15 ms·

Upwork banned my account for 'being dishonest'

435 points by ribice 9y ago

rexreed 9y ago
I've had nothing but bad experiences with Upwork.
- justherefortart 9y ago
  I've never heard anything but bad experiences. Why do people even bother with it?
  - AnkhMorporkian 9y ago
    Because it's a way to make money while you're between jobs while still using the skills you're good at. Not everyone is great at networking, nor are they necessarily in a place where they could pull good clients even if they were. It's a shit sandwich, but in tough times, that's all you can find to eat.
    - justherefortart 9y ago
      Fair enough, this is probably why I always have side gigs.
    - tcd 9y ago
      > Because it's a way to make money You're not making money if they're refunding the client. This article and people in this thread suggest it's a terrible way to make money and to AVOID at all costs. Or, you can use this company and I look forward to reading more of these articles.
      - AnkhMorporkian 9y ago
        Yes, it's worked out terribly for some people, but everyone I know who have done upwork jobs on the side have had next to zero problems. I don't use them anymore, as I've gotten out of the tech industry and became a professional baker instead, but I get the feeling that we on HN tend to hear a few horror stories, and ignore the thousands of success stories. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be changes made, but anecdotal evidence does not instantly justify a witchhunt and boycott.
        itwy 9y ago
        As a professional baker, what do you do differently from traditional bakers?
        AnkhMorporkian 9y ago
        I get paid for it. Edit: For a slightly less sardonic answer, I prep an innumerable number of different items every day, and they all have to look near perfect. I decided that while programming was a passion of mine, I wanted to do it on my own terms. I wanted to create projects that I found interesting. Baking though? If I want to make something at work that I find interesting, I can experiment and do that, and my boss encourages me. So I still code, but I stopped doing it for money and started doing it to contribute to society. Baking I do for fun and money. It was a later in life career change, but I'm much happier for it.
        Cyberdog 9y ago
        So is there, like, a Baker News out there somewhere?
        AnkhMorporkian 9y ago
        There isn't enough dough for that.
  - hobozilla 9y ago
    I'm a programmer, occasionally I use it to find people to help me with side projects. It seems to work pretty well, once you have the interview process down you can find some good people on there.
    - artmageddon 9y ago
      Got any tips on how to get going on a site like Upwork? I'm not sure I tried that one before, but I had a horrible experience on Freelancer.com and I've sorta shied away from those since then. I have enough on my plate with grad school and a full-time job at the moment, but if I ever find myself in dire straits I'd like to have options.
      - scardine 9y ago
        Charge bellow market rate in order to build reputation than brace for the day some dick will complain about some bullshit and they pull the rug under your feet.
      - hackermailman 9y ago
        Toptal as a freelancer for full or part-time I find better, even if it comes with all sorts of other issues like their opaque refund policy. There's other freelancer sites around too that are similar, usually posting on remote job boards like remoteok, weworkremotely, jobspresso ect. Surprisingly making a post on your local Craigslist you want contract, P/T work pans out too if some local company decides to contract you but I wouldn't work for individuals there since you'll likely not get paid. There's also here, the monthly freelancer for hire post.
- gort 9y ago
  Because of the site/system/admins, or the people who use it?
  - rexreed 9y ago
    Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Bad site. Bad admins. Bad System. Bad providers. Bad Buyers. It's a sandwich of crap from top to bottom. I prefer to find, engage, pay, and manage my contractors direct. Do I get burned from time to time and have a hard time finding good contractors? yes. But I'd rather do that than have my time, money, and reputation wasted by something I have no control over.
- campuscodi 9y ago
  This is what happens when you outsource customer support to someone outside your company's culture.
nraynaud 9y ago
I think google and PayPal have shown every companies in the valley that you can be unreliable and stonewall your users without hindering economic success.
- adventured 9y ago
  That's not actually the context. They're being unreliable and stonewalling an extraordinarily tiny percentage of their massive userbases. That's precisely why it doesn't matter to them in a business sense.
- wand3r 9y ago
  While I agree that those companies and many others have become quite successful taking this tact, it was really only successful because of those businesses are nearly monopolies. Obviously this is similar to ISPs. Upwork competes with tons of other boards directly as well as LinkedIn, Indeed/Job Boards, Craigslist, general networking and other preferences (not working an additional part time job). Also, similar to recruiting these places need to attract top talent consistently not just warm-bodies. Highly skilled workers can afford to exercise other options much better.
  - shimon 9y ago
    You're right, but upwork is the dominant marketplace for low-cost contract labor. It is the merger of what was previously a duopoly in the space (elance and odesk) and the network effects are strong. So maybe it's not quite as monopolistic as the others you mentioned but it has clearly (and rationally) chosen to compromise fairness to its users to a degree that it likely could not in a more competitive market.
- Xephyrous 9y ago
  PayPal froze my account a few years ago for "suspicious activity". I still don't know what that activity was. Support gave me the same sort of runaround non-answers as described in this article. I finally got to talk to someone on the phone and had an exchange along these lines: me: "Is there any way I can continue to use paypal?" paypal: "You can open up a new bank account and then use that to register a different paypal account" me: "..."
rakibtg 9y ago
What are some good alternatives from your experience?
lettergram 9y ago
This is personally why I’m of the opinion, why we should always try to avoid as much centralization as we can. Host your own blog, run your own systems, use distributed software. I even keep two payment systems available, just in case. I get gigs often enough (as often as I want) mostly just through people reading my blog[1] (where I can advertise when available) [1] https://austingwalters.com https://austingwalters.com
- slenk 9y ago
  But when you're just starting out, how can you get your name out there? Sure, you can write blog posts and craft some good SEO, but who is going to trust someone without reviews from a centralized source?
  - Jeremy1026 9y ago
    Centralized sources have the same problem though. Almost every job on upwork is posted with a requirement of a job score of 90+. You can only get a job score by completing something on their platform and getting a positive review. OP said he did a project for $10, which for most freelancers is maybe 5 minutes of work at their standard rate. If you're going to work for free, might as well do it in your own circle and build out from there.
- s73v3r_ 9y ago
  Here's the thing with hosting your own blog: I write articles only once in a great while. I'd be fine with hosting my own blog, but it would look rather empty. Using something like Medium, it doesn't make my writing look so sparse.
jrs95 9y ago
Wow. This has to be some of the worst customer support I’ve ever seen. The only thing I experienced that was worse was American Express cancelling my account, telling the credit bureaus I was dead, not allowing me to pay them, and hanging up on me when I called them. Eventually I managed to find out that they sold the account and got ahold of who had it now, but they wouldn’t accept my payment because I wasn’t really dead, and had to transfer my account back to American Express. After finally resolving this and paying them in full, they report to the bureaus that I was late several months on my payments, and any attempt to appeal this has just been ignored. So I just have to wait for it to fall off my report. Until then, I’m paying over 12% interest on a fucking auto loan.
- gargravarr 9y ago
  Bureaucracy makes absolutely no provision for the correction of mistakes. I dread ever having to talk to large companies. They're much too eager to blame the customer for any problem regardless of reason, just so long as they're no longer their problem.
- DenisM 9y ago
  Perhaps a small-claims lawsuit could recompense your suffering? There might be some law that absolves them from liability, but they would have to show up to argue the point, and they can’t send in the lawyers.
  - jrs95 9y ago
    I have considered this, but it seemed not worth the risk given the expense of a lawyer. I’m not an expert on this at all though, so I could be wrong. I had mostly assumed the odds of winning something like that were low because what they did seems to be legitimate even though it sucks.
    - jungletek 9y ago
      https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/small-claims-court-faq.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/small-claims-court-f...
jermaustin1 9y ago
As a person who "buys time" on upwork quite frequently, I regularly get sent links to 3rd party sites housing example work and portfolios. And almost all of my developers will send me private repos on github. My writers will submit work on Google Docs so we can collaborate. Rarely do I get any worker who doesn't "violate" the TOS, because the TOS is a POS that hinders mine and the freelancer's business.
- gnode 9y ago
