11 ms·

Achtung Baby by Sara Zaske, Reviewed

140 points by okket 9y ago

ggm 9y ago
Although written from a us mother's experience I suspect there are echoes for many cultures. "My year of living Danishly" by Helen Russell (sans Child) covers much the same experiential situation for a British couple in Denmark for instance.
gumby 9y ago
I can testify to this. My poor kid was shocked at how rigid the US high school was (after being in a German system), how he could get in trouble for having hints like matches, and how unhappy and stressed his classmates were (and how little they had — he didn’t yet know that “freedom”is a reflexive talisman of American identity). In Germany, as the book review says, even Nursery school kids have access to knives, hot glue guns, splinters, etc. 8 year olds who can weld aren’t uncommon. But those are symptoms of a philosophical difference. Kids learn very strict rules about behavior (stand behind that yellow line next to the U-bahn! Only cross the street with the light!) and are trained (it’s the only word for it) on how to ride a bike safely and follow the traffic laws. Then, given a framework, they have a lot more freedom than in the us...but the framework is quite rigid. In the US kids don’t even learn how to use cutlery, much less how to weld, somtheir world is, ironically, more circumscribed.
- reitanqild 9y ago
  You said it better than I can, I'll just add another observation: I grew up in another European country. We were allowed to roam around quite freely, keep knives (we even collected and made our own) and even practice with the air rifle since we were kids. However - we were taught the gun rules so thoroughly that I will still get annoyed when I see people waving guns around, even in a movie - for the longest time my dad refused to buy toy weapons, and to the degree that we managed to get hold of one we were not allowed to point it at others, making it kind of useless. - and yes, there were rules for the knives as well
  - mgkimsal 9y ago
    Can't speak for everywhere in the US, but I know growing up in the 70s kids with knives and air rifles wouldn't have been an outrageous thing. Friends of mine had knives (scouting, for one), and others had air rifles. "roaming the streets" brandishing knives might not be the language I'd use to describe my friends growing up, but it wasn't uncommon. That was only 40 years ago.
    - briandear 9y ago
      When I grew up in the 1980s, I had knives and very powerful air rifles. Kids used to have a lot more independence in the US.
      - garettmd 9y ago
        I've been noticing this as well after reading these comments. I'm starting to think the current environment we're regarding kids and weapons is a newer phenomenon, probably as a result of all the school shootings and other mass killings.
  - krylon 9y ago
    My experience was pretty much the same. My parents had no problem with me owning toy guns, but if I pointed one even in the general direction of another person, I got a stern lecture. My mother, who was a police officer (now retired) brought her gun home on a few occasions, and by that time all the stern toy-gun-lectures had sunken in so deep I found myself reluctant to even go near the thing, e.g. to pick up something lying next to it. Later, I found out that the gun had never been loaded while inside our house. Did not even matter really, I would not have touched it even if I had known that.
  - arethuza 9y ago
    My son was taught how to handle military style guns at a UK school by dedicated staff who were former members of the Army - they took handling of guns, training and physical security very seriously.
- lkrubner 9y ago
  I was in Germany this summer. My friend and I went to visit her parents. Her parents wanted me to see a historic town nearbye. We got in the car. The father drove down the road at 190 kilometers per hour. The other cars were also going fast. I saw cars at an intersection make turns, in front of other cars, that I would never do in the USA, because I would never trust the other drivers to behave correctly. But in Germany the drivers are very well trained. My friend got her driver's license in Germany when she was an adult. It was very expensive and she had to go through several courses. She had to prove that she could drive at night and during the day, and in a dense urban center, and also out on the highways, away from any cities. She was given multiple tests. It was a serious training effort. This is the paradox of the American emphasis on freedom. The attitude tends to be juvenile. The American mindset, at its crudest, is something like, "You got to give me a car, man, because I'm free, man, I've got freedom, so give me a the right to drive man, authority sucks, man, the government sucks, I'm free so I can drive, you can't stop me, man." So the drivers are untrained, so the government responds by treating all drivers as if they are badly behaving children. In Germany the attitude is "We (the government) will train you very well, and then we will trust you to be adults who can make wise choices." One thing I never saw in Germany: cops hiding behind trees, hoping to catch people who were speeding. Traffic cops are very common in the USA, but basically unknown in Germany, since the major highways don't have speed limits. Another thing I noticed in Germany, where there is a speed limit, people drive that limit, and not 5 kilometers above the speed limit. The drivers make the assumption that the government must have had some good reason for imposing a speed limit.
  - reitanqild 9y ago
    Good points! One little addition: > Another thing I noticed in Germany, where there is a speed limit, people drive that limit, and not 5 kilometers above the speed limit. The drivers make the assumption that the government must have had some good reason for imposing a speed limit. I guess the fact that the limits are higher also has some influence on this? I remember a Dutch engineer telling me that when they increased the speed limits years ago the average speed sunk and it was hypothesized that it was (IIRC) because as the limits became more reasonable more people decided to just follow them.
