6 ms·

People always hate redesigns of popular services, and the truth is that it doesn't matter. A redesign has never encouraged any significant % of users to leave a

by nukeop 9y ago

People always hate redesigns of popular services, and the truth is that it doesn't matter. A redesign has never encouraged any significant % of users to leave any service. People hated Windows 8, new Youtube looks, new Facebook timelines, Twitter changes, and nobody ever left any of these because of those changes. Another matter is that these petitions can be easily scripted and signed from thousands of IPs in a matter of minutes.

thriftwy 9y ago
> People hated Windows 8... and nobody ever left any of these because of those changes How would you "leave" a product that you have already paid money for? They'll just avoid buying stuff like that in the future. Leaving is for services. Windows 8 is an utter disaster. I'm pretty sure that explosive Macbook growth at the time was fueled by this (and Vista). Today, Windows is for miserable people who can't afford anything better. This is understood by consumers. This is also understood by hardware makers. It takes two strikes to ruin product's reputation.
- Dayshine 9y ago
  >Today, Windows is for miserable people who can't afford anything better As I sit here running Windows on a Macbook...
  - thriftwy 9y ago
    Let's think about it: - You probably run it on Macbook because native Windows laptops are sub-par and bad value for the buck. Reinforces my point. - You probably run it because you have to. Reinforces my point partially. Yes, maybe Win10 is not so awful anymore. Who cares, the damage is done. The trick is not hitting the target once in a blue moon. The trick is hitting it every time, and it's obvious MS can't do that. Between Windows ME, Vista and Win8, can you remember even one comparable failure from Apple? Win8 was so bad, it made Linux desktop look usable by comparison. Even as it was itself neglected as OSS enthusiasts moved to Mac OS en masse.
    - nukeop 9y ago
      >can you remember even one comparable failure from Apple? Apple's products are big ugly failures very often: - Siri is a disappointment from usability point of view and ridiculed on the internet when compared to other digital assistants - Apple Newton - Apple servers, where it turned out that in the server market a shiny case doesn't matter as much as power, efficiency, and cost (bang for your buck) - G4 Cube - Any of their several mouses - Any of their several keyboard - The U2 itunes incident - The "You're holding it wrong" fiasco - The recent hilarious iphone X calculator bugs - iPhone bending
    - Dayshine 9y ago
      No, I run on a Macbook because that's what my work gave me. No, I use Windows because I like things just working. OSX/Linux doesn't just work. >one comparable failure from Apple Just the whole damn OS. If I want unix based I'll use Linux.
  - CalRobert 9y ago
    Not sure "afford" has anything to do with it. Hate to be that guy, but Ubuntu has gotten really good....
    - criddell 9y ago
      That's absolutely true (it's my favorite Linux distro), but it doesn't help much if an application you require isn't available for that OS. If you are a gamer, you are probably going to run Windows. If you are an iOS developer, you will probably have a macOS machine. If a great web browser is all you need, then just about any OS is going to work well for you. All of the big operating systems are very good these days and have been for quite a while.
- tpaschalis 9y ago
  > Today, Windows is for miserable people who can't afford anything better. This is understood by consumers. This is also understood by hardware makers. Please, take a look outside of the SV/US bubble. Windows currently has a nearly 90% market share [1], is available to a very wide spectrum of devices. This is not because of "miserable people who can't afford anything better", but due to conscious efforts by Microsoft to make their product accesible. And due to marketing as well [1]https://netmarketshare.com https://netmarketshare.com
  - thriftwy 9y ago
    I'm sorry for you to hear, but there's more poor and miserable people in the world than affluent ones. Doesn't make anything that I have said less valid. I just want to see Windows crowd admit that they left their audience down, and etch that on the back of their eyelids. Because right now they're in quantum entalgnement state, where they simultaneously admit it, but then again "but maybe it wasn't so bad after all, we got to keep most of market share". You let my mom down, for god's sake. Just stop. Admit and never forget. It was exactly as bad as you fear to remember and then some.
    - goldenkey 9y ago
      I use Windows, OSX, Linux and BSD. And my main OS is Windows. Sorry that you don't like the OS. Maybe you never learned the APIs or read some of the public code. The windows kernel isn't bad by any means. And its userspace utilities are pretty damn good.
      - thriftwy 9y ago
        You sound like an autist. Maybe you are, then who I am to judge you? Kudos for koping. But if you aren't, you are showing a dangerous level of disregard for human wellbeing. A dismal OS was shipped to around billion customers, which undid basic UI features that they were accustomized to. And your defence is that this OS was made with perfectly fine parts. No, that's not a good line here.
- nukeop 9y ago
  I don't think it's a matter of affording something better since GNU/Linux is free.
  - thriftwy 9y ago
    We are talking about full-stack offering. Laptop + OS + support. In this market, unfortunately, Linux is non-player. Even Google Pixel is more visible.
    - rovek 9y ago
      The only Microsoft hardware you can buy is a Surface, this scope seems like an insignificantly narrow topic of conversation.
- namaemuta 9y ago
