7 ms·

In my current job, for a tech company with less than 12 people, at least 5 are interns. Two of them were recent hires (January) and before they were onboarded,

In my current job, for a tech company with less than 12 people, at least 5 are interns. Two of them were recent hires (January) and before they were onboarded, i had a meeting with my boss and the other senior developer regarding the new interns and my boss stated he didn’t want me and other senior dev spending too much time mentoring the interns and that if they couldn’t manage by themselves, he would just let them go (one is software dev intern, relocated from Lithuania). As far as i know, management provided zero training (online courses, conferences, books etc) and the dev intern is receiving 500€/month for 40h work week, which around Amsterdam/Netherlands hardly covers housing expenses in shared accommodation, even though the intern is soon expecting Erasmus support, which will alleviate his situation apparently. Needless to say i find the situation rather vile independently if it’s a common practice or even if non-paid internships are common. Recently i took the dev intern out for dinner and beers, gave him a few tips on how to improve himself to be ready for a decent job (online courses, writing blog posts etc) and told him he could repay me by paying forward to an intern at his next proper jobs. As a note, another intern (part time) is also working on his maybe 5 years old laptop that apparently crashes a lot and can hardly run something like Pycharm. I’m looking for another job :-)

expertentipp 9y ago
He is being paid with generous social security net (for which he doesn’t necessarily qualify) and with the priviledge of living in developed country with extensive infrastructure... /s
- jjkk0101 9y ago
  I understand your sarcasm, but what is sad some people actually think this way.
thepratt 9y ago
Is there no room to fight management or make them understand?
- zemanel 9y ago
  High probability of “not productive effort”, i’m fighting my own rather serious battle with management at the moment. On further note, before i started the contract i was asked to bring my own laptop as work computer, i didn’t necessarily agree (for all the obvious reasons as security and business/personal risk) but he was being pushy about i said i could take my laptop (at least to get started) and i was expecting to get a working computer. I never did. Management recently purchased brand new macbook pros and iphonex for themselves (which they are in their full right to do). So i didn’t even dare to criticize them regarding the interns. I already got myself in boiling water by criticizing management in that the way projects and tasks were being managed was highly unprofessional and my only wish is if i could leave a warning sign for interns (and devs) to keep clear of this company (or think really hard on how much they need the job) Edit: which is unfortunate given that the projects there are interesting in my opinion
  - sundvor 9y ago
    That sucks. Posting on Glassdoor could help, unless you risk your position before you have a new one with too much identifiable information. Definitely post after.
  - marcosdumay 9y ago
    > which they are in their full right to do They seem to be scamming the shareholders diverting money from productive investment into their self worth. It's not your problem, but it's not in their full right to do either.
    - zemanel 9y ago
      I do not believe they have shareholders. Afaik, the company business model is around providing tech services for humanitarian aid institutions and at least some revenue comes from that type of donor funding
      - marcosdumay 9y ago
        If they don't have money for buying proper productive equipment, but spend what they have in unproductive ostentatious stuff for management, they are very likely defrauding somebody. It may be shareholders, donors, tax-payers, or somebody else, but they are hurting somebody. It is also almost certainly not the employees (unless it's a cooperative).
gnclmorais 9y ago
> I’m looking for another job :-) Good, I was just going to suggest that!
teddythetwig 9y ago
Just want to point out that often the interns will receive additional compensation from their programs. When we hire interns from Erasmus+, they are given 500 euro from us, as well as 500 euro from their program. Additionally, Erasmus students are eligible for student housing from UvA or the VU. Finally, because they are in a special class, as interns, here in NL, we can actually get in trouble with the government for paying them more than 500 euro. It sounds to me like your management team isn't giving them the resources they need to survive in the city, but know that they are there. We have taken on four interns over the past two years, and after their internships placed them at large companies like Trivago and Elsevier, hired one on fulltime, and are working with the last to land a job in his preffered location. With the proper mentorship, it can be a great deal for students! If you are looking for a company where you are expected to mentor the junior devs and interns, send me a DM and we can see if you would be a good fit :)
- hetspookjee 9y ago
  I have a hard time believing that you will get in trouble for hiring interns and compensate them more than 500 euros. In the NL you aren't even obliged to give them any compensation and if you are compensating them you are free to do so as much as you'd wish. Internships in the Netherlands are akin to modern slavery imo. You work full time and with luck you get a compensation of 500 euros a month,though often no compensation is more likely to be the case. You will get a maximum loan of 1100 euros a month from the government, so a lot of students have to take on a second job if they don't get any compensation at all at their internship. National institute of neuroscience provides no compensation whatsoever, and for applied mathematics students the average compensation is around 200 euros. Obviously not wholly related to your comment but the internship situation in the Netherlands really grinds my gears.
  - teddythetwig 9y ago
    Oh believe me... Coming from the US, the summer between my first and second year, I was compensated 5k for three months of work. When I first heard what was standard in NL I was shocked. Then again, I was also paying 50k per semester for school, soooo yeah, take your pick haha. I wouldn't say slavery, more like indentured servitude. Anyways, I make it my personal goal to give our interns as much of mine and our senior devs' time as possible, as well as support after their internship is over.
dep_b 9y ago
The Netherlands is a special place in Software Hell. Where the non-suits are only a cost. "Devs can't be cheap enough! We can't find decent devs!"
- jacquesm 9y ago
  That's a silly generalization. I've got a pretty good overview of software development in Western Europe and NL isn't a special place for better or worse compared to the surrounding countries. If you want to get paid a lot more and you have the right skills the City or Silicon Valley are good options (assuming you are allowed to move there).
  - muninn_ 9y ago
    Well, if you're an exploited contractor from India or China or a member of a family that already has residence you should have no problem. If you're a well-educated person from the Netherlands you'll never get in - unless you try moving to Canada and use their point system.
  - dep_b 9y ago
    Perhaps a bit over generalized but I do feel that there’s an unusual large gap in salary between suits and devs even when comparing to countries like Germany. It doesn’t need to be a huge tech hub at all. Luckily English resembles Dutch so most Dutch speak it well enough to survive a job abroad.
    - jacquesm 9y ago
      The city-to-city variations in Germany are far larger than the city-to-city variations in NL because of the German history and the presence of Poland. So when you are comparing countries you need to go a bit deeper than that. I know very well paid developers in NL and very poorly paid ones, it is mostly a matter of knowing what you are worth and refusing to charge less than that. You might find 'your spot' taken by a skilled immigrant but that's a relatively small chance. I'd hate to have to find a developer job in Spain or Portugal judging by the number of people from there that have moved to either NL or DE. Anything East of the German-Polish border is going to pay a lot worse unless you are willing to move to Finland where there are pockets of start-ups with reasonable compensation. Dutch developers moving abroad to increase their salary is not a trend as far as I can see.
jacquesm 9y ago
Cup of tea or coffee?
- zemanel 9y ago
  Sure why not, i’ll drop you an e-mail
lonnv 9y ago
What kind of dev job are you looking for? The company I work for is hiring.