- aaronbrethorst 9y ago
  “freedom” is a reflexive talisman of American identity well said.
  - arethuza 9y ago
    Apologies for the daft question, but what kind of "freedom" are Americans referring to when they say "freedom"? Here in Scotland there is a certain fondness for the term (e.g. in a certain movie but really from the rather splendid Declaration of Arbroath) - but I think most people appreciate that this is all in reference to a war 700 years ago that doesn't have much relevance to our current political situation.
    - candu 9y ago
      That's the "reflexive" part: Americans often think of "freedom" in either an extremely simplistic way ("I can do whatever I want, whenever I want! Up yours, government! Instant gratification all the way! Free speech means I can say whatever asinine thing I want, anywhere and anytime, without giving a crap about others!") or a nationalist / jingoist way ("we have freedom and they don't! USA! USA!"). (Of course, not everyone conceptualizes "freedom" this way in the US, but it's a depressingly common approach - especially where any sort of political discourse is concerned.)
      - abakker 9y ago
        The reflexive part is that any time our personal space (emotional, mental, or physical) is threatened, it is a reflex to retaliate with "you are violating my freedom" style response. To ideas that threaten: "You can't make me think that way, I am free to think as I want" To feelings of discomfort: "It's a free country, I shouldn't have to feel this way" To physical space: "this is me or my property, I can do what I want with it" Obviously, when taken in extremes this results in polarization, mischaracterization, and ignorance. Taken responsibly, it is also not appreciably different from any place with a bill of rights. To americans, I would level the criticism that we use it as a crutch and an excuse, more than an ethos, as evidenced that most appeals to freedom are also appeals to the value of self interest.
- vim_wannabe 9y ago
  >Nursery school kids have access to knives, hot glue guns, splinters, etc. Maybe this has something to do with the school getting into big trouble when something does happen. I mean we have all heard of legends of the cat and the microwave oven. I guess companies and organizations just get sued over ridiculous things in the US?
- jacquesm 9y ago
  > 8 year olds who can weld aren’t uncommon. Did you really mean welding? I know some 8 year olds that can solder but I've yet to see one that could weld and I only taught my eldest to weld when he was 13 or so.
- walshemj 9y ago
  They did not have matches for chemistry class? I certainly did in the 6th form (last two years of school) in the Uk
- jancsika 9y ago
  > Then, given a framework, they have a lot more freedom than in the us... You're dealing with two (probably incompatible) types of freedom. The freedom you're talking about is the freedom a parent has to leave their kids in a room with a turntable because their children know not to play with things that aren't designed to be toys because they may be delicate and could break. The freedom you're comparing it to is the freedom a child has to put their hands on a turntable and scratch from an infinite number of rhythmic possibilities to create a new, dynamic form of music where there was previously a single, static form before. And while you could amend the framework and make a bunch of edge cases for historical shifts in thinking, you cannot make a framework that leaves room for the future shifts because we don't know what those are yet.
okket 9y ago
May also be of interest: A short (12 mins) documentary about a school in New Zealand where are no rules during recess. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1Y0cuufVGI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1Y0cuufVGI
- Mashimo 9y ago
  Here is also a nice short (11 mins) documentary about a kindergarten in Denmark, also from CBS Dateline. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jkiij9dJfcw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jkiij9dJfcw
- telesilla 9y ago
  The last 15 seconds is brilliant. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1Y0cuufVGI&t=11m40s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1Y0cuufVGI&t=11m40s A young girl gets stuck up a tree, and asks for help which is (kindly) denied, the caretaker watching from a distance. She gets herself down, and promptly climbs up the tree again. The childhood we should all have!
Mashimo 9y ago
>Later that year, Sophia and the rest of her Kita class take part in a gleefully parent-free sleepover. A sleepover! At school! For a 4-year-old! German here, can someone explain to me what's weird/bad/uncommon about this? It's still supervised.
- telesilla 9y ago
  Here is a list of common parenting fears in the US, pretty much a collection of unlikely scenarios: https://www.today.com/news/12-tips-easing-your-parent-noia-wbna41739120 https://www.today.com/news/12-tips-easing-your-parent-noia-w... But what about the real stuff, like I'm afraid my child will grow up without the ability to make good choices? I'm afraid my child will inherit my own fears? I'm afraid my child will not come to me when they need help? But these fears don't sell advertising on TV shows about abduction or pricy childcare centres and schools. The US is so deregulated and underfunded that it's a system of businesses doing anything they can to slowly tug at your wallet, which seems to have lead to the current day environment of fear.
- reificator 9y ago