  > Today, Windows is for miserable people who can't afford anything better. So do you consider "miserable people who can't afford anything better" all those gamers with Ultra PCs?
  - zolthrowaway 9y ago
    Windows as a main OS is a horrible experience IMO. I want a normal start menu. I don't want anything to do with the Windows app store which is full of 99% junk. I don't want most of the preinstalled bullcrap like the XBox app, people, Cortana, etc. I don't want automatic updates forced on me (especially when I can't even set reasonable working hours). Yes, I understand most of these things can be mitigated but it takes work. Prior to Windows 8, these things just worked. I still have Windows installed but it is entirely to boot into Steam/Orgin/BattleNet. I'd rather not mess around with Wine since I already paid for a Windows key. But the Windows user experience has drastically gone down over the years. If you aren't a gamer, you should 100% be using a Mac or a ready out of the box Linux distro like Ubuntu or Mint. I absolutely hate what Windows has become and it is a miserable experience now.
IIIIIIIIIIIIIII 9y ago
Yeah, I think two very different things are mixed together: - "Different" always takes getting used to. One's central neural network literally has to rewire new connections (and/or change the impact of existing ones) - for things that one uses often enough to have a dedicated circuit (which does not mean those neurons that are involved doing _only_ one thing, those exist [0], but more often it's a network thing). Heavy daily users of a service probably do have circuitry responding to that service in particular, and it has to reorganize itself a bit after the service changes. However, "different" does not have any bias towards a direction, "better" or "worse". It is just resistance to change because change is costly. - Whether the change actually _is_ for the worse (difficulty: define objective criteria). The initial gut reaction alone cannot be used to differentiate between the two scenarios. The additional difference is that the first point always happens and can be traced to real effects, but the second one can be subjective, you first have to define what the overall purpose of something is in the first place, which in the case of some non-(life-)essential website is relative (to whom you ask) and also not static. Even if a change is for the better by some objective criteria, the effect of the resistance to the change itself will always be there. So initial reactions that are non-specific and only are about "the change is bad" are not all that useful. The magnitude of the reaction also may be a symptom of either the popularity (if people spend more time with something any change will impact them harder), that something really is worse, or a mix of both, hard to tell on its own. [0] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/one-face-one-neuron/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/one-face-one-neur...
thriftwy 9y ago
I can also say that I've basically stopped using Last.FM after one of their re-designs. It's not that I have signed any petitions, it's that with new feature set and presentation, there wasn't any place in my life for this. I still scrobble but I'm not really visiting. That, and failure to bring in positive change. Instead of addressing problems that I am seeing (e.g. trolls and bitter people spamming broadcasts of artists) they're tweaking colors. Ok, bye.
- hafunnyusername 9y ago
  I have been scrobbling for years, but never really use the website itself. What would you like to see in terms of significant new features and changes?
  - skinnymuch 9y ago
    Yeah same here. I never knew what to do with last.fm besides cursory browsing and scrobbling. I don’t like the redesign but it doesn’t change much.
- skinnymuch 9y ago
  What did you use last.fm for besides scrobbling? I still go to it once a week to see my scrobbles and popularity of certain artists or related ones. The redesign removing personalization of own profiles annoyed me. But didn’t change my habits much.
  - thriftwy 9y ago
    Any new artist name I have heard, I would look up in last.fm to gauge what they similar to and how big they are. I used events (to show that I'm going to a live concert). I had friends there. Another thing is people stopped using last.fm eventully. I did artsts tagging and used shoutbox. This is where lack of community tools really kicked in. Many shoutboxes were outright dominated by undesirables.
orf 9y ago
Digs redesign killed them, and caused Reddit to get all their users.
koyote 9y ago
I think it very much depends on whether the redesign is just a UX/UI "refresher" or if it actually completely changes the way the service works and how you use it. I am thinking of Digg here which is a good example of a redesign that led to a significant outflow of users.
lqdc13 9y ago
Look up Stumbleupon on google trends. Tons of users left immediately after their redesign.
cabalamat 9y ago
> A redesign has never encouraged any significant % of users to leave any service. Digg
- pbhjpbhj 9y ago
  I was in the hordes that moved to digg after a Slashdot redesign too. For a while it was looking like Voat might be the new end destination after Reddit, but that was political rather than aesthetic.
  - slig 9y ago
    It didn't help that the new destination was unstable and practically impossible to use when the hordes tried to migrate.
220V_USKettle 9y ago
Digg.com
doctorsher 9y ago
The redesign can still hurt snapchat even if no users leave. Personally, before the update, I would look at the snapchat discover stories every day. Now I find the page so appalling to scroll through I don't navigate to it anymore. I think this is a large part of their business model, otherwise other companies won't purchase slots in the discovery page. It just depends if my experience is a one-off or if it holds for a decent percentage of snapchat users.