expertentipp 9y ago

He is being paid with generous social security net (for which he doesn’t necessarily qualify) and with the priviledge of living in developed country with extensive infrastructure... /s

jjkk0101 9y ago
I understand your sarcasm, but what is sad some people actually think this way.

thepratt 9y ago

Is there no room to fight management or make them understand?

zemanel 9y ago
High probability of “not productive effort”, i’m fighting my own rather serious battle with management at the moment. On further note, before i started the contract i was asked to bring my own laptop as work computer, i didn’t necessarily agree (for all the obvious reasons as security and business/personal risk) but he was being pushy about i said i could take my laptop (at least to get started) and i was expecting to get a working computer. I never did. Management recently purchased brand new macbook pros and iphonex for themselves (which they are in their full right to do). So i didn’t even dare to criticize them regarding the interns. I already got myself in boiling water by criticizing management in that the way projects and tasks were being managed was highly unprofessional and my only wish is if i could leave a warning sign for interns (and devs) to keep clear of this company (or think really hard on how much they need the job) Edit: which is unfortunate given that the projects there are interesting in my opinion
- sundvor 9y ago
  That sucks. Posting on Glassdoor could help, unless you risk your position before you have a new one with too much identifiable information. Definitely post after.
- marcosdumay 9y ago
  > which they are in their full right to do They seem to be scamming the shareholders diverting money from productive investment into their self worth. It's not your problem, but it's not in their full right to do either.
  - zemanel 9y ago
    I do not believe they have shareholders. Afaik, the company business model is around providing tech services for humanitarian aid institutions and at least some revenue comes from that type of donor funding
    - marcosdumay 9y ago
      If they don't have money for buying proper productive equipment, but spend what they have in unproductive ostentatious stuff for management, they are very likely defrauding somebody. It may be shareholders, donors, tax-payers, or somebody else, but they are hurting somebody. It is also almost certainly not the employees (unless it's a cooperative).