  In North America any adult that is not the parent is a potential kidnapping rapist, doubly so if they're male. In Canada, child services were called on a mother of three for letting her children play outside in their fenced backyard while watching from the window.[1] Humans aren't equipped to really comprehend a 24-hour global news cycle. Things that are common and deadly are deemphasized and things that are rare are raised to panic inducing levels of fear. Dangers to children get extra attention. [1]: https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/manitoba-cfs-will-not-erase-file-of-mother-who-lets-kids-play-in-backyard-1.2871900 https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/manitoba-cfs-will-not-e...
  - Mashimo 9y ago
    >In North America any adult that is not the parent is a potential kidnapping rapist But the adults at the sleepover are the same as the adults that watch the kids during daytime :/ >In Canada, child services were called on a mother of three for letting her children play outside in their fenced backyard while watching from the window. When I played in the sandbox my father could not see me from the house. Just our dog, and the dog would watch me :) So if he saw the dog he know I was ok.
gambiting 9y ago
On the other hand, in my experience(and I welcome German people to chime in and dispel this notion), German child raising is very hands-off and devoid of any warmth. Yes, kids are given a lot of freedom, but are also expected to keep to their own devices vast majority of the time. When the parent comes back home, they don't think about doing activities with the child - quick chat about how is school, and then don't bother me for the rest of the evening. And it's not bad parenting or parents not caring - the people I met genuienly expect kids to be able to occupy their own time and the notion that they need family support apart from the material one is almost slightly weird to them. From my observations, it results in people who are fantastically independent and confident, but who can also be emotionally distant to everything. Again, this is just an anecdote of my own experience.
- leethargo 9y ago
  This might be true for older generations, but I would say it's less for young parents today. My in-laws were apparently quite cold/distant to their kids, but my parents were not, and I try not to be either ;-)
  - thomasz 9y ago
    As a rule of thumb, the parents of our baby boomers were a generation of repressed, damaged, emotionally and/or physically violent wrecks who demanded absolute respect and obedience for suffering through a war they themselves started. All that without being aware of the irony in the slightest.
    - sime2009 9y ago
      To be honest the parents of the baby boomers would have been old enough to suffer through and fight the war, but wars tend to be started by the older generation who hold the political power.
    - chopin 9y ago
      You would like to look up which the years of baby boomers were and how old their parents must have been. They certainly did not start the war; they suffered from it. I am of the baby boomer generation, my father was 17 at the end of the war. My parents demanded respect. That's a good thing, imho. Otherwise, I enjoyed a freedom kids nowadays can only dream of. I never felt any lack of love from my parents.
deleted 9y ago
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Tade0 9y ago
One thing I would like to point out is that this is rather an European thing than specifically German. Aside from playing with fire in school many of these experiences were my own and were the norm.
jernfrost 9y ago
Much the same could be said about native Norway in comparison to the US or UK. There is a documentary about identical twins from China. One ends up in Norway the other in the US. They meet many years later. You see quite radically different child raising. Norwegians focus on independence and freedom for the child. The Americans focus on lots of grownup controlled activities. My feeling is Norwegians focus on independence while Americans focus on ambition. Americans are more focused on their childrens enrichment and making them perform. I notice e.g. from American relatives how much earlier they get school work, tests and academic work. Norwegian childhood is more play and social interaction oriented. We focus inteaching children self control. When I came to the US I was surprised how out of controll American teenagers are. They don’t seem to function without lots of rules and regulations. They don’t seem used to regulating and controlling themselves. I think this creates a society were nobody fully trust each other and compensate with lots of strict rules. E.g. American police seem a lot more authoritarian than police in nordic countries.
- mercutio2 9y ago
  Your sociological explanations may be accurate, but it’s probably worth noting that very low police:population ratios in the US combined with a gargantuan supply of unrestricted handgun possession in the hands of the populous is also a strong contributor to bunker mentality from the police. [Edit: I see that Norway has a similarly low police:population ratio, so that observation isn’t really relevant for comparisons with Norway or the rest of Scandinavia. My error!] Also, Norwegian border patrol agents seemed pretty damned authoritarian in my experience, so my personal contact with law enforcement doesn’t match yours for the respective countries. /end anecdote
  - microtherion 9y ago
    Why do you consider the police:population ratio in the US "very low"? It seems it's pretty much middle of the pack, and arguably on the high side for Western Democracies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_number_of_police_officers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependen...
redleggedfrog 9y ago
