5 ms·

During my undergrad university days (at the University of Utah), I took some Mandarin classes. There was a local Confucius Institute which provided various free

During my undergrad university days (at the University of Utah), I took some Mandarin classes. There was a local Confucius Institute which provided various free materials in Chinese to the campus library. The extent of my direct contact with them was receiving a couple hundred dollars for doing well in a Mandarin speech contest they held for my class. It was obvious that there was a certain propaganda aspect to this outreach effort; the reading materials provided of course didn't go into any potential negatives of the Beijing government, etc. Very much in line with the CCTV news network. My Mandarin teacher was Taiwanese and so I think that was good for me in that I wasn't getting all my exposure to Chinese from a single source. I would not be surprised at all to learn that Chinese government operatives were using these various state-funded educational agencies for gaining intelligence and promoting their ideology. I assume the US is doing the same thing. It's a long game, with assets being put into place sometimes decades in advance. A healthy dose of cynicism is always important when dealing with state-funded groups; it's rare that countries invest such resources just out of the goodness of their altruistic hearts.

Cyberdog 9y ago
Thanks for sharing your experience. I agree that there's nothing inherently wrong with projects like the Confucius Institute, both by foreign governments as well as my own, but it certainly behooves the participants to consider the motivations of the people behind it.
tptacek 9y ago
Why would you expect the Confucius Institute to provide information on the negatives of Chinese government? It's a Chinese culture organization, and it's directly affiliated with the government of China.
- DrJokepu 9y ago
  Other, similar organizations from other countries often at least try to maintain the illusion of some degree of objectivity. If you take advanced French classes at the French Institute, there is a good chance that contemporary issues affecting France will be discussed in class.
  - schoen 9y ago
    Indeed, when I took German at the Goethe-Institut there was a fair amount of class-time reference to social problems in Germany (although perhaps with an optimistic spin, something like "Germany is great because Germans acknowledge important social problems and work to solve them¹"). I haven't experienced the Confucius Institute for comparison. ¹ It seemed like nearly every course had a dialogue on the theme "Was machen Sie für die Umwelt?" ('What do you do for the environment?').
- jdavis703 9y ago
  Voice of America, and other media provided by the U.S. International Broadcasting Bureau provide a balanced perspective on the U.S. If there are anti-government situations going on, they cover it. Just take a look at the headlines about Trump on voanews.com vs. the headlines about Xi on xinhuanet.com.
  - labster 9y ago
    > GOP Women Frustrated by Trump's Approach to Abuse Charges > 2018 Congressional Elections Loom as Referendum on Trump > House Panel Launches Probe into Trump Aide's Employment Amid Domestic Abuse Allegations Oh, wow, point taken. I always forget about VOA because the government doesn't promote it inside the United States. BBC and even NHK have a much higher profile than Voice of America does in America.
    - stcredzero 9y ago
      I always forget about VOA because the government doesn't promote it inside the United States. Openness and fairness are also political weapons. You know your side has lost, if it reaches a state of "evaporative cooling" such that it's incapable of using such weapons. http://lesswrong.com/lw/lr/evaporative_cooling_of_group_beliefs/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/lr/evaporative_cooling_of_group_beli...
    - gowld 9y ago
