4 ms·

I would seriously consider getting one of their cars (read: Hellcat!), but only if I could remove Uconnect and the associated computers/'entertainment' system a

I would seriously consider getting one of their cars (read: Hellcat!), but only if I could remove Uconnect and the associated computers/'entertainment' system altogether, or at least disconnect/disable the antennas, because there's no way I'm trusting my life to (random car manufacturer)'s idea of security. Not even Tesla. To those who say this is a conspiracy theory: what happens when my newfangled car decides to kill me, or just takes over by accident? Unfortunately too many insane and unthinkable conspiracy theories have been proven true in the last few years. Can you imagine if every Intel processor had a flaw that allowed it to leak memory on demand, from in the browser? To wit: Chrysler/Jeep Cherokee, Toyota Prius, Audi, BMW, etc. People actually died due to sudden Prius acceleration and Toyota wouldn't provide any significant information, even under subpoena. So, for me, I kinda like the idea of driving 2006 or older vehicles. Why I have to drive around my mobile phone/tracking device is beyond me anyway. (That's why I carry one.)

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
bonestamp2 9y ago
Most manufacturers are installing firewalls in 2018+ vehicles, so even if someone hacked the headunit, even in drive by wire systems it shouldn't be able to control your accelerator, transmission, parking brake, steering, etc. With the past few years of vehicle hacking and the automakers being embarrassed, they have started to take Bus security extremely seriously. In my opinion, with full display gauge clusters becoming popular, the entertainment and vehicle operation busses should be completely separate (including unique J1962 interfaces for each). Any software driven driver options should be controlled via the gauge cluster display instead of the entertainment system. That way, it's nearly impossible for a head unit hack to affect vehicle safety and control ECUs.
- craftyguy 9y ago
  > Most manufacturers are installing firewalls in 2018+ vehicles, ... With the past few years of vehicle hacking and the automakers being embarrassed, they have started to take Bus security extremely seriously. Unless their software source code is available for public review, I absolutely do not trust that this 'firewall' will do its job 100% of the time.
  - bonestamp2 9y ago
    I agree, which is why I think they should be on completely separate busses. That said, they at least seem to be taking security seriously... finally.
DSMan195276 9y ago
As a counter point: What if your old 2006 car decides to die while you're going 60+ on the highway because it's old, and you die because it doesn't have as many safety features as newer cars do? I mean, I get where you're coming from, I share some of the same worries you do, but the reality is that there is already hard evidence that newer cars are tons safer then older cars. It's really not clear to me that you can conclude that the chance of your new car deciding to kill you because of a software update/issue is a higher risk then the one you're taking by driving an old car. All of the examples you've given are more or less one-off events with newer cars, and they are serious, but people die every day in crashes with old cars that they could have survived or could have been prevented completely with a newer car with better safety features.
- matwood 9y ago
  >What if your old 2006 car decides to die while you're going 60+ on the highway because it's old, and you die because it doesn't have as many safety features as newer cars do? Is there some middle ground? My 2007 Toyota Tundra drives fine, and has few software components (certainly nothing that is updating OTA). Is the 2018 really that much safer than 2007? Even the body style was only updated a couple of years ago.
  - DSMan195276 9y ago
    > Is the 2018 really that much safer than 2007? Yes. The raw stats show that newer cars half around a 50% reduction in fatal accidents. You can find the stats here[0], but the relevant information is below (Sorry the formatting isn't great. You can find this exact chart from the linked page, the important point is that the numbers are about half of what they were): Occupant deaths per million registered passenger vehicles 1-3 years old, 1978-2016 Year Drivers All occupants Cars Pickups SUVs All passenger vehicles Cars Pickups SUVs All passenger vehicles 2006 77 101 49 73 112 137 74 106 2007 70 95 44 67 104 128 69 99 2008 65 87 35 61 92 114 52 85 2009 57 63 25 49 82 83 36 69 2010 49 64 20 43 71 80 29 61 2011 43 49 17 37 62 66 24 52 2012 42 44 16 35 61 56 23 49 2013 41 39 19 34 58 52 26 48 2014 37 38 18 32 53 47 24 44 2015 42 40 20 35 62 52 29 51 2016 43 39 21 35 63 48 32 51 A lot of things are simple, like standard back-up cameras. Newer cars also have stronger frames and more air bags (Especially side airbags, which your car almost definitely lacks). One feature in particular, ESC[1][2], is probably not on your car but is mandatory for all cars 2012 and later, and IIHS estimated in 2006 that if the feature was standard on every car it would prevent as much as 1/3 of all fatal crashes each year (And of course, the above charts don't disagree with this estimate). [0] http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/general-statistics/fatalityfacts/passenger-vehicles http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/general-statistics/fatalit... [1] http://www.iihs.org/iihs/news/desktopnews/electronic-stability-control-could-prevent-nearly-one-third-of-all-fatal-crashes-and-reduce-rollover-risk-by-as-much-as-80-effect-is-found-on-single-and-multiple-vehicle-crashes http://www.iihs.org/iihs/news/desktopnews/electronic-stabili... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control#Effectiveness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control#E...
stevenh 9y ago
I haven't entered a dealership since 2010 and part of me was holding onto hope that most of these "upgrades" were optional. This thread is confirming my fear that I'll never be able to find a new car worth buying again no matter how much money I bring to the table.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

