4 ms·

America is one of the biggest (land-mass wise) and most diverse places in the world. There are tons of experiences to have. Treating America or the American exp

by jimmy1 9y ago

America is one of the biggest (land-mass wise) and most diverse places in the world. There are tons of experiences to have. Treating America or the American experience as some cohesive whole or some shared experience is the most repeated fallacy in these types of conversations. There are cities in America with public healthcare, and then there are cities that don't. There are cities that value greenways, public transportation, and diverse cultures, there are cities that value your freedom of transportation (i.e. a car) over everything. There are cities that have great public shelters and food kitchens and then there are cities where everyone opens their door and every place of worship tends to be a food kitchen, and then there are, of course, cities that don't do much of either. And while there isn't an explicit "free" education, there are hundreds of universities that will fully subsidize your cost of education (Harvard being one prominent example). > Generally people in those countries don't need to worry about food, shelter, healthcare. No matter what poor choices they make in life these things will be provided. This purported truthism is categorically false however, when your nation suffers an influx of new immigration, refugees, etc, such as what America has experienced most of it's existence. . Then all of a sudden, the money in the public coffers starts to run dry -- Greece is a great example -- the government almost went broke (well, I should say, went more broke) footing the bills for all the refugees streaming into the country. I am not saying that this is a bad thing -- good on them and bless them for that -- but at the end of the day, people's attitudes and perceptions on their perfect little "my government takes care of us" story gets changed when all of a sudden your government no longer has the means to take care of everyone. And since Europe is much closer to many of the conflicts happening in the world ATM, many countries in the Eurozone are seeing first hand the effect of this.

MereInterest 9y ago
> There are cities in America with public healthcare, and then there are cities that don't. Could you expand on this? I was unaware of any cities in the US with public healthcare.
- MrLeap 9y ago
  I live in a small town north of Kansas City, MO that pays for ambulance rides if you can't. Not exactly NHS, but it's been a huge help to people I know. There are also several free clinics in KC and STL. In my area, there's two "tiers" of healthcare. Urgent Care for 99% of everything worth getting help for, and emergency rooms for a crisis. Most people I know in this town can't afford primary care physicians. I've never heard anyone talk about going to a free clinic, so I can't speak to their quality.
  - FireBeyond 9y ago
    > I live in a small town north of Kansas City, MO that pays for ambulance rides if you can't. Eh, as a EMS provider, there's a very different logic in play there. In my County's Medic One system, the transport is free, the rationale being that it's already been paid for by property taxes levied specifically to have these services available, and that people believed then being charged for use of the service would be "double-dipping". While I wouldn't discount the importance of said service, I would dispute that it forms any meaningful form of "public healthcare" (even the private ambulances in the county charge $600+$16/mile, not cheap, but dwarfed the minute you cross the threshold into that ER).
yequalsx 9y ago
America is one of the biggest (land-mass wise) and most diverse places in the world. There are tons of experiences to have. There are no places in the U.S. that provide universal healthcare. There are no places in the U.S. in which public universities don't charge a lot in comparison to the OECD countries. There are no places in the U.S. that guarantee adequate food, or shelter. There are private organizations that do provide food and shelter but relying on the kindness of others is not a guarantee. The per capita GDP level in the U.S. is sufficiently high to provide universal healthcare, free higher education, basic shelter, and food needs. This is indisputable. Mentioning immigration is a red herring since the influx of immigrants to the U.S. has not brought down the per capita GDP enough to claim that these things are unaffordable.
- jchb 9y ago
  The issue of immigration is not just about whether there is enough money, it is also about how willing people are to pay. The states with the best public welfare systems, usually considered to be those in Scandinavia, have historically had very homogenous societies. Often a strong connection is drawn between the homogeneity of a society and the willingness to pay tax ( * ). Note that by homogeneity we do not only speak about peoples origin and looks, but perhaps more importantly about what values they hold. If you have a constant large influx of immigrants from diverse cultures, such as the US has had throughout its history, you also have a greater difference of values. ( * )Although I grant that those that argue for this usually lean to the conservative side of the political spectrum, for example David Goodhart: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2004/feb/24/race.eu https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2004/feb/24/race.eu)
  - yequalsx 9y ago
    I was responding to jimmy1's post. In there jimmy1 specifically mentions cost of providing for immigrants. ... story gets changed when all of a sudden your government no longer has the means to take care of everyone. Since the per capita GDP of the U.S. is not declining so much to immigration then mentioning immigration is not relevant. It's a red herring. I can only guess as to the reason why jimmy1 made such an irrelevant point but I can't prove that my guess is correct. Thus I'll settle for just pointing out that it's a red herring and an argumentative fallacy.
point78 9y ago
Wrong on so many levels. Give an example of one city where healthcare is completely free or public transportation is 5 stars (train, bus, subway function and are free to ride) or a city with universal basic income or a city where higher education is 100% free.
- matwood 9y ago
  > public transportation is 5 stars (train, bus, subway function and are free to ride) Portland had an area inside the city where this was the case, but it looks like it was canceled. :( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fareless_Square https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fareless_Square > a city where higher education is 100% free. GA has been offering almost free to completely free college with lottery money for a long time to residents. http://www.gpb.org/blogs/georgia-at-work/2017/05/22/want-free-college-tuition-georgia-here%E2%80%99s-how-you-can-get-it http://www.gpb.org/blogs/georgia-at-work/2017/05/22/want-fre... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOPE_Scholarship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOPE_Scholarship
- jimmy1 9y ago
  Before I answer, can we at least level set that your your criteria / standards are pretty extreme? Unless you mean each individually and not the sum of them together -- but if you did mean the sum -- I want to live in this utopia you have in mind that has 100% this and 5 star that! I don't think that place exists, even in Scandinavia. Washington D.C. meets your criteria on most but education. My brother and his wife all had their children at no expense. The Metro is one of the cleanest public transportation systems in America. It's one of the most walkable and beautiful cities I have ever been to.
- berbec 9y ago
  New York state has free college. My South Park funny bone gets tickled every time I hear the name - the "Excelsior" scholarship.