  The great thing about a TOS which everyone violates, is that it can be arbitrarily enforced, for any unspoken actual reason.
  - wowtip 9y ago
    It would be nice if there was an "easy" way of proving this, and regulations making void TOS the company does not enforce in a majority of cases.
  - jotm 9y ago
    Learning the best tricks from government law making.
  - albertgoeswoof 9y ago
    Sort of, if you have the $$$ and the damages are worth chasing in reality you would take them to court. Demonstrating that everyone else is routinely breaking the TOS, and that the company knew about it, would be a very strong piece of evidence in your case
    - Analemma_ 9y ago
      It really wouldn't, at least with the laws as they exist now. Upwork just says "private company, at-will service, voluntary association", and they win.
    - gnode 9y ago
      Trouble is, almost nobody cares to spare that much money, least of all the typical gig economy servant.
nuggien 9y ago
Almost 100% positive upwork somehow magically unsuspends his account after seeing this thread. When will these companies ever learn that it’s not okay to misbehave and quietly “fix” things when publicity gets bad?
- jclulow 9y ago
  Generally only when it becomes economically or legally impossible to continue doing so.
  - codegladiator 9y ago
    So never ?
- ribice 9y ago
  You're correct, they did that an hour ago.
  - dvfjsdhgfv 9y ago
    That's absolutely unbelievable! It looks like the times of civilized conversations are over, and public shaming is the only strategy that works for companies like these... Facebook, Google, you name it - they don't care about you, but once your submission on HN gathers enough traction, your problem magically disappears. That's ridiculous.
saluki 9y ago
Sorry to hear about your experience with upwork. Sounds like you might have still had PHP in your profile from years ago and when you said you don't do PHP development in the video chat that was enough to trigger a suspension. Honestly you're probably better off you ended your upwork journey after only a couple gigs. I did a few projects on elance years ago but it was always a hassle and tough to find good projects/clients. It sounds like you are providing good value/quality work to clients. Look to your network to find Go projects instead. Become more active in the community. Keep blogging. Connect with other Go developers, ask around if anyone knows anyone needing a Go developer. Lots of times developers don't have time to handle all the projects/clients they run in to and will hand them off to someone else they respect in the community. You're going to find better projects/clients and higher paying side work that way than using upwork. And not have to deal with their hassle, fees and issues like this. This might be a little bit of a gray area since it violates their ToS but since your account is suspended anyway if you have the emails of the two clients you worked with you could contact them and contract with them on new projects directly. (Don't mention here that you are doing this in case your usernames are the same on HN/upwork) Especially the last one where you completed the gig, he paid you a higher amount than agreed on and then upwork refunded your fee for work completed. He should be open to moving forward contracting directly. Good luck finding side work.
- mnw21cam 9y ago
  Or you could take upwork to small claims court.
- kbart 9y ago
  Oh, common on, every time freelancing topics comes up on HN there are at least few comments: "just do networking, it's so easy, and gigs just starts falling from the sky". No, this advice doesn't work well outside of tech hubs or good existing network (from university etc.) In some places developers are few and far between, especially if you are into more specialized, niche areas. Of course, you can try participate in online communities, but it's hard (i.e. good luck getting your first patch into Linux kernel mainline) and time consuming, especially if English is not your first language. Typical Upwork and similar services user is someone from rural Bangladesh, not well-connected MIT graduate working in sexy startup in Silicon Valley.
cryoshon 9y ago
their entire business model is making sure that their users never get a fair deal by communicating directly with the people they find via upwork. is it really so surprising that they are fucking abysmal at customer service? my experiences with them are 100% bad, but nowhere near as bad as what the OP article discusses.
- dvfjsdhgfv 9y ago
  I never used Upwork and and wondering - how on Earth can they make sure that I deliver the code to the client, and that there is no information in the code that could be used to identify me. Apart from that, the identity of the person is their unique brand, it guarantees integrity (or a lack of it), it allows to check one's portfolio and verify the skills of the developer - for example by looking at their public contributions. When you take all this away, what are you left with?
  - kuschku 9y ago
    > When you take all this away, what are you left with? A "mechanical Turk", as amazon would call it, a "Code Monkey" as Jonathan Coulton sang in his song. A completely exchangeable person, an employee as a service. How the code is written, who does it, is entirely irrelevant. Entirely replaceable, with no recourse for the "contractor". The main component of the gig economy is exactly this, completely disenfranchising the worker by commoditizing work. You try to negotiate higher pay, you simply get replaced.
    - crankylinuxuser 9y ago
      > The main component of the gig economy is exactly this, completely disenfranchising the worker. It's even more insidious than that. Previously, it's workers came together to create unions, to prevent abuses by the company owners. Go back far enough, and companies hired hit squads in part of the US government to kill union leaders and bust strikes. Then, unions were demonized. They "enabled lazy and bad workers, and punishing good workers" - I thing I got the root of the arguments used. Then comes the gig economy. We have a company, who "hires" employees, but then pits each employee against each other. Doing so then puts each employee in the position of "I'm against employee #2, and #3, and #4". This poisons the pot for any chances of coming together, and fixing wrongs. And it also easily allows what we would have called "scabs" to immediately enter if there is a union forming.
deleted 9y ago
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CPLX 9y ago
This is one of my least favorite innovations of Silicon Valley, the opaque, confusing, no stated reasons practice of banning users. I totally understand why things developed the way they did. The internet is huge and full of bad actors, and a nascent service is in real existential danger of being overwhelmed and swamped by fraud. If you tell bad actors why you're banning them and spend valuable time communicating with them it can put you out of business early on. But like in so many other arenas, the Valley mentality hasn't adopted to the fact that they are no longer underdog rebels besieged by barbarians on one side and big scary rich corporations on the other site. The reality is now that these companies are the ruling class, and the users are the general population. And people rely on these services and base their lives on them. Arbitrary and capriciously depriving people of access to these platforms without any kind of due process rights isn't OK any more. There's a reason we have consumer protection laws, why someone decided we needed things like the Montreal Convention and the FDCPA and CPSC and so on. It's axiomatic that we can't trust monopolistic corporations to do right by the little guy. This Silicon Valley mentality is increasingly going to lead to pitchforks, torches, and regulation in the near future, it's an inevitability. Rightly so.
- tankenmate 9y ago
  I don't think it is right to regard UpWork as a "nascent service". They have had plenty of time to make better policies if they felt it was necessary, but it's hard to assume other than it is not "worth it" to them. UpWork's antecedents Elance and oDesk have been around for 18 years and 15 years respectively. From outside observations it is not hard to come to the conclusion that they care little beyond "working the numbers", as long as their sales pipe is full they probably won't change. As you suggest bringing this to your local trade body and making a formal complaint is probably the way to go. It will take a long time and a lot of complaints to get there though. In the mean time avoid them, both the buy and sell side.
  - adventured 9y ago
    I think it's very clear the parent was not referring to Upwork as a nascent service. They were speaking generally about the process that leads to a culture of ingrained behavior over time, which starts from that nascent service context. You can derive that is very likely the case based on the intelligence and composure of the rest of their post. You can also derive it directly from the full paragraph text, which is not referring specifically to Upwork, rather it is referring to Silicon Valley broadly, and why "things" developed the way they did with how SV firms have tended to treat customers/users.
ancarda 9y ago
>How is it possible to propagate a session id in PHP What the hell does that even mean? I write PHP for a living and this makes no sense to me. Do they mean retrieve the ID via session_id() and pass it onto a page, like in a GET parameter?
- caiob 9y ago
  I believe she meant to start the session on every page. E.g.: `session_start()` But you're right. The question is confusing even for experienced PHP devs.
- Hydraulix989 9y ago
  I think using cookies?
  - Someone1234 9y ago
    There's no real answer since the term "propagate" can mean one of several things. For example are we propagating the session ID from the server to client or client to server? And in both cases there are several answers which apply. PHP Dev or not, that question is too vague to be answerable. You'd have to ask additional questions just to understand the question itself.