gnclmorais 9y ago

> I’m looking for another job :-) Good, I was just going to suggest that!

teddythetwig 9y ago

Just want to point out that often the interns will receive additional compensation from their programs. When we hire interns from Erasmus+, they are given 500 euro from us, as well as 500 euro from their program. Additionally, Erasmus students are eligible for student housing from UvA or the VU. Finally, because they are in a special class, as interns, here in NL, we can actually get in trouble with the government for paying them more than 500 euro. It sounds to me like your management team isn't giving them the resources they need to survive in the city, but know that they are there. We have taken on four interns over the past two years, and after their internships placed them at large companies like Trivago and Elsevier, hired one on fulltime, and are working with the last to land a job in his preffered location. With the proper mentorship, it can be a great deal for students! If you are looking for a company where you are expected to mentor the junior devs and interns, send me a DM and we can see if you would be a good fit :)

hetspookjee 9y ago
I have a hard time believing that you will get in trouble for hiring interns and compensate them more than 500 euros. In the NL you aren't even obliged to give them any compensation and if you are compensating them you are free to do so as much as you'd wish. Internships in the Netherlands are akin to modern slavery imo. You work full time and with luck you get a compensation of 500 euros a month,though often no compensation is more likely to be the case. You will get a maximum loan of 1100 euros a month from the government, so a lot of students have to take on a second job if they don't get any compensation at all at their internship. National institute of neuroscience provides no compensation whatsoever, and for applied mathematics students the average compensation is around 200 euros. Obviously not wholly related to your comment but the internship situation in the Netherlands really grinds my gears.
- teddythetwig 9y ago
  Oh believe me... Coming from the US, the summer between my first and second year, I was compensated 5k for three months of work. When I first heard what was standard in NL I was shocked. Then again, I was also paying 50k per semester for school, soooo yeah, take your pick haha. I wouldn't say slavery, more like indentured servitude. Anyways, I make it my personal goal to give our interns as much of mine and our senior devs' time as possible, as well as support after their internship is over.

dep_b 9y ago

The Netherlands is a special place in Software Hell. Where the non-suits are only a cost. "Devs can't be cheap enough! We can't find decent devs!"

jacquesm 9y ago
That's a silly generalization. I've got a pretty good overview of software development in Western Europe and NL isn't a special place for better or worse compared to the surrounding countries. If you want to get paid a lot more and you have the right skills the City or Silicon Valley are good options (assuming you are allowed to move there).
- muninn_ 9y ago
  Well, if you're an exploited contractor from India or China or a member of a family that already has residence you should have no problem. If you're a well-educated person from the Netherlands you'll never get in - unless you try moving to Canada and use their point system.
- dep_b 9y ago
  Perhaps a bit over generalized but I do feel that there’s an unusual large gap in salary between suits and devs even when comparing to countries like Germany. It doesn’t need to be a huge tech hub at all. Luckily English resembles Dutch so most Dutch speak it well enough to survive a job abroad.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    The city-to-city variations in Germany are far larger than the city-to-city variations in NL because of the German history and the presence of Poland. So when you are comparing countries you need to go a bit deeper than that. I know very well paid developers in NL and very poorly paid ones, it is mostly a matter of knowing what you are worth and refusing to charge less than that. You might find 'your spot' taken by a skilled immigrant but that's a relatively small chance. I'd hate to have to find a developer job in Spain or Portugal judging by the number of people from there that have moved to either NL or DE. Anything East of the German-Polish border is going to pay a lot worse unless you are willing to move to Finland where there are pockets of start-ups with reasonable compensation. Dutch developers moving abroad to increase their salary is not a trend as far as I can see.

jacquesm 9y ago

Cup of tea or coffee?

zemanel 9y ago
Sure why not, i’ll drop you an e-mail

lonnv 9y ago

What kind of dev job are you looking for? The company I work for is hiring.