This, to a lesser degree, can be found in the United States, if you can find the right place. I know because I speak from experience. I raised two sons in a community that allowed them exercise personal freedom and benefit from a scholastic experience similar to what is discussed in the article (I have not read the book). Ours is not the only such place, as I have friends who have found them as well. Kids get to school on their own from all over town, by bike, bus, or walk, even in the early grades. Summers are pretty much a cacophony of kid activity until 10PM (or later). No one thinks twice about kids being out on their own. My sons regaled me of stories of setting things on fire in chemistry class, field trips where kids fell in the creek (termed Lessons in Hypothermia), and the cool tools available in jewelry class, of all things. It would seem to me these communities are smaller (10-20K) and politically progressive. Ours has a tax just to fund schools. You have to have a town that is willing to invest in the children and can attract good teachers. Even the non-secular people are fairly progressive as well. I couldn't really have asked for much better living in the United States. Both sons are off to college and happy as can be, so I am grateful they got the community upbringing that they did. One of the things that might be considered a drawback is preparation for the "real-world." When my oldest went off to college he had a difficult time adjusting to people. The lack of self control, respect for the law, willful ignorance, and just plain meanness, was surprising to him. It makes it difficult to try and nudge him to experience the greater world at large. Another drawback is expense. The cost of living is high. A house here is fully $100,000-$150,000 more than a similar house in a town 15 miles away. This creates a dichotomy where families want to live here, but often can't afford it. Low to mid income housing is a politically hot topic.
- rayiner 9y ago
  i don’t think “politically progressive” is a determinative. The DC suburbs skew extremely left, by are oppressive as hell for children. Some parents recently got CPS sicced on them for letting their 8 year old walk less than a mile to school.
  - redleggedfrog 9y ago
    While I'm sure there are lots of politically progressive places that are problems, I can't imagine having a community similar to ours without it. We're an island of progressive surrounded by numerous similar sized towns that are decidedly conservative and have more community problems and are less attractive academically. But they're less expensive to live in, too.
russellbeattie 9y ago
Another article comparing a geographically huge country of 323 million people consisting of varied ethnic backgrounds, to a country a fraction of the size, population and diversity. Compound this with the fact that at least 62,985,134 Americans are clueless, vapid morons. Comparing how those idiots raise their children to anyone else on earth isn't going to reflect well on the U.S. as a whole, regardless.
joelgrus 9y ago
You can find people pushing back against this in America. My daughter, for instance, attends a Sudbury School, where the kids make the rules and decide how to spend their own time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_school https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_school She loves the school, and in my opinion it's been great for her. But almost everyone I describe the school to finds it terrifically weird and frightening.
- whatshisface 9y ago
  The biggest reason people think this kind of thing is scary? They're remembering back to highschool when they had to march through math while being taught by people who barely understood it. They know they never would have done it without having been forced, and that idea kind of leaks backwards to early education. There's a mythical "self-driven and exploratory" math education out there, but the cold reality is while essentially anyone would be able to supervise a journey through colors and counting only very few have even seen what's good about math. (Moreover, what small fraction of them would be willing to teach teenagers?)
slaunchwise 9y ago
Here's a revolution that actually starts at home. Government policy aside, Americans are free to follow much of the German advice if they choose. Treat your kids as if their lives are primarily theirs, not yours. Let them take risks (for themselves, not others) and bear consequences. Exult with them when those risks are successful. Above all be a role model. This is all really easy to contemplate, but very hard to do because it is isolating. In my suburban parenting experience, we are a competitively paranoid nation. So many people raise their kids as if they're in the twin towers and they are totally going to know when to press that elevator button to get out safely. We do not have to be that way.
cromwellian 9y ago
Every few weeks there’s an article that suggests we either need to copy the European school system or the Korean/Chinese one. This particular author seems to be projecting her own Tiger Mom ideas into most of the country, but I think helicopter parenting is highly regional, and has been different at different times. In more rural areas, among working class or lower class kids, parents were generally less intensively involved and kids have more freedom relative to suburbia IMHO. I was born in 71, and pretty much from age 7 I can remember saying bye to my mom after getting home from school and going out to play all day by myself with no oversight. It is tru these days America d are more paranoid of sex predators, because our news media has hyped up crime over the last two decades and made everyone scared, of course there is some truth to it because crime statistics are generally higher here than in Europe, but again, it’s very regional with rates fluctuating between the safest European levels and looking like Honduras in some spots. Americans do send kids for overnight stays, typically during summer in camps. I sent my kids away for two weeks to sleep outdoors under the stars, with no tech allowed for example. But it usually isn’t run by schools, our schools are too afraid of being sued or protested by parents these days to do anything.