    - Hydraulix989 9y ago
      As you would expect, Upwork doesn't have the resources for people that really know PHP to be doing these verifications. While we all agree that the question was poorly-worded, anyone with decent communication skills (a much-needed skill for people doing the kinds of client-facing software engineering jobs that are on Upwork) can easily recognize this and work with the non-technical person conducting the interview to arrive at the "right" answer even though it "DOES NOT COMPUTE" to the overly-pedantic "language lawyer" in some. I remember someone angrily posting on HN about failing an HR phone screening because they tried arguing with the interviewer that Linux was not Unix, but was Unix-like (a sign that the interviewee clearly knew the one-word _expected_ answer that was on the interviewer's answer key). Just answer the very simple question and move on, instead of trying to show off or whatever. Part of functioning in the workplace means communicating effectively and professionally (by not being condescending, for example) with other people that may have different skill sets. The best engineers are very cognizant of this.
pi-rat 9y ago
Funny they're so quick on the block button now! Someone once created an account on upwork in my name (based on my github probably), took me ages to get that one shut down..
orasis 9y ago
Overall I get value out of Upwork as a buyer, but a full 60% of the applicants I get are scam bait-and-switch accounts. I’ve figured out how to navigate it but it doesn’t surprise me that they’d be strict on their TOS.
- sparrish 9y ago
  This has been my experience as a client as well. Fell prey to a couple of "say we're doing the work but we ain't" devs that thankfully UpWork refunded so I'm glad to hear they're cracking down on scam accounts. Sad to hear that legit accounts are getting caught up in the process though.
ransom1538 9y ago
In my experience there are two types of jobs on the system. Quick simple projects and almost-full-time-job type work. With simple projects it just isn't worth the contractors time - the amount of time wasted in non billable hours: messages, specs, understanding, setup - just doesn't make anything efficient. Sure, bill for the client meetings - but watch your ratings crash. With the almost-full-time-job type work - it's smarter to just yank the person out of upwork and not pay the crazy upwork fees then develop a real relationship. Unfortunately, how contractors get really screwed is when they run into a real asshole client. Once this happens they are reported to upwork (for not doing free work usually). Good contractors that worked for us were routinely banned. [I only have been on the client side.]
- shimon 9y ago
  Is it easy to move outside of upwork for the financial side, and still have some recourse on both sides? If I'm a US client working with a contractor in Russia, I'd be concerned about taxes, currency conversion, etc. I don't really understand all of these challenges, but I assume upwork has them handled. Is there something else I could use that would take a smaller cut, once trust around the actual work has been established?
  - notdang 9y ago
    You can use what upwork uses: payoneer.com The contractor in Russia that is registered on payoneer can issue an invoice to you, with an US bank account number.
  - ransom1538 9y ago
    Ironically, working with someone overseas makes taxes simple. There are no with-holdings. You just wire money. Couldn't be more simple. If the person is a US citizen, it's a circus. "As a general rule, wages earned by nonresident aliens for services performed outside of the United States for any employer are foreign source income and therefore are not subject to reporting and withholding of U.S. federal income tax." https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/persons-employed-abroad-by-a-us-person https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/pers...
robodale 9y ago
I've used and spent plenty on Upwork, and when they were called oDesk. Is there an alternative out there that (1) I can post a price for a job, (2) interview/critique candidates,(3) easily go back and forth as the job is in progress, (4) approve, "complete", possibly rate, and pay the person doing the work....all without Upwork's bullshit?
- scardine 9y ago
  Looks like a good side project. I want to build a platform that charges only for arbitration and escrow. I want to build a video interview system where you can select the questions you are interested and it will compile a 2X compact video with the answers for speeding up screening. Than the system uses AI to find and recommend candidates like the ones you rank better. I want to fix remote work and freelancing.
User_424 9y ago
Upwork is horrible. They take on average 25% of your pay, on top of taxes. Bad customer support and its flooded with low-cost labor.
- mrhappyunhappy 9y ago
  Ya, I end up declining 99% of all offers on up work. I'd say very few are actually good projects with good people behind them. Most are assholes who treat freelancers like garbage.
  - mfoy_ 9y ago
    Honestly it literally sounds like that is the business model. "Let's build a platform that exploits desperate developers..."
crankylinuxuser 9y ago
And, the user is playing "HN Customer Roulette" by hoping they will get enough traction here to garner a fair response. When you're a serf on another's platform, you're subject to their rules. What rules are they? "Does their automated system and people like you?" Is it unfair? Yes. Is it bad all around? Yes. Is there anything you can do about it? Yes - posting to social media and naming and shaming. That's it.
nebulous1 9y ago
It's hard to see how they can justify reversing the payments on jobs he's already done. That said I do have a couple of issues with his decisions here: > Before starting the verification process, I completed the second gig That seems ... optimistic! > She talked a bit more, but I could barely understand her anything due to connection issues. > ... > “That went far easier and quicker than I expected. Lovely.” Seriously? Other than that his experience does seem extremely frustrating.
bredren 9y ago
Upwork is bad. Their fraud prevention has been a problem for a long time. They have had major basic system stability problems, and even data privacy issues. It is like the lumbering giant of craigslist except far less benevolent.
- odonnellryan 9y ago
  I had a decently good account on Upwork. I had a few jobs on there that developed into great long-term contracts. One time, me and a client logged into Upwork to close a contract out on the same network. We both got banned :)
z3t4 9y ago
I believe software is a market for lemons (1). You don't know what quality you will get so on places like Upwork people are not prepared to pay much. Even though there's a shortage of developers, it's almost impossible to find freelance work, and there's plenty of people exploiting those who work basically for free just to get a good rep. And at the same time there's people paying outrageous prices eg $100,000 for a simple web site.
redleggedfrog 9y ago
Actually, the only thing surprising about the article is how little this poor fellow is getting paid for the work.
- Flozzin 9y ago
  No crap. $15? I have to imagine he spent at least a couple hours on it. Even $50 seems like it's not worth the time. I really doubt he's spending less than 2 hours on any of this. Not to mention just finding and applying...
  - ribice 9y ago
    You're correct. I did it more for the reviews, so that I can charge appropriate rates later on. I spent probably 2-3 hours for that $15 (and 3 hours more for additional $30) and then about 2 hours for that $100 (expected $50). These are all excluding messaging, just actual work.
- ribice 9y ago
  It was more for the reviews than the money. I assume after having few positive reviews, it's easier to get higher paying jobs. It's a standard guide when joining new freelance sites.
- kdmytro 9y ago
  I'm sure the author took those low-budget projects to get at least some reviews. The rate gets better as you fill your profile and get good reviews, otherwise the customer will have to choose between 10 identical profiles (except that the names are different).
martingordon 9y ago
I had my Venmo account temporarily terminated a few weeks ago. I didn't do anything other than be the recipient of a $139.99 payment from a stranger "for laundry". My account was unfrozen, but I think it was out of sheer luck more than anything. A less savvy person would have likely taken the notification at face value and left it at that. I searched around for what to do in this situation and came across many reports of this type of scam, where an unknown sender "accidentally" sends payment, request a payment from me for the money back, and simultaneously cancels the transaction. I did nothing and hoped the issue would resolve itself. Two days later, I get an email saying my Venmo account has been frozen "due to recent activity that appears to be a violation of our User Agreement." After reaching out to Venmo via chat, I had a similar interaction as the article. They told me my account was frozen, that my case was being handled by an Account Specialist, and that would be in touch via email. The next day I got an email from the Account Specialist saying my actions and activity were in violation of the ToS and that my account was permanently deactivated. I reached out to support again and played dumb, saying I received payment from a stranger but can't send the money back because my balance didn't go up. Support again said they couldn't do anything, that my account was frozen by an Account Specialist, and that they would be in touch via email. The Account Specialist sent me an email saying the payment was refunded and that I should reach out to the sender directly, to which I responded that I didn't know who the sender was and I assumed the payments were made in error and asking them to confirm that I had to take no further action. They responded with a form email saying my account had been unfrozen. "However, please keep in mind that the state of your account can be revised if your transaction history raises flags on our system in the future."