by jimmy1 9y ago

MereInterest 9y ago

> There are cities in America with public healthcare, and then there are cities that don't. Could you expand on this? I was unaware of any cities in the US with public healthcare.

MrLeap 9y ago
I live in a small town north of Kansas City, MO that pays for ambulance rides if you can't. Not exactly NHS, but it's been a huge help to people I know. There are also several free clinics in KC and STL. In my area, there's two "tiers" of healthcare. Urgent Care for 99% of everything worth getting help for, and emergency rooms for a crisis. Most people I know in this town can't afford primary care physicians. I've never heard anyone talk about going to a free clinic, so I can't speak to their quality.
- FireBeyond 9y ago
  > I live in a small town north of Kansas City, MO that pays for ambulance rides if you can't. Eh, as a EMS provider, there's a very different logic in play there. In my County's Medic One system, the transport is free, the rationale being that it's already been paid for by property taxes levied specifically to have these services available, and that people believed then being charged for use of the service would be "double-dipping". While I wouldn't discount the importance of said service, I would dispute that it forms any meaningful form of "public healthcare" (even the private ambulances in the county charge $600+$16/mile, not cheap, but dwarfed the minute you cross the threshold into that ER).

yequalsx 9y ago

America is one of the biggest (land-mass wise) and most diverse places in the world. There are tons of experiences to have. There are no places in the U.S. that provide universal healthcare. There are no places in the U.S. in which public universities don't charge a lot in comparison to the OECD countries. There are no places in the U.S. that guarantee adequate food, or shelter. There are private organizations that do provide food and shelter but relying on the kindness of others is not a guarantee. The per capita GDP level in the U.S. is sufficiently high to provide universal healthcare, free higher education, basic shelter, and food needs. This is indisputable. Mentioning immigration is a red herring since the influx of immigrants to the U.S. has not brought down the per capita GDP enough to claim that these things are unaffordable.

jchb 9y ago
The issue of immigration is not just about whether there is enough money, it is also about how willing people are to pay. The states with the best public welfare systems, usually considered to be those in Scandinavia, have historically had very homogenous societies. Often a strong connection is drawn between the homogeneity of a society and the willingness to pay tax ( * ). Note that by homogeneity we do not only speak about peoples origin and looks, but perhaps more importantly about what values they hold. If you have a constant large influx of immigrants from diverse cultures, such as the US has had throughout its history, you also have a greater difference of values. ( * )Although I grant that those that argue for this usually lean to the conservative side of the political spectrum, for example David Goodhart: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2004/feb/24/race.eu https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2004/feb/24/race.eu)
- yequalsx 9y ago
  I was responding to jimmy1's post. In there jimmy1 specifically mentions cost of providing for immigrants. ... story gets changed when all of a sudden your government no longer has the means to take care of everyone. Since the per capita GDP of the U.S. is not declining so much to immigration then mentioning immigration is not relevant. It's a red herring. I can only guess as to the reason why jimmy1 made such an irrelevant point but I can't prove that my guess is correct. Thus I'll settle for just pointing out that it's a red herring and an argumentative fallacy.

point78 9y ago

Wrong on so many levels. Give an example of one city where healthcare is completely free or public transportation is 5 stars (train, bus, subway function and are free to ride) or a city with universal basic income or a city where higher education is 100% free.

matwood 9y ago
> public transportation is 5 stars (train, bus, subway function and are free to ride) Portland had an area inside the city where this was the case, but it looks like it was canceled. :( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fareless_Square https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fareless_Square > a city where higher education is 100% free. GA has been offering almost free to completely free college with lottery money for a long time to residents. http://www.gpb.org/blogs/georgia-at-work/2017/05/22/want-free-college-tuition-georgia-here%E2%80%99s-how-you-can-get-it http://www.gpb.org/blogs/georgia-at-work/2017/05/22/want-fre... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOPE_Scholarship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOPE_Scholarship
jimmy1 9y ago
Before I answer, can we at least level set that your your criteria / standards are pretty extreme? Unless you mean each individually and not the sum of them together -- but if you did mean the sum -- I want to live in this utopia you have in mind that has 100% this and 5 star that! I don't think that place exists, even in Scandinavia. Washington D.C. meets your criteria on most but education. My brother and his wife all had their children at no expense. The Metro is one of the cleanest public transportation systems in America. It's one of the most walkable and beautiful cities I have ever been to.
berbec 9y ago
New York state has free college. My South Park funny bone gets tickled every time I hear the name - the "Excelsior" scholarship.