140 points by okket 9y ago

ggm 9y ago

Although written from a us mother's experience I suspect there are echoes for many cultures. "My year of living Danishly" by Helen Russell (sans Child) covers much the same experiential situation for a British couple in Denmark for instance.

gumby 9y ago

I can testify to this. My poor kid was shocked at how rigid the US high school was (after being in a German system), how he could get in trouble for having hints like matches, and how unhappy and stressed his classmates were (and how little they had — he didn’t yet know that “freedom”is a reflexive talisman of American identity). In Germany, as the book review says, even Nursery school kids have access to knives, hot glue guns, splinters, etc. 8 year olds who can weld aren’t uncommon. But those are symptoms of a philosophical difference. Kids learn very strict rules about behavior (stand behind that yellow line next to the U-bahn! Only cross the street with the light!) and are trained (it’s the only word for it) on how to ride a bike safely and follow the traffic laws. Then, given a framework, they have a lot more freedom than in the us...but the framework is quite rigid. In the US kids don’t even learn how to use cutlery, much less how to weld, somtheir world is, ironically, more circumscribed.

reitanqild 9y ago
You said it better than I can, I'll just add another observation: I grew up in another European country. We were allowed to roam around quite freely, keep knives (we even collected and made our own) and even practice with the air rifle since we were kids. However - we were taught the gun rules so thoroughly that I will still get annoyed when I see people waving guns around, even in a movie - for the longest time my dad refused to buy toy weapons, and to the degree that we managed to get hold of one we were not allowed to point it at others, making it kind of useless. - and yes, there were rules for the knives as well
- mgkimsal 9y ago
  Can't speak for everywhere in the US, but I know growing up in the 70s kids with knives and air rifles wouldn't have been an outrageous thing. Friends of mine had knives (scouting, for one), and others had air rifles. "roaming the streets" brandishing knives might not be the language I'd use to describe my friends growing up, but it wasn't uncommon. That was only 40 years ago.
  - briandear 9y ago
    When I grew up in the 1980s, I had knives and very powerful air rifles. Kids used to have a lot more independence in the US.
    - garettmd 9y ago
      I've been noticing this as well after reading these comments. I'm starting to think the current environment we're regarding kids and weapons is a newer phenomenon, probably as a result of all the school shootings and other mass killings.
- krylon 9y ago
  My experience was pretty much the same. My parents had no problem with me owning toy guns, but if I pointed one even in the general direction of another person, I got a stern lecture. My mother, who was a police officer (now retired) brought her gun home on a few occasions, and by that time all the stern toy-gun-lectures had sunken in so deep I found myself reluctant to even go near the thing, e.g. to pick up something lying next to it. Later, I found out that the gun had never been loaded while inside our house. Did not even matter really, I would not have touched it even if I had known that.
- arethuza 9y ago
  My son was taught how to handle military style guns at a UK school by dedicated staff who were former members of the Army - they took handling of guns, training and physical security very seriously.
lkrubner 9y ago
I was in Germany this summer. My friend and I went to visit her parents. Her parents wanted me to see a historic town nearbye. We got in the car. The father drove down the road at 190 kilometers per hour. The other cars were also going fast. I saw cars at an intersection make turns, in front of other cars, that I would never do in the USA, because I would never trust the other drivers to behave correctly. But in Germany the drivers are very well trained. My friend got her driver's license in Germany when she was an adult. It was very expensive and she had to go through several courses. She had to prove that she could drive at night and during the day, and in a dense urban center, and also out on the highways, away from any cities. She was given multiple tests. It was a serious training effort. This is the paradox of the American emphasis on freedom. The attitude tends to be juvenile. The American mindset, at its crudest, is something like, "You got to give me a car, man, because I'm free, man, I've got freedom, so give me a the right to drive man, authority sucks, man, the government sucks, I'm free so I can drive, you can't stop me, man." So the drivers are untrained, so the government responds by treating all drivers as if they are badly behaving children. In Germany the attitude is "We (the government) will train you very well, and then we will trust you to be adults who can make wise choices." One thing I never saw in Germany: cops hiding behind trees, hoping to catch people who were speeding. Traffic cops are very common in the USA, but basically unknown in Germany, since the major highways don't have speed limits. Another thing I noticed in Germany, where there is a speed limit, people drive that limit, and not 5 kilometers above the speed limit. The drivers make the assumption that the government must have had some good reason for imposing a speed limit.