- kuschku 9y ago
  And this is why it’s so scary that our societies are moving towards using such private companies for basically core infrastructure of society. If the government fucks up, I have an easy way of appealing, everything is clearly defined. If venmo or PayPal fucks up, I have to sue over country lines, argue an international case, and still have no recourse.
  - vkou 9y ago
neelkadia 9y ago
Upwork banned me too. some offensive words
gspetr 9y ago
Upwork is pretty much the worst type of business, very shortsighted, focused only on extracting immediate value at seemingly any cost. Last year's 1175 point post "Why you should never use Upwork"[0] is still as relevant as ever and I don't expect it to change. You should avoid Upwork like the plague. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12773282 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12773282
- debacle 9y ago
  So what are the alternatives for people who want to find contracting work without networking?
  - Slansitartop 9y ago
    > So what are the alternatives for people who want to find contracting work without networking? Not having your own network opens you up to exploitation and poor treatment, because you need the network owner more than she needs you. So, if you want that, you're left looking for an usually ethical company, which will be hard with a high chance of failure. I think people need to be founding more online cooperatives and mutuals.
  - akvadrako 9y ago
    toptal.com seems like one of the better ones, but the best option is probably to join a collective.
    - balfirevic 9y ago
      What is "a collective" in this context?
      - akvadrako 9y ago
        A worker-owned consulting firm, basically. Also called a co-op. You get the benefit of shared clients and administration support, without working for "somebody else". I don't know of any large ones, but I have seen quite a few around.
jitendrac 9y ago
I had freelanced using Odesk before it became Upwork, And I do hold some balance in the account even now. I am inactive(not bidding anymore) on it since 2014. Six months ago from nowhere I got a sudden email about my account suspension. I appealed and try to prove my identity with Government Issued ID card, Academic details even My name in the list of the post-graduates(with no result). They keep on denying to re-activate my account and suggest me to withdraw my money, that I have not yet. I can still browse Upwork, It is becoming more toxic with agressive bidding and way lower quality jobs now a days.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
dbuder 9y ago
They probably hired someone who used to work for Uber.
vbezhenar 9y ago
I'll try to find some remote work soon and I'm interested in upwork alternatives. I've heard a lot of bad things about them and it's risky to depend on that service. But I didn't hear about any big competitors. I'm talking specifically about some small pieces of work, not just remote work, without automatic screenshots and all that nonsense.
- smnscu 9y ago
  Pilot have contacted me last month and I really like their policy. They only do long-term full-time contracts with reliable companies, and have a flat fee of 30% - you can set whatever rate you like. I am happily employed but I feel it's a far cry from services like Toptal who have opaque, allegedly much larger commissions. https://pilot.co/ https://pilot.co/ Some more alternatives: https://github.com/andreis/interview/issues/23 https://github.com/andreis/interview/issues/23 https://github.com/wfhio/awesome-job-boards https://github.com/wfhio/awesome-job-boards
dizzystar 9y ago
I had an upwork and closed it down for exactly what this is about, except that the client blatantly lied about the work I handed over. It was a bad contract, but it was completed despite the various issues involved. I submitted the code and he made a claim that my code did something that is absolutely impossible to do: SQL is not going to affect the browser UI, especially not default settings within the browser. I asked for a screenshot of the "issue" and that never came in. The client also made changes to my code and kept demanding I fix it. I closed down the contract and opened a case, thinking it would be obvious that I did the work as asked and they were very difficult to work with. It was interesting to read the responses. They kept saying they needed more and more features before they agreed the work was done. I said that the contract, as specified in both the post and ensuing messages was done. I never heard these new requests. Throughout the correspondence with upwork, the client kept changing their story, outright contradicting themselves over and over. Upwork, of course, sided with the client over the new feature request they demanded. Apparently, upwork thinks that a contract is infinite work. I pointed out each lie, asked for a screenshot of the impossible bug, and explained the new features (which changed multiple times during the case) would take too long to complete. I lost the case and ended up doing the job for half price. Upwork is optimized to client first, which is just wrong to the workers. I had to pay 20% of my earnings at $50/hr and up, so it's not like I had zero value to the company. I closed down my account over that.
swat535 9y ago
It is foolish to fully rely on UpWork on any other similar websites without strong legal representation in place. Threatening legal action against UpWork gets you far in these situations. These SV companies think they can do whatever they want and sometimes need a harsh reality check that they must obey laws, especially as more and more people depend on them. I can't wait for GDPR and alike to start regulating these atrocities against privacy, security and fraud like behaviour. If anyone from UpWork is reading this, know that not I only I have personally closed my account, I will do everything in my power to keep hard working, honest engineers from your platform. And help them in any shape or form should they seek litigation against you.
Jesus_Jones 9y ago
This reminds me of Google and their atrocious customer account systems. These companies are just not impacted enough in a negative for them to change.
SnowingXIV 9y ago
I wish there was something better than Upwork. The platform is pretty buggy, I don't enjoy using it. The only reason I stick to it is the "pool" of freelancers is pretty big so you can likely find someone qualified and decent to work with. You get _tons_ of junk though. You can limit this by setting to only in US, only those that have worked x hours and have already made x. Setting strict requirements at least can remove the bait and switch or fresh spam accounts. Fun story time. I was looking for a developer and found a guy that seemed to have a nice profile, clear picture, etc. When I messaged him the responses felt very foreign and quick. Didn't really make sense so I reverse image searched the photo and found the photo belonged to a developer but not the guy I was talking to (different names). I emailed the real guy (he had a portfolio site and some nice programming articles) and asked if this was really him on Upwork. Nope. He said he's never had a profile on there and thanked me as he went to report it.
asperous 9y ago
List of alternatives to upwork here: https://theremotefreelancer.com https://theremotefreelancer.com https://github.com/engineerapart/TheRemoteFreelancer https://github.com/engineerapart/TheRemoteFreelancer Remote jobs here: https://github.com/lukasz-madon/awesome-remote-job#job-boards https://github.com/lukasz-madon/awesome-remote-job#job-board...
Dolores12 9y ago
Another option in case of upwork is to tell them you don't have webcam, then they will ask you to upload few government ids. Nonetheless i had bad experience with upwork as a client as well as a contractor.
thrownaway954 9y ago
i'm up voting specifically because it seems that companies that see stories like this on hacker news tend to comment on them. We had such a case about 2 weeks ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16261136 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16261136 I hope you get this resolved, but let this be a warning that these "gig" companies are nothing but a scam.
meaniehusker 9y ago
just visit their twitter help acct and you'll see how grate their customer service is https://twitter.com/UpworkHelp/status/963348399213834240 https://twitter.com/UpworkHelp/status/963348399213834240
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
upbeatlinux 9y ago
Upwork can be a stepping stone for talented developers who don't necessarily have the exposure, community or connections and may not have the accessibility to compete in other market places like Toptal. In my experience Upwork support has always been slow and cut-rate. I realize the irony as Upwork most likely employs contractors from its platform who aren't necessarily invested in building a product or community. It's unfortunate but this is a huge shortcoming both from a support and policy (ToS) standpoint. Support needs to be invested in the product. FWIW no freelancer (or gig economy worker for that manner) should be dependent on a single platform for income. There are so many job platforms to invest time and energy on - Upwork, Toptal, Gun.io, RemoteOk, etc. And the plethora of developer focused Q&A sites. Leverage those to augment your personal profile (site).
- tejay 9y ago
  Thanks for mentioning Gun.io. I'd also add a recommendation to spend at least a third of the time you spend doing billable work in building up your own pipeline — regardless of whether you're using a freelance service like us or not.