      VOA isn't a complete shill for the Executive, but it's still a propaganda arm of the US Government.
  - tptacek 9y ago
    I guess that's a valid point, but it's worth asking whether transparency is really a core value of Chinese political culture, the way it ostensibly is to ours. That doesn't make Chinese culture necessarily better or worse, ceteris paribus, but it would definitely influence the kinds of things a government-sponsored cultural agency would demonstrate. I think my point is just: we might be asking for a lot from something as straightforward as a Chinese cultural agency.
- vorg 9y ago
  I didn't get the impression DanAndersen expected them to; he wrote "of course"... > the reading materials provided of course didn't go into any potential negatives of the Beijing government
- nkurz 9y ago
  I don't think he presumed it would? The subtext (as I read it) is that his émigré Taiwanese instructor was prejudiced against the mainland government to the point of rarely mentioning any positives. The balance provided by the Confucius Institute was in providing the pro-government viewpoint, not more of the negative. Or am I misreading your question?
coliveira 9y ago
All countries have some kind of educational projects like this. The German, for example, have the Goethe Institute that is active around the world. It seems now that the US now wants to criminalize this kind of diplomatic activity just because it is coming from a commercial competitor.
- jeffdavis 9y ago
  Criminalize? Where did you get that from?
- HumanDrivenDev 9y ago
  I don't think it's at all fair to compare the Confucius Institute to the Goethe Institut. The Federal Republic of Germany has been free of totalitarianism for over 70 years.
- Keyframe 9y ago
  Yes, lots of countries do that. UK has British Council.
- noobermin 9y ago
  And to be honest, capitalism doesn't always need directly paid operatives. People whose livelihood depends on low taxes, less regulation, free trade, etc, will glady fund think-tanks, politicians, and media that espouse these values, not to mention, making TV appearances and op-eds themselves. It has the same effect of government funded propaganda, in my opinion. I do agree it is a little more nefarious to have a foreign government fund these efforts, but how different is it from wealthy business owners funding think-tanks and academics who align with them politically? It's probably not as nefarious but it's just a matter of degree.
seanmcdirmid 9y ago
Most of the UofU Chinese teachers are Taiwanese, and they aren’t funded though the Confucius institute (rather, there is a deep connection between the LDS church and Taiwan, which allows missionaries). I had one chinese teacher at Utah who was really against the Mainland government (and mainlanders in general), I don’t think his contract was renewed but he was a really funny guy and a decent teacher (had a blonde wife, seven boys, only in Utah).
sushid 9y ago
I think the Confucius Institute is fairly open about promoting Chinese culture and they're not going to bite the hand feeding them. It's an example of China gathering soft power, similar to how the Peace Corps does good things with the backing of the US government.
allemagne 9y ago
Are you sure you aren't being a little overly paranoid about these materials? Not saying that there isn't necessarily any attempt at propaganda there, but it sounds like you're just saying that these resources didn't directly criticize the CCP. Seems to me like it would be a bigger deal if learning materials did start going into the negatives of a ruling government. It would be a little odd if French materials for learning English included a denunciation of the actions of the British Empire or the Bush Administration for example (even if the denunciation was deserved). What kind of negative things would you expect a more even-handed textbook for learning Chinese to go into?