- reitanqild 9y ago
  Good points! One little addition: > Another thing I noticed in Germany, where there is a speed limit, people drive that limit, and not 5 kilometers above the speed limit. The drivers make the assumption that the government must have had some good reason for imposing a speed limit. I guess the fact that the limits are higher also has some influence on this? I remember a Dutch engineer telling me that when they increased the speed limits years ago the average speed sunk and it was hypothesized that it was (IIRC) because as the limits became more reasonable more people decided to just follow them.
aaronbrethorst 9y ago
“freedom” is a reflexive talisman of American identity well said.
- arethuza 9y ago
  Apologies for the daft question, but what kind of "freedom" are Americans referring to when they say "freedom"? Here in Scotland there is a certain fondness for the term (e.g. in a certain movie but really from the rather splendid Declaration of Arbroath) - but I think most people appreciate that this is all in reference to a war 700 years ago that doesn't have much relevance to our current political situation.
  - candu 9y ago
    That's the "reflexive" part: Americans often think of "freedom" in either an extremely simplistic way ("I can do whatever I want, whenever I want! Up yours, government! Instant gratification all the way! Free speech means I can say whatever asinine thing I want, anywhere and anytime, without giving a crap about others!") or a nationalist / jingoist way ("we have freedom and they don't! USA! USA!"). (Of course, not everyone conceptualizes "freedom" this way in the US, but it's a depressingly common approach - especially where any sort of political discourse is concerned.)
    - abakker 9y ago
      The reflexive part is that any time our personal space (emotional, mental, or physical) is threatened, it is a reflex to retaliate with "you are violating my freedom" style response. To ideas that threaten: "You can't make me think that way, I am free to think as I want" To feelings of discomfort: "It's a free country, I shouldn't have to feel this way" To physical space: "this is me or my property, I can do what I want with it" Obviously, when taken in extremes this results in polarization, mischaracterization, and ignorance. Taken responsibly, it is also not appreciably different from any place with a bill of rights. To americans, I would level the criticism that we use it as a crutch and an excuse, more than an ethos, as evidenced that most appeals to freedom are also appeals to the value of self interest.
vim_wannabe 9y ago
>Nursery school kids have access to knives, hot glue guns, splinters, etc. Maybe this has something to do with the school getting into big trouble when something does happen. I mean we have all heard of legends of the cat and the microwave oven. I guess companies and organizations just get sued over ridiculous things in the US?
jacquesm 9y ago
> 8 year olds who can weld aren’t uncommon. Did you really mean welding? I know some 8 year olds that can solder but I've yet to see one that could weld and I only taught my eldest to weld when he was 13 or so.
walshemj 9y ago
They did not have matches for chemistry class? I certainly did in the 6th form (last two years of school) in the Uk
jancsika 9y ago
> Then, given a framework, they have a lot more freedom than in the us... You're dealing with two (probably incompatible) types of freedom. The freedom you're talking about is the freedom a parent has to leave their kids in a room with a turntable because their children know not to play with things that aren't designed to be toys because they may be delicate and could break. The freedom you're comparing it to is the freedom a child has to put their hands on a turntable and scratch from an infinite number of rhythmic possibilities to create a new, dynamic form of music where there was previously a single, static form before. And while you could amend the framework and make a bunch of edge cases for historical shifts in thinking, you cannot make a framework that leaves room for the future shifts because we don't know what those are yet.