435 points by ribice 9y ago

rexreed 9y ago

I've had nothing but bad experiences with Upwork.

justherefortart 9y ago
I've never heard anything but bad experiences. Why do people even bother with it?
- AnkhMorporkian 9y ago
  Because it's a way to make money while you're between jobs while still using the skills you're good at. Not everyone is great at networking, nor are they necessarily in a place where they could pull good clients even if they were. It's a shit sandwich, but in tough times, that's all you can find to eat.
  - justherefortart 9y ago
    Fair enough, this is probably why I always have side gigs.
  - tcd 9y ago
    > Because it's a way to make money You're not making money if they're refunding the client. This article and people in this thread suggest it's a terrible way to make money and to AVOID at all costs. Or, you can use this company and I look forward to reading more of these articles.
    - AnkhMorporkian 9y ago
      Yes, it's worked out terribly for some people, but everyone I know who have done upwork jobs on the side have had next to zero problems. I don't use them anymore, as I've gotten out of the tech industry and became a professional baker instead, but I get the feeling that we on HN tend to hear a few horror stories, and ignore the thousands of success stories. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be changes made, but anecdotal evidence does not instantly justify a witchhunt and boycott.
      - itwy 9y ago
        As a professional baker, what do you do differently from traditional bakers?
        AnkhMorporkian 9y ago
        I get paid for it. Edit: For a slightly less sardonic answer, I prep an innumerable number of different items every day, and they all have to look near perfect. I decided that while programming was a passion of mine, I wanted to do it on my own terms. I wanted to create projects that I found interesting. Baking though? If I want to make something at work that I find interesting, I can experiment and do that, and my boss encourages me. So I still code, but I stopped doing it for money and started doing it to contribute to society. Baking I do for fun and money. It was a later in life career change, but I'm much happier for it.
        Cyberdog 9y ago
        So is there, like, a Baker News out there somewhere?
        AnkhMorporkian 9y ago
        There isn't enough dough for that.
- hobozilla 9y ago
  I'm a programmer, occasionally I use it to find people to help me with side projects. It seems to work pretty well, once you have the interview process down you can find some good people on there.
  - artmageddon 9y ago
    Got any tips on how to get going on a site like Upwork? I'm not sure I tried that one before, but I had a horrible experience on Freelancer.com and I've sorta shied away from those since then. I have enough on my plate with grad school and a full-time job at the moment, but if I ever find myself in dire straits I'd like to have options.
    - scardine 9y ago
      Charge bellow market rate in order to build reputation than brace for the day some dick will complain about some bullshit and they pull the rug under your feet.
    - hackermailman 9y ago
      Toptal as a freelancer for full or part-time I find better, even if it comes with all sorts of other issues like their opaque refund policy. There's other freelancer sites around too that are similar, usually posting on remote job boards like remoteok, weworkremotely, jobspresso ect. Surprisingly making a post on your local Craigslist you want contract, P/T work pans out too if some local company decides to contract you but I wouldn't work for individuals there since you'll likely not get paid. There's also here, the monthly freelancer for hire post.
gort 9y ago
Because of the site/system/admins, or the people who use it?
- rexreed 9y ago
  Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Bad site. Bad admins. Bad System. Bad providers. Bad Buyers. It's a sandwich of crap from top to bottom. I prefer to find, engage, pay, and manage my contractors direct. Do I get burned from time to time and have a hard time finding good contractors? yes. But I'd rather do that than have my time, money, and reputation wasted by something I have no control over.
campuscodi 9y ago
This is what happens when you outsource customer support to someone outside your company's culture.

nraynaud 9y ago

I think google and PayPal have shown every companies in the valley that you can be unreliable and stonewall your users without hindering economic success.

adventured 9y ago
That's not actually the context. They're being unreliable and stonewalling an extraordinarily tiny percentage of their massive userbases. That's precisely why it doesn't matter to them in a business sense.
wand3r 9y ago
While I agree that those companies and many others have become quite successful taking this tact, it was really only successful because of those businesses are nearly monopolies. Obviously this is similar to ISPs. Upwork competes with tons of other boards directly as well as LinkedIn, Indeed/Job Boards, Craigslist, general networking and other preferences (not working an additional part time job). Also, similar to recruiting these places need to attract top talent consistently not just warm-bodies. Highly skilled workers can afford to exercise other options much better.
- shimon 9y ago
  You're right, but upwork is the dominant marketplace for low-cost contract labor. It is the merger of what was previously a duopoly in the space (elance and odesk) and the network effects are strong. So maybe it's not quite as monopolistic as the others you mentioned but it has clearly (and rationally) chosen to compromise fairness to its users to a degree that it likely could not in a more competitive market.
Xephyrous 9y ago
PayPal froze my account a few years ago for "suspicious activity". I still don't know what that activity was. Support gave me the same sort of runaround non-answers as described in this article. I finally got to talk to someone on the phone and had an exchange along these lines: me: "Is there any way I can continue to use paypal?" paypal: "You can open up a new bank account and then use that to register a different paypal account" me: "..."

rakibtg 9y ago

What are some good alternatives from your experience?

lettergram 9y ago

This is personally why I’m of the opinion, why we should always try to avoid as much centralization as we can. Host your own blog, run your own systems, use distributed software. I even keep two payment systems available, just in case. I get gigs often enough (as often as I want) mostly just through people reading my blog[1] (where I can advertise when available) [1] https://austingwalters.com https://austingwalters.com

slenk 9y ago
But when you're just starting out, how can you get your name out there? Sure, you can write blog posts and craft some good SEO, but who is going to trust someone without reviews from a centralized source?
- Jeremy1026 9y ago
  Centralized sources have the same problem though. Almost every job on upwork is posted with a requirement of a job score of 90+. You can only get a job score by completing something on their platform and getting a positive review. OP said he did a project for $10, which for most freelancers is maybe 5 minutes of work at their standard rate. If you're going to work for free, might as well do it in your own circle and build out from there.
s73v3r_ 9y ago
Here's the thing with hosting your own blog: I write articles only once in a great while. I'd be fine with hosting my own blog, but it would look rather empty. Using something like Medium, it doesn't make my writing look so sparse.

jrs95 9y ago

Wow. This has to be some of the worst customer support I’ve ever seen. The only thing I experienced that was worse was American Express cancelling my account, telling the credit bureaus I was dead, not allowing me to pay them, and hanging up on me when I called them. Eventually I managed to find out that they sold the account and got ahold of who had it now, but they wouldn’t accept my payment because I wasn’t really dead, and had to transfer my account back to American Express. After finally resolving this and paying them in full, they report to the bureaus that I was late several months on my payments, and any attempt to appeal this has just been ignored. So I just have to wait for it to fall off my report. Until then, I’m paying over 12% interest on a fucking auto loan.

