it is: You want Damore to be ex-communicated from Google, for having an opinion you disagree with. People of HackerNews have decided to ex-communicate YOU, for having an opinion they disagree with. (Assuming that's what happened on HackerNews, and not that you were voicing your opinion in a manner that's counter-productive) Do you see how you're crying about the very same behaviour you're all for, when it's somebody else? The double-irony is that you're allowed to post on HackerNews again, and Damore is not back at google!

door3 9y ago
My values aren't "everyone should be able to say everything in every space everywhere without any consequence!", and I don't think even the most radical free speech libertarian would believe that. In either hackernews or at Google, if you started arguing for Holocaust denial, you can bet you wouldn't last long, no matter how hard you defend yourself with "free speech". In all spaces, there are rules of acceptable and unacceptable discourse. I am no more pro or anti free speech than anyone else, I just have different ideas of what the boundaries of that speech should be. What concerns me most is equality of all people, and liberation of all people from systems of oppression. James Damore furthered an oppressive system (patriarchy) by perpetuating sexist ideas that attacked and hurt women at Google. With all the stuff about free speech or whatever, the opinion that he wanted to advocate for was nothing more than old school sexism: women are on average worse engineers because of their biology, so any discrepancies of outcome is a result of their natural inferiority, not broken social and economic structures. Is that really a valuable, constructive opinion that should be inside the marketplace of ideas at Google? What kind of company culture does that lead to? One in which discrepancies and injustices can be rationalized and justified through "innate differences" and where women who experience sexism and discrimination would feel more uncomfortable expressing their concerns.
- alexashka 9y ago
  The justice warrior echo chamber is strong... It's hard to reply to justice warrior-talk without being incredibly condescending. Can you slow down for one minute and define what you mean by 'equality of all people'? We have 2 genders, not 1, might be a good starting point. Let's follow that up with how you know what all people want out of life, that you want them liberated from systems of whatever? Or you're interested in doing for people, what they don't want done to them? How does that work with liberating them from oppression exactly?

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]