okket 9y ago

May also be of interest: A short (12 mins) documentary about a school in New Zealand where are no rules during recess. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1Y0cuufVGI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1Y0cuufVGI

Mashimo 9y ago
Here is also a nice short (11 mins) documentary about a kindergarten in Denmark, also from CBS Dateline. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jkiij9dJfcw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jkiij9dJfcw
telesilla 9y ago
The last 15 seconds is brilliant. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1Y0cuufVGI&t=11m40s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1Y0cuufVGI&t=11m40s A young girl gets stuck up a tree, and asks for help which is (kindly) denied, the caretaker watching from a distance. She gets herself down, and promptly climbs up the tree again. The childhood we should all have!

Mashimo 9y ago

>Later that year, Sophia and the rest of her Kita class take part in a gleefully parent-free sleepover. A sleepover! At school! For a 4-year-old! German here, can someone explain to me what's weird/bad/uncommon about this? It's still supervised.

telesilla 9y ago
Here is a list of common parenting fears in the US, pretty much a collection of unlikely scenarios: https://www.today.com/news/12-tips-easing-your-parent-noia-wbna41739120 https://www.today.com/news/12-tips-easing-your-parent-noia-w... But what about the real stuff, like I'm afraid my child will grow up without the ability to make good choices? I'm afraid my child will inherit my own fears? I'm afraid my child will not come to me when they need help? But these fears don't sell advertising on TV shows about abduction or pricy childcare centres and schools. The US is so deregulated and underfunded that it's a system of businesses doing anything they can to slowly tug at your wallet, which seems to have lead to the current day environment of fear.
reificator 9y ago
In North America any adult that is not the parent is a potential kidnapping rapist, doubly so if they're male. In Canada, child services were called on a mother of three for letting her children play outside in their fenced backyard while watching from the window.[1] Humans aren't equipped to really comprehend a 24-hour global news cycle. Things that are common and deadly are deemphasized and things that are rare are raised to panic inducing levels of fear. Dangers to children get extra attention. [1]: https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/manitoba-cfs-will-not-erase-file-of-mother-who-lets-kids-play-in-backyard-1.2871900 https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/manitoba-cfs-will-not-e...
- Mashimo 9y ago
  >In North America any adult that is not the parent is a potential kidnapping rapist But the adults at the sleepover are the same as the adults that watch the kids during daytime :/ >In Canada, child services were called on a mother of three for letting her children play outside in their fenced backyard while watching from the window. When I played in the sandbox my father could not see me from the house. Just our dog, and the dog would watch me :) So if he saw the dog he know I was ok.

gambiting 9y ago

On the other hand, in my experience(and I welcome German people to chime in and dispel this notion), German child raising is very hands-off and devoid of any warmth. Yes, kids are given a lot of freedom, but are also expected to keep to their own devices vast majority of the time. When the parent comes back home, they don't think about doing activities with the child - quick chat about how is school, and then don't bother me for the rest of the evening. And it's not bad parenting or parents not caring - the people I met genuienly expect kids to be able to occupy their own time and the notion that they need family support apart from the material one is almost slightly weird to them. From my observations, it results in people who are fantastically independent and confident, but who can also be emotionally distant to everything. Again, this is just an anecdote of my own experience.

leethargo 9y ago
This might be true for older generations, but I would say it's less for young parents today. My in-laws were apparently quite cold/distant to their kids, but my parents were not, and I try not to be either ;-)
- thomasz 9y ago
  As a rule of thumb, the parents of our baby boomers were a generation of repressed, damaged, emotionally and/or physically violent wrecks who demanded absolute respect and obedience for suffering through a war they themselves started. All that without being aware of the irony in the slightest.
  - sime2009 9y ago
    To be honest the parents of the baby boomers would have been old enough to suffer through and fight the war, but wars tend to be started by the older generation who hold the political power.
  - chopin 9y ago
    You would like to look up which the years of baby boomers were and how old their parents must have been. They certainly did not start the war; they suffered from it. I am of the baby boomer generation, my father was 17 at the end of the war. My parents demanded respect. That's a good thing, imho. Otherwise, I enjoyed a freedom kids nowadays can only dream of. I never felt any lack of love from my parents.

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Tade0 9y ago

One thing I would like to point out is that this is rather an European thing than specifically German. Aside from playing with fire in school many of these experiences were my own and were the norm.

jernfrost 9y ago

Much the same could be said about native Norway in comparison to the US or UK. There is a documentary about identical twins from China. One ends up in Norway the other in the US. They meet many years later. You see quite radically different child raising. Norwegians focus on independence and freedom for the child. The Americans focus on lots of grownup controlled activities. My feeling is Norwegians focus on independence while Americans focus on ambition. Americans are more focused on their childrens enrichment and making them perform. I notice e.g. from American relatives how much earlier they get school work, tests and academic work. Norwegian childhood is more play and social interaction oriented. We focus inteaching children self control. When I came to the US I was surprised how out of controll American teenagers are. They don’t seem to function without lots of rules and regulations. They don’t seem used to regulating and controlling themselves. I think this creates a society were nobody fully trust each other and compensate with lots of strict rules. E.g. American police seem a lot more authoritarian than police in nordic countries.

mercutio2 9y ago
Your sociological explanations may be accurate, but it’s probably worth noting that very low police:population ratios in the US combined with a gargantuan supply of unrestricted handgun possession in the hands of the populous is also a strong contributor to bunker mentality from the police. [Edit: I see that Norway has a similarly low police:population ratio, so that observation isn’t really relevant for comparisons with Norway or the rest of Scandinavia. My error!] Also, Norwegian border patrol agents seemed pretty damned authoritarian in my experience, so my personal contact with law enforcement doesn’t match yours for the respective countries. /end anecdote
- microtherion 9y ago
  Why do you consider the police:population ratio in the US "very low"? It seems it's pretty much middle of the pack, and arguably on the high side for Western Democracies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_number_of_police_officers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependen...