gargravarr 9y ago
Bureaucracy makes absolutely no provision for the correction of mistakes. I dread ever having to talk to large companies. They're much too eager to blame the customer for any problem regardless of reason, just so long as they're no longer their problem.
DenisM 9y ago
Perhaps a small-claims lawsuit could recompense your suffering? There might be some law that absolves them from liability, but they would have to show up to argue the point, and they can’t send in the lawyers.
- jrs95 9y ago
  I have considered this, but it seemed not worth the risk given the expense of a lawyer. I’m not an expert on this at all though, so I could be wrong. I had mostly assumed the odds of winning something like that were low because what they did seems to be legitimate even though it sucks.
  - jungletek 9y ago
    https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/small-claims-court-faq.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/small-claims-court-f...

jermaustin1 9y ago

As a person who "buys time" on upwork quite frequently, I regularly get sent links to 3rd party sites housing example work and portfolios. And almost all of my developers will send me private repos on github. My writers will submit work on Google Docs so we can collaborate. Rarely do I get any worker who doesn't "violate" the TOS, because the TOS is a POS that hinders mine and the freelancer's business.

gnode 9y ago
The great thing about a TOS which everyone violates, is that it can be arbitrarily enforced, for any unspoken actual reason.
- wowtip 9y ago
  It would be nice if there was an "easy" way of proving this, and regulations making void TOS the company does not enforce in a majority of cases.
- jotm 9y ago
  Learning the best tricks from government law making.
- albertgoeswoof 9y ago
  Sort of, if you have the $$$ and the damages are worth chasing in reality you would take them to court. Demonstrating that everyone else is routinely breaking the TOS, and that the company knew about it, would be a very strong piece of evidence in your case
  - Analemma_ 9y ago
    It really wouldn't, at least with the laws as they exist now. Upwork just says "private company, at-will service, voluntary association", and they win.
  - gnode 9y ago
    Trouble is, almost nobody cares to spare that much money, least of all the typical gig economy servant.

nuggien 9y ago

Almost 100% positive upwork somehow magically unsuspends his account after seeing this thread. When will these companies ever learn that it’s not okay to misbehave and quietly “fix” things when publicity gets bad?

jclulow 9y ago
Generally only when it becomes economically or legally impossible to continue doing so.
- codegladiator 9y ago
  So never ?
ribice 9y ago
You're correct, they did that an hour ago.
- dvfjsdhgfv 9y ago
  That's absolutely unbelievable! It looks like the times of civilized conversations are over, and public shaming is the only strategy that works for companies like these... Facebook, Google, you name it - they don't care about you, but once your submission on HN gathers enough traction, your problem magically disappears. That's ridiculous.

saluki 9y ago

Sorry to hear about your experience with upwork. Sounds like you might have still had PHP in your profile from years ago and when you said you don't do PHP development in the video chat that was enough to trigger a suspension. Honestly you're probably better off you ended your upwork journey after only a couple gigs. I did a few projects on elance years ago but it was always a hassle and tough to find good projects/clients. It sounds like you are providing good value/quality work to clients. Look to your network to find Go projects instead. Become more active in the community. Keep blogging. Connect with other Go developers, ask around if anyone knows anyone needing a Go developer. Lots of times developers don't have time to handle all the projects/clients they run in to and will hand them off to someone else they respect in the community. You're going to find better projects/clients and higher paying side work that way than using upwork. And not have to deal with their hassle, fees and issues like this. This might be a little bit of a gray area since it violates their ToS but since your account is suspended anyway if you have the emails of the two clients you worked with you could contact them and contract with them on new projects directly. (Don't mention here that you are doing this in case your usernames are the same on HN/upwork) Especially the last one where you completed the gig, he paid you a higher amount than agreed on and then upwork refunded your fee for work completed. He should be open to moving forward contracting directly. Good luck finding side work.

mnw21cam 9y ago
Or you could take upwork to small claims court.
kbart 9y ago
Oh, common on, every time freelancing topics comes up on HN there are at least few comments: "just do networking, it's so easy, and gigs just starts falling from the sky". No, this advice doesn't work well outside of tech hubs or good existing network (from university etc.) In some places developers are few and far between, especially if you are into more specialized, niche areas. Of course, you can try participate in online communities, but it's hard (i.e. good luck getting your first patch into Linux kernel mainline) and time consuming, especially if English is not your first language. Typical Upwork and similar services user is someone from rural Bangladesh, not well-connected MIT graduate working in sexy startup in Silicon Valley.

cryoshon 9y ago

their entire business model is making sure that their users never get a fair deal by communicating directly with the people they find via upwork. is it really so surprising that they are fucking abysmal at customer service? my experiences with them are 100% bad, but nowhere near as bad as what the OP article discusses.

dvfjsdhgfv 9y ago
I never used Upwork and and wondering - how on Earth can they make sure that I deliver the code to the client, and that there is no information in the code that could be used to identify me. Apart from that, the identity of the person is their unique brand, it guarantees integrity (or a lack of it), it allows to check one's portfolio and verify the skills of the developer - for example by looking at their public contributions. When you take all this away, what are you left with?
- kuschku 9y ago
  > When you take all this away, what are you left with? A "mechanical Turk", as amazon would call it, a "Code Monkey" as Jonathan Coulton sang in his song. A completely exchangeable person, an employee as a service. How the code is written, who does it, is entirely irrelevant. Entirely replaceable, with no recourse for the "contractor". The main component of the gig economy is exactly this, completely disenfranchising the worker by commoditizing work. You try to negotiate higher pay, you simply get replaced.
  - crankylinuxuser 9y ago
    > The main component of the gig economy is exactly this, completely disenfranchising the worker. It's even more insidious than that. Previously, it's workers came together to create unions, to prevent abuses by the company owners. Go back far enough, and companies hired hit squads in part of the US government to kill union leaders and bust strikes. Then, unions were demonized. They "enabled lazy and bad workers, and punishing good workers" - I thing I got the root of the arguments used. Then comes the gig economy. We have a company, who "hires" employees, but then pits each employee against each other. Doing so then puts each employee in the position of "I'm against employee #2, and #3, and #4". This poisons the pot for any chances of coming together, and fixing wrongs. And it also easily allows what we would have called "scabs" to immediately enter if there is a union forming.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

CPLX 9y ago

This is one of my least favorite innovations of Silicon Valley, the opaque, confusing, no stated reasons practice of banning users. I totally understand why things developed the way they did. The internet is huge and full of bad actors, and a nascent service is in real existential danger of being overwhelmed and swamped by fraud. If you tell bad actors why you're banning them and spend valuable time communicating with them it can put you out of business early on. But like in so many other arenas, the Valley mentality hasn't adopted to the fact that they are no longer underdog rebels besieged by barbarians on one side and big scary rich corporations on the other site. The reality is now that these companies are the ruling class, and the users are the general population. And people rely on these services and base their lives on them. Arbitrary and capriciously depriving people of access to these platforms without any kind of due process rights isn't OK any more. There's a reason we have consumer protection laws, why someone decided we needed things like the Montreal Convention and the FDCPA and CPSC and so on. It's axiomatic that we can't trust monopolistic corporations to do right by the little guy. This Silicon Valley mentality is increasingly going to lead to pitchforks, torches, and regulation in the near future, it's an inevitability. Rightly so.