Cyberdog 9y ago

Thanks for sharing your experience. I agree that there's nothing inherently wrong with projects like the Confucius Institute, both by foreign governments as well as my own, but it certainly behooves the participants to consider the motivations of the people behind it.

tptacek 9y ago

Why would you expect the Confucius Institute to provide information on the negatives of Chinese government? It's a Chinese culture organization, and it's directly affiliated with the government of China.

DrJokepu 9y ago
Other, similar organizations from other countries often at least try to maintain the illusion of some degree of objectivity. If you take advanced French classes at the French Institute, there is a good chance that contemporary issues affecting France will be discussed in class.
- schoen 9y ago
  Indeed, when I took German at the Goethe-Institut there was a fair amount of class-time reference to social problems in Germany (although perhaps with an optimistic spin, something like "Germany is great because Germans acknowledge important social problems and work to solve them¹"). I haven't experienced the Confucius Institute for comparison. ¹ It seemed like nearly every course had a dialogue on the theme "Was machen Sie für die Umwelt?" ('What do you do for the environment?').
jdavis703 9y ago
Voice of America, and other media provided by the U.S. International Broadcasting Bureau provide a balanced perspective on the U.S. If there are anti-government situations going on, they cover it. Just take a look at the headlines about Trump on voanews.com vs. the headlines about Xi on xinhuanet.com.
- labster 9y ago
  > GOP Women Frustrated by Trump's Approach to Abuse Charges > 2018 Congressional Elections Loom as Referendum on Trump > House Panel Launches Probe into Trump Aide's Employment Amid Domestic Abuse Allegations Oh, wow, point taken. I always forget about VOA because the government doesn't promote it inside the United States. BBC and even NHK have a much higher profile than Voice of America does in America.
  - stcredzero 9y ago
    I always forget about VOA because the government doesn't promote it inside the United States. Openness and fairness are also political weapons. You know your side has lost, if it reaches a state of "evaporative cooling" such that it's incapable of using such weapons. http://lesswrong.com/lw/lr/evaporative_cooling_of_group_beliefs/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/lr/evaporative_cooling_of_group_beli...
  - gowld 9y ago
    VOA isn't a complete shill for the Executive, but it's still a propaganda arm of the US Government.
- tptacek 9y ago
  I guess that's a valid point, but it's worth asking whether transparency is really a core value of Chinese political culture, the way it ostensibly is to ours. That doesn't make Chinese culture necessarily better or worse, ceteris paribus, but it would definitely influence the kinds of things a government-sponsored cultural agency would demonstrate. I think my point is just: we might be asking for a lot from something as straightforward as a Chinese cultural agency.
vorg 9y ago
I didn't get the impression DanAndersen expected them to; he wrote "of course"... > the reading materials provided of course didn't go into any potential negatives of the Beijing government
nkurz 9y ago
I don't think he presumed it would? The subtext (as I read it) is that his émigré Taiwanese instructor was prejudiced against the mainland government to the point of rarely mentioning any positives. The balance provided by the Confucius Institute was in providing the pro-government viewpoint, not more of the negative. Or am I misreading your question?

coliveira 9y ago

All countries have some kind of educational projects like this. The German, for example, have the Goethe Institute that is active around the world. It seems now that the US now wants to criminalize this kind of diplomatic activity just because it is coming from a commercial competitor.

jeffdavis 9y ago
Criminalize? Where did you get that from?
HumanDrivenDev 9y ago
I don't think it's at all fair to compare the Confucius Institute to the Goethe Institut. The Federal Republic of Germany has been free of totalitarianism for over 70 years.
Keyframe 9y ago
Yes, lots of countries do that. UK has British Council.
noobermin 9y ago
And to be honest, capitalism doesn't always need directly paid operatives. People whose livelihood depends on low taxes, less regulation, free trade, etc, will glady fund think-tanks, politicians, and media that espouse these values, not to mention, making TV appearances and op-eds themselves. It has the same effect of government funded propaganda, in my opinion. I do agree it is a little more nefarious to have a foreign government fund these efforts, but how different is it from wealthy business owners funding think-tanks and academics who align with them politically? It's probably not as nefarious but it's just a matter of degree.

seanmcdirmid 9y ago

Most of the UofU Chinese teachers are Taiwanese, and they aren’t funded though the Confucius institute (rather, there is a deep connection between the LDS church and Taiwan, which allows missionaries). I had one chinese teacher at Utah who was really against the Mainland government (and mainlanders in general), I don’t think his contract was renewed but he was a really funny guy and a decent teacher (had a blonde wife, seven boys, only in Utah).

sushid 9y ago

I think the Confucius Institute is fairly open about promoting Chinese culture and they're not going to bite the hand feeding them. It's an example of China gathering soft power, similar to how the Peace Corps does good things with the backing of the US government.

allemagne 9y ago

Are you sure you aren't being a little overly paranoid about these materials? Not saying that there isn't necessarily any attempt at propaganda there, but it sounds like you're just saying that these resources didn't directly criticize the CCP. Seems to me like it would be a bigger deal if learning materials did start going into the negatives of a ruling government. It would be a little odd if French materials for learning English included a denunciation of the actions of the British Empire or the Bush Administration for example (even if the denunciation was deserved). What kind of negative things would you expect a more even-handed textbook for learning Chinese to go into?