bonestamp2 9y ago

Most manufacturers are installing firewalls in 2018+ vehicles, so even if someone hacked the headunit, even in drive by wire systems it shouldn't be able to control your accelerator, transmission, parking brake, steering, etc. With the past few years of vehicle hacking and the automakers being embarrassed, they have started to take Bus security extremely seriously. In my opinion, with full display gauge clusters becoming popular, the entertainment and vehicle operation busses should be completely separate (including unique J1962 interfaces for each). Any software driven driver options should be controlled via the gauge cluster display instead of the entertainment system. That way, it's nearly impossible for a head unit hack to affect vehicle safety and control ECUs.

craftyguy 9y ago
> Most manufacturers are installing firewalls in 2018+ vehicles, ... With the past few years of vehicle hacking and the automakers being embarrassed, they have started to take Bus security extremely seriously. Unless their software source code is available for public review, I absolutely do not trust that this 'firewall' will do its job 100% of the time.
- bonestamp2 9y ago
  I agree, which is why I think they should be on completely separate busses. That said, they at least seem to be taking security seriously... finally.

DSMan195276 9y ago

As a counter point: What if your old 2006 car decides to die while you're going 60+ on the highway because it's old, and you die because it doesn't have as many safety features as newer cars do? I mean, I get where you're coming from, I share some of the same worries you do, but the reality is that there is already hard evidence that newer cars are tons safer then older cars. It's really not clear to me that you can conclude that the chance of your new car deciding to kill you because of a software update/issue is a higher risk then the one you're taking by driving an old car. All of the examples you've given are more or less one-off events with newer cars, and they are serious, but people die every day in crashes with old cars that they could have survived or could have been prevented completely with a newer car with better safety features.

matwood 9y ago
>What if your old 2006 car decides to die while you're going 60+ on the highway because it's old, and you die because it doesn't have as many safety features as newer cars do? Is there some middle ground? My 2007 Toyota Tundra drives fine, and has few software components (certainly nothing that is updating OTA). Is the 2018 really that much safer than 2007? Even the body style was only updated a couple of years ago.
- DSMan195276 9y ago
  > Is the 2018 really that much safer than 2007? Yes. The raw stats show that newer cars half around a 50% reduction in fatal accidents. You can find the stats here[0], but the relevant information is below (Sorry the formatting isn't great. You can find this exact chart from the linked page, the important point is that the numbers are about half of what they were): Occupant deaths per million registered passenger vehicles 1-3 years old, 1978-2016 Year Drivers All occupants Cars Pickups SUVs All passenger vehicles Cars Pickups SUVs All passenger vehicles 2006 77 101 49 73 112 137 74 106 2007 70 95 44 67 104 128 69 99 2008 65 87 35 61 92 114 52 85 2009 57 63 25 49 82 83 36 69 2010 49 64 20 43 71 80 29 61 2011 43 49 17 37 62 66 24 52 2012 42 44 16 35 61 56 23 49 2013 41 39 19 34 58 52 26 48 2014 37 38 18 32 53 47 24 44 2015 42 40 20 35 62 52 29 51 2016 43 39 21 35 63 48 32 51 A lot of things are simple, like standard back-up cameras. Newer cars also have stronger frames and more air bags (Especially side airbags, which your car almost definitely lacks). One feature in particular, ESC[1][2], is probably not on your car but is mandatory for all cars 2012 and later, and IIHS estimated in 2006 that if the feature was standard on every car it would prevent as much as 1/3 of all fatal crashes each year (And of course, the above charts don't disagree with this estimate). [0] http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/general-statistics/fatalityfacts/passenger-vehicles http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/general-statistics/fatalit... [1] http://www.iihs.org/iihs/news/desktopnews/electronic-stability-control-could-prevent-nearly-one-third-of-all-fatal-crashes-and-reduce-rollover-risk-by-as-much-as-80-effect-is-found-on-single-and-multiple-vehicle-crashes http://www.iihs.org/iihs/news/desktopnews/electronic-stabili... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control#Effectiveness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control#E...

stevenh 9y ago

I haven't entered a dealership since 2010 and part of me was holding onto hope that most of these "upgrades" were optional. This thread is confirming my fear that I'll never be able to find a new car worth buying again no matter how much money I bring to the table.