tankenmate 9y ago
I don't think it is right to regard UpWork as a "nascent service". They have had plenty of time to make better policies if they felt it was necessary, but it's hard to assume other than it is not "worth it" to them. UpWork's antecedents Elance and oDesk have been around for 18 years and 15 years respectively. From outside observations it is not hard to come to the conclusion that they care little beyond "working the numbers", as long as their sales pipe is full they probably won't change. As you suggest bringing this to your local trade body and making a formal complaint is probably the way to go. It will take a long time and a lot of complaints to get there though. In the mean time avoid them, both the buy and sell side.
- adventured 9y ago
  I think it's very clear the parent was not referring to Upwork as a nascent service. They were speaking generally about the process that leads to a culture of ingrained behavior over time, which starts from that nascent service context. You can derive that is very likely the case based on the intelligence and composure of the rest of their post. You can also derive it directly from the full paragraph text, which is not referring specifically to Upwork, rather it is referring to Silicon Valley broadly, and why "things" developed the way they did with how SV firms have tended to treat customers/users.

ancarda 9y ago

>How is it possible to propagate a session id in PHP What the hell does that even mean? I write PHP for a living and this makes no sense to me. Do they mean retrieve the ID via session_id() and pass it onto a page, like in a GET parameter?

caiob 9y ago
I believe she meant to start the session on every page. E.g.: `session_start()` But you're right. The question is confusing even for experienced PHP devs.
Hydraulix989 9y ago
I think using cookies?
- Someone1234 9y ago
  There's no real answer since the term "propagate" can mean one of several things. For example are we propagating the session ID from the server to client or client to server? And in both cases there are several answers which apply. PHP Dev or not, that question is too vague to be answerable. You'd have to ask additional questions just to understand the question itself.
  - Hydraulix989 9y ago
    As you would expect, Upwork doesn't have the resources for people that really know PHP to be doing these verifications. While we all agree that the question was poorly-worded, anyone with decent communication skills (a much-needed skill for people doing the kinds of client-facing software engineering jobs that are on Upwork) can easily recognize this and work with the non-technical person conducting the interview to arrive at the "right" answer even though it "DOES NOT COMPUTE" to the overly-pedantic "language lawyer" in some. I remember someone angrily posting on HN about failing an HR phone screening because they tried arguing with the interviewer that Linux was not Unix, but was Unix-like (a sign that the interviewee clearly knew the one-word _expected_ answer that was on the interviewer's answer key). Just answer the very simple question and move on, instead of trying to show off or whatever. Part of functioning in the workplace means communicating effectively and professionally (by not being condescending, for example) with other people that may have different skill sets. The best engineers are very cognizant of this.

pi-rat 9y ago

Funny they're so quick on the block button now! Someone once created an account on upwork in my name (based on my github probably), took me ages to get that one shut down..

orasis 9y ago

Overall I get value out of Upwork as a buyer, but a full 60% of the applicants I get are scam bait-and-switch accounts. I’ve figured out how to navigate it but it doesn’t surprise me that they’d be strict on their TOS.

sparrish 9y ago
This has been my experience as a client as well. Fell prey to a couple of "say we're doing the work but we ain't" devs that thankfully UpWork refunded so I'm glad to hear they're cracking down on scam accounts. Sad to hear that legit accounts are getting caught up in the process though.

ransom1538 9y ago

In my experience there are two types of jobs on the system. Quick simple projects and almost-full-time-job type work. With simple projects it just isn't worth the contractors time - the amount of time wasted in non billable hours: messages, specs, understanding, setup - just doesn't make anything efficient. Sure, bill for the client meetings - but watch your ratings crash. With the almost-full-time-job type work - it's smarter to just yank the person out of upwork and not pay the crazy upwork fees then develop a real relationship. Unfortunately, how contractors get really screwed is when they run into a real asshole client. Once this happens they are reported to upwork (for not doing free work usually). Good contractors that worked for us were routinely banned. [I only have been on the client side.]

shimon 9y ago
Is it easy to move outside of upwork for the financial side, and still have some recourse on both sides? If I'm a US client working with a contractor in Russia, I'd be concerned about taxes, currency conversion, etc. I don't really understand all of these challenges, but I assume upwork has them handled. Is there something else I could use that would take a smaller cut, once trust around the actual work has been established?
- notdang 9y ago
  You can use what upwork uses: payoneer.com The contractor in Russia that is registered on payoneer can issue an invoice to you, with an US bank account number.
- ransom1538 9y ago
  Ironically, working with someone overseas makes taxes simple. There are no with-holdings. You just wire money. Couldn't be more simple. If the person is a US citizen, it's a circus. "As a general rule, wages earned by nonresident aliens for services performed outside of the United States for any employer are foreign source income and therefore are not subject to reporting and withholding of U.S. federal income tax." https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/persons-employed-abroad-by-a-us-person https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/pers...

robodale 9y ago

I've used and spent plenty on Upwork, and when they were called oDesk. Is there an alternative out there that (1) I can post a price for a job, (2) interview/critique candidates,(3) easily go back and forth as the job is in progress, (4) approve, "complete", possibly rate, and pay the person doing the work....all without Upwork's bullshit?

scardine 9y ago
Looks like a good side project. I want to build a platform that charges only for arbitration and escrow. I want to build a video interview system where you can select the questions you are interested and it will compile a 2X compact video with the answers for speeding up screening. Than the system uses AI to find and recommend candidates like the ones you rank better. I want to fix remote work and freelancing.

User_424 9y ago

Upwork is horrible. They take on average 25% of your pay, on top of taxes. Bad customer support and its flooded with low-cost labor.

mrhappyunhappy 9y ago
Ya, I end up declining 99% of all offers on up work. I'd say very few are actually good projects with good people behind them. Most are assholes who treat freelancers like garbage.
- mfoy_ 9y ago
  Honestly it literally sounds like that is the business model. "Let's build a platform that exploits desperate developers..."

crankylinuxuser 9y ago

And, the user is playing "HN Customer Roulette" by hoping they will get enough traction here to garner a fair response. When you're a serf on another's platform, you're subject to their rules. What rules are they? "Does their automated system and people like you?" Is it unfair? Yes. Is it bad all around? Yes. Is there anything you can do about it? Yes - posting to social media and naming and shaming. That's it.

nebulous1 9y ago

It's hard to see how they can justify reversing the payments on jobs he's already done. That said I do have a couple of issues with his decisions here: > Before starting the verification process, I completed the second gig That seems ... optimistic! > She talked a bit more, but I could barely understand her anything due to connection issues. > ... > “That went far easier and quicker than I expected. Lovely.” Seriously? Other than that his experience does seem extremely frustrating.

bredren 9y ago

Upwork is bad. Their fraud prevention has been a problem for a long time. They have had major basic system stability problems, and even data privacy issues. It is like the lumbering giant of craigslist except far less benevolent.

odonnellryan 9y ago
I had a decently good account on Upwork. I had a few jobs on there that developed into great long-term contracts. One time, me and a client logged into Upwork to close a contract out on the same network. We both got banned :)

z3t4 9y ago

I believe software is a market for lemons (1). You don't know what quality you will get so on places like Upwork people are not prepared to pay much. Even though there's a shortage of developers, it's almost impossible to find freelance work, and there's plenty of people exploiting those who work basically for free just to get a good rep. And at the same time there's people paying outrageous prices eg $100,000 for a simple web site.

redleggedfrog 9y ago

Actually, the only thing surprising about the article is how little this poor fellow is getting paid for the work.