by nukeop 9y ago

thriftwy 9y ago

> People hated Windows 8... and nobody ever left any of these because of those changes How would you "leave" a product that you have already paid money for? They'll just avoid buying stuff like that in the future. Leaving is for services. Windows 8 is an utter disaster. I'm pretty sure that explosive Macbook growth at the time was fueled by this (and Vista). Today, Windows is for miserable people who can't afford anything better. This is understood by consumers. This is also understood by hardware makers. It takes two strikes to ruin product's reputation.

Dayshine 9y ago
>Today, Windows is for miserable people who can't afford anything better As I sit here running Windows on a Macbook...
- thriftwy 9y ago
  Let's think about it: - You probably run it on Macbook because native Windows laptops are sub-par and bad value for the buck. Reinforces my point. - You probably run it because you have to. Reinforces my point partially. Yes, maybe Win10 is not so awful anymore. Who cares, the damage is done. The trick is not hitting the target once in a blue moon. The trick is hitting it every time, and it's obvious MS can't do that. Between Windows ME, Vista and Win8, can you remember even one comparable failure from Apple? Win8 was so bad, it made Linux desktop look usable by comparison. Even as it was itself neglected as OSS enthusiasts moved to Mac OS en masse.
  - nukeop 9y ago
    >can you remember even one comparable failure from Apple? Apple's products are big ugly failures very often: - Siri is a disappointment from usability point of view and ridiculed on the internet when compared to other digital assistants - Apple Newton - Apple servers, where it turned out that in the server market a shiny case doesn't matter as much as power, efficiency, and cost (bang for your buck) - G4 Cube - Any of their several mouses - Any of their several keyboard - The U2 itunes incident - The "You're holding it wrong" fiasco - The recent hilarious iphone X calculator bugs - iPhone bending
  - Dayshine 9y ago
    No, I run on a Macbook because that's what my work gave me. No, I use Windows because I like things just working. OSX/Linux doesn't just work. >one comparable failure from Apple Just the whole damn OS. If I want unix based I'll use Linux.
- CalRobert 9y ago
  Not sure "afford" has anything to do with it. Hate to be that guy, but Ubuntu has gotten really good....
  - criddell 9y ago
    That's absolutely true (it's my favorite Linux distro), but it doesn't help much if an application you require isn't available for that OS. If you are a gamer, you are probably going to run Windows. If you are an iOS developer, you will probably have a macOS machine. If a great web browser is all you need, then just about any OS is going to work well for you. All of the big operating systems are very good these days and have been for quite a while.
tpaschalis 9y ago
> Today, Windows is for miserable people who can't afford anything better. This is understood by consumers. This is also understood by hardware makers. Please, take a look outside of the SV/US bubble. Windows currently has a nearly 90% market share [1], is available to a very wide spectrum of devices. This is not because of "miserable people who can't afford anything better", but due to conscious efforts by Microsoft to make their product accesible. And due to marketing as well [1]https://netmarketshare.com https://netmarketshare.com
- thriftwy 9y ago
  I'm sorry for you to hear, but there's more poor and miserable people in the world than affluent ones. Doesn't make anything that I have said less valid. I just want to see Windows crowd admit that they left their audience down, and etch that on the back of their eyelids. Because right now they're in quantum entalgnement state, where they simultaneously admit it, but then again "but maybe it wasn't so bad after all, we got to keep most of market share". You let my mom down, for god's sake. Just stop. Admit and never forget. It was exactly as bad as you fear to remember and then some.
  - goldenkey 9y ago
    I use Windows, OSX, Linux and BSD. And my main OS is Windows. Sorry that you don't like the OS. Maybe you never learned the APIs or read some of the public code. The windows kernel isn't bad by any means. And its userspace utilities are pretty damn good.
    - thriftwy 9y ago
      You sound like an autist. Maybe you are, then who I am to judge you? Kudos for koping. But if you aren't, you are showing a dangerous level of disregard for human wellbeing. A dismal OS was shipped to around billion customers, which undid basic UI features that they were accustomized to. And your defence is that this OS was made with perfectly fine parts. No, that's not a good line here.
nukeop 9y ago
I don't think it's a matter of affording something better since GNU/Linux is free.
- thriftwy 9y ago
  We are talking about full-stack offering. Laptop + OS + support. In this market, unfortunately, Linux is non-player. Even Google Pixel is more visible.
  - rovek 9y ago
    The only Microsoft hardware you can buy is a Surface, this scope seems like an insignificantly narrow topic of conversation.
namaemuta 9y ago
> Today, Windows is for miserable people who can't afford anything better. So do you consider "miserable people who can't afford anything better" all those gamers with Ultra PCs?
- zolthrowaway 9y ago
  Windows as a main OS is a horrible experience IMO. I want a normal start menu. I don't want anything to do with the Windows app store which is full of 99% junk. I don't want most of the preinstalled bullcrap like the XBox app, people, Cortana, etc. I don't want automatic updates forced on me (especially when I can't even set reasonable working hours). Yes, I understand most of these things can be mitigated but it takes work. Prior to Windows 8, these things just worked. I still have Windows installed but it is entirely to boot into Steam/Orgin/BattleNet. I'd rather not mess around with Wine since I already paid for a Windows key. But the Windows user experience has drastically gone down over the years. If you aren't a gamer, you should 100% be using a Mac or a ready out of the box Linux distro like Ubuntu or Mint. I absolutely hate what Windows has become and it is a miserable experience now.