redleggedfrog 9y ago

This, to a lesser degree, can be found in the United States, if you can find the right place. I know because I speak from experience. I raised two sons in a community that allowed them exercise personal freedom and benefit from a scholastic experience similar to what is discussed in the article (I have not read the book). Ours is not the only such place, as I have friends who have found them as well. Kids get to school on their own from all over town, by bike, bus, or walk, even in the early grades. Summers are pretty much a cacophony of kid activity until 10PM (or later). No one thinks twice about kids being out on their own. My sons regaled me of stories of setting things on fire in chemistry class, field trips where kids fell in the creek (termed Lessons in Hypothermia), and the cool tools available in jewelry class, of all things. It would seem to me these communities are smaller (10-20K) and politically progressive. Ours has a tax just to fund schools. You have to have a town that is willing to invest in the children and can attract good teachers. Even the non-secular people are fairly progressive as well. I couldn't really have asked for much better living in the United States. Both sons are off to college and happy as can be, so I am grateful they got the community upbringing that they did. One of the things that might be considered a drawback is preparation for the "real-world." When my oldest went off to college he had a difficult time adjusting to people. The lack of self control, respect for the law, willful ignorance, and just plain meanness, was surprising to him. It makes it difficult to try and nudge him to experience the greater world at large. Another drawback is expense. The cost of living is high. A house here is fully $100,000-$150,000 more than a similar house in a town 15 miles away. This creates a dichotomy where families want to live here, but often can't afford it. Low to mid income housing is a politically hot topic.

rayiner 9y ago
i don’t think “politically progressive” is a determinative. The DC suburbs skew extremely left, by are oppressive as hell for children. Some parents recently got CPS sicced on them for letting their 8 year old walk less than a mile to school.
- redleggedfrog 9y ago
  While I'm sure there are lots of politically progressive places that are problems, I can't imagine having a community similar to ours without it. We're an island of progressive surrounded by numerous similar sized towns that are decidedly conservative and have more community problems and are less attractive academically. But they're less expensive to live in, too.

russellbeattie 9y ago

Another article comparing a geographically huge country of 323 million people consisting of varied ethnic backgrounds, to a country a fraction of the size, population and diversity. Compound this with the fact that at least 62,985,134 Americans are clueless, vapid morons. Comparing how those idiots raise their children to anyone else on earth isn't going to reflect well on the U.S. as a whole, regardless.

joelgrus 9y ago

You can find people pushing back against this in America. My daughter, for instance, attends a Sudbury School, where the kids make the rules and decide how to spend their own time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_school https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_school She loves the school, and in my opinion it's been great for her. But almost everyone I describe the school to finds it terrifically weird and frightening.

whatshisface 9y ago
The biggest reason people think this kind of thing is scary? They're remembering back to highschool when they had to march through math while being taught by people who barely understood it. They know they never would have done it without having been forced, and that idea kind of leaks backwards to early education. There's a mythical "self-driven and exploratory" math education out there, but the cold reality is while essentially anyone would be able to supervise a journey through colors and counting only very few have even seen what's good about math. (Moreover, what small fraction of them would be willing to teach teenagers?)

slaunchwise 9y ago

Here's a revolution that actually starts at home. Government policy aside, Americans are free to follow much of the German advice if they choose. Treat your kids as if their lives are primarily theirs, not yours. Let them take risks (for themselves, not others) and bear consequences. Exult with them when those risks are successful. Above all be a role model. This is all really easy to contemplate, but very hard to do because it is isolating. In my suburban parenting experience, we are a competitively paranoid nation. So many people raise their kids as if they're in the twin towers and they are totally going to know when to press that elevator button to get out safely. We do not have to be that way.

cromwellian 9y ago

Every few weeks there’s an article that suggests we either need to copy the European school system or the Korean/Chinese one. This particular author seems to be projecting her own Tiger Mom ideas into most of the country, but I think helicopter parenting is highly regional, and has been different at different times. In more rural areas, among working class or lower class kids, parents were generally less intensively involved and kids have more freedom relative to suburbia IMHO. I was born in 71, and pretty much from age 7 I can remember saying bye to my mom after getting home from school and going out to play all day by myself with no oversight. It is tru these days America d are more paranoid of sex predators, because our news media has hyped up crime over the last two decades and made everyone scared, of course there is some truth to it because crime statistics are generally higher here than in Europe, but again, it’s very regional with rates fluctuating between the safest European levels and looking like Honduras in some spots. Americans do send kids for overnight stays, typically during summer in camps. I sent my kids away for two weeks to sleep outdoors under the stars, with no tech allowed for example. But it usually isn’t run by schools, our schools are too afraid of being sued or protested by parents these days to do anything.