IIIIIIIIIIIIIII 9y ago

Yeah, I think two very different things are mixed together: - "Different" always takes getting used to. One's central neural network literally has to rewire new connections (and/or change the impact of existing ones) - for things that one uses often enough to have a dedicated circuit (which does not mean those neurons that are involved doing _only_ one thing, those exist [0], but more often it's a network thing). Heavy daily users of a service probably do have circuitry responding to that service in particular, and it has to reorganize itself a bit after the service changes. However, "different" does not have any bias towards a direction, "better" or "worse". It is just resistance to change because change is costly. - Whether the change actually _is_ for the worse (difficulty: define objective criteria). The initial gut reaction alone cannot be used to differentiate between the two scenarios. The additional difference is that the first point always happens and can be traced to real effects, but the second one can be subjective, you first have to define what the overall purpose of something is in the first place, which in the case of some non-(life-)essential website is relative (to whom you ask) and also not static. Even if a change is for the better by some objective criteria, the effect of the resistance to the change itself will always be there. So initial reactions that are non-specific and only are about "the change is bad" are not all that useful. The magnitude of the reaction also may be a symptom of either the popularity (if people spend more time with something any change will impact them harder), that something really is worse, or a mix of both, hard to tell on its own. [0] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/one-face-one-neuron/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/one-face-one-neur...

thriftwy 9y ago

I can also say that I've basically stopped using Last.FM after one of their re-designs. It's not that I have signed any petitions, it's that with new feature set and presentation, there wasn't any place in my life for this. I still scrobble but I'm not really visiting. That, and failure to bring in positive change. Instead of addressing problems that I am seeing (e.g. trolls and bitter people spamming broadcasts of artists) they're tweaking colors. Ok, bye.

hafunnyusername 9y ago
I have been scrobbling for years, but never really use the website itself. What would you like to see in terms of significant new features and changes?
- skinnymuch 9y ago
  Yeah same here. I never knew what to do with last.fm besides cursory browsing and scrobbling. I don’t like the redesign but it doesn’t change much.
skinnymuch 9y ago
What did you use last.fm for besides scrobbling? I still go to it once a week to see my scrobbles and popularity of certain artists or related ones. The redesign removing personalization of own profiles annoyed me. But didn’t change my habits much.
- thriftwy 9y ago
  Any new artist name I have heard, I would look up in last.fm to gauge what they similar to and how big they are. I used events (to show that I'm going to a live concert). I had friends there. Another thing is people stopped using last.fm eventully. I did artsts tagging and used shoutbox. This is where lack of community tools really kicked in. Many shoutboxes were outright dominated by undesirables.

orf 9y ago

Digs redesign killed them, and caused Reddit to get all their users.

koyote 9y ago

I think it very much depends on whether the redesign is just a UX/UI "refresher" or if it actually completely changes the way the service works and how you use it. I am thinking of Digg here which is a good example of a redesign that led to a significant outflow of users.

lqdc13 9y ago

Look up Stumbleupon on google trends. Tons of users left immediately after their redesign.

cabalamat 9y ago

> A redesign has never encouraged any significant % of users to leave any service. Digg

pbhjpbhj 9y ago
I was in the hordes that moved to digg after a Slashdot redesign too. For a while it was looking like Voat might be the new end destination after Reddit, but that was political rather than aesthetic.
- slig 9y ago
  It didn't help that the new destination was unstable and practically impossible to use when the hordes tried to migrate.

220V_USKettle 9y ago

Digg.com

doctorsher 9y ago

The redesign can still hurt snapchat even if no users leave. Personally, before the update, I would look at the snapchat discover stories every day. Now I find the page so appalling to scroll through I don't navigate to it anymore. I think this is a large part of their business model, otherwise other companies won't purchase slots in the discovery page. It just depends if my experience is a one-off or if it holds for a decent percentage of snapchat users.