Flozzin 9y ago
No crap. $15? I have to imagine he spent at least a couple hours on it. Even $50 seems like it's not worth the time. I really doubt he's spending less than 2 hours on any of this. Not to mention just finding and applying...
- ribice 9y ago
  You're correct. I did it more for the reviews, so that I can charge appropriate rates later on. I spent probably 2-3 hours for that $15 (and 3 hours more for additional $30) and then about 2 hours for that $100 (expected $50). These are all excluding messaging, just actual work.
ribice 9y ago
It was more for the reviews than the money. I assume after having few positive reviews, it's easier to get higher paying jobs. It's a standard guide when joining new freelance sites.
kdmytro 9y ago
I'm sure the author took those low-budget projects to get at least some reviews. The rate gets better as you fill your profile and get good reviews, otherwise the customer will have to choose between 10 identical profiles (except that the names are different).

martingordon 9y ago

I had my Venmo account temporarily terminated a few weeks ago. I didn't do anything other than be the recipient of a $139.99 payment from a stranger "for laundry". My account was unfrozen, but I think it was out of sheer luck more than anything. A less savvy person would have likely taken the notification at face value and left it at that. I searched around for what to do in this situation and came across many reports of this type of scam, where an unknown sender "accidentally" sends payment, request a payment from me for the money back, and simultaneously cancels the transaction. I did nothing and hoped the issue would resolve itself. Two days later, I get an email saying my Venmo account has been frozen "due to recent activity that appears to be a violation of our User Agreement." After reaching out to Venmo via chat, I had a similar interaction as the article. They told me my account was frozen, that my case was being handled by an Account Specialist, and that would be in touch via email. The next day I got an email from the Account Specialist saying my actions and activity were in violation of the ToS and that my account was permanently deactivated. I reached out to support again and played dumb, saying I received payment from a stranger but can't send the money back because my balance didn't go up. Support again said they couldn't do anything, that my account was frozen by an Account Specialist, and that they would be in touch via email. The Account Specialist sent me an email saying the payment was refunded and that I should reach out to the sender directly, to which I responded that I didn't know who the sender was and I assumed the payments were made in error and asking them to confirm that I had to take no further action. They responded with a form email saying my account had been unfrozen. "However, please keep in mind that the state of your account can be revised if your transaction history raises flags on our system in the future."

kuschku 9y ago
And this is why it’s so scary that our societies are moving towards using such private companies for basically core infrastructure of society. If the government fucks up, I have an easy way of appealing, everything is clearly defined. If venmo or PayPal fucks up, I have to sue over country lines, argue an international case, and still have no recourse.
- vkou 9y ago

neelkadia 9y ago

Upwork banned me too. some offensive words

gspetr 9y ago

Upwork is pretty much the worst type of business, very shortsighted, focused only on extracting immediate value at seemingly any cost. Last year's 1175 point post "Why you should never use Upwork"[0] is still as relevant as ever and I don't expect it to change. You should avoid Upwork like the plague. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12773282 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12773282

debacle 9y ago
So what are the alternatives for people who want to find contracting work without networking?
- Slansitartop 9y ago
  > So what are the alternatives for people who want to find contracting work without networking? Not having your own network opens you up to exploitation and poor treatment, because you need the network owner more than she needs you. So, if you want that, you're left looking for an usually ethical company, which will be hard with a high chance of failure. I think people need to be founding more online cooperatives and mutuals.
- akvadrako 9y ago
  toptal.com seems like one of the better ones, but the best option is probably to join a collective.
  - balfirevic 9y ago
    What is "a collective" in this context?
    - akvadrako 9y ago
      A worker-owned consulting firm, basically. Also called a co-op. You get the benefit of shared clients and administration support, without working for "somebody else". I don't know of any large ones, but I have seen quite a few around.

jitendrac 9y ago

I had freelanced using Odesk before it became Upwork, And I do hold some balance in the account even now. I am inactive(not bidding anymore) on it since 2014. Six months ago from nowhere I got a sudden email about my account suspension. I appealed and try to prove my identity with Government Issued ID card, Academic details even My name in the list of the post-graduates(with no result). They keep on denying to re-activate my account and suggest me to withdraw my money, that I have not yet. I can still browse Upwork, It is becoming more toxic with agressive bidding and way lower quality jobs now a days.

deleted 9y ago

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dbuder 9y ago

They probably hired someone who used to work for Uber.

vbezhenar 9y ago

I'll try to find some remote work soon and I'm interested in upwork alternatives. I've heard a lot of bad things about them and it's risky to depend on that service. But I didn't hear about any big competitors. I'm talking specifically about some small pieces of work, not just remote work, without automatic screenshots and all that nonsense.

smnscu 9y ago
Pilot have contacted me last month and I really like their policy. They only do long-term full-time contracts with reliable companies, and have a flat fee of 30% - you can set whatever rate you like. I am happily employed but I feel it's a far cry from services like Toptal who have opaque, allegedly much larger commissions. https://pilot.co/ https://pilot.co/ Some more alternatives: https://github.com/andreis/interview/issues/23 https://github.com/andreis/interview/issues/23 https://github.com/wfhio/awesome-job-boards https://github.com/wfhio/awesome-job-boards

dizzystar 9y ago

I had an upwork and closed it down for exactly what this is about, except that the client blatantly lied about the work I handed over. It was a bad contract, but it was completed despite the various issues involved. I submitted the code and he made a claim that my code did something that is absolutely impossible to do: SQL is not going to affect the browser UI, especially not default settings within the browser. I asked for a screenshot of the "issue" and that never came in. The client also made changes to my code and kept demanding I fix it. I closed down the contract and opened a case, thinking it would be obvious that I did the work as asked and they were very difficult to work with. It was interesting to read the responses. They kept saying they needed more and more features before they agreed the work was done. I said that the contract, as specified in both the post and ensuing messages was done. I never heard these new requests. Throughout the correspondence with upwork, the client kept changing their story, outright contradicting themselves over and over. Upwork, of course, sided with the client over the new feature request they demanded. Apparently, upwork thinks that a contract is infinite work. I pointed out each lie, asked for a screenshot of the impossible bug, and explained the new features (which changed multiple times during the case) would take too long to complete. I lost the case and ended up doing the job for half price. Upwork is optimized to client first, which is just wrong to the workers. I had to pay 20% of my earnings at $50/hr and up, so it's not like I had zero value to the company. I closed down my account over that.

swat535 9y ago

It is foolish to fully rely on UpWork on any other similar websites without strong legal representation in place. Threatening legal action against UpWork gets you far in these situations. These SV companies think they can do whatever they want and sometimes need a harsh reality check that they must obey laws, especially as more and more people depend on them. I can't wait for GDPR and alike to start regulating these atrocities against privacy, security and fraud like behaviour. If anyone from UpWork is reading this, know that not I only I have personally closed my account, I will do everything in my power to keep hard working, honest engineers from your platform. And help them in any shape or form should they seek litigation against you.

Jesus_Jones 9y ago

This reminds me of Google and their atrocious customer account systems. These companies are just not impacted enough in a negative for them to change.

SnowingXIV 9y ago

I wish there was something better than Upwork. The platform is pretty buggy, I don't enjoy using it. The only reason I stick to it is the "pool" of freelancers is pretty big so you can likely find someone qualified and decent to work with. You get _tons_ of junk though. You can limit this by setting to only in US, only those that have worked x hours and have already made x. Setting strict requirements at least can remove the bait and switch or fresh spam accounts. Fun story time. I was looking for a developer and found a guy that seemed to have a nice profile, clear picture, etc. When I messaged him the responses felt very foreign and quick. Didn't really make sense so I reverse image searched the photo and found the photo belonged to a developer but not the guy I was talking to (different names). I emailed the real guy (he had a portfolio site and some nice programming articles) and asked if this was really him on Upwork. Nope. He said he's never had a profile on there and thanked me as he went to report it.

asperous 9y ago

List of alternatives to upwork here: https://theremotefreelancer.com https://theremotefreelancer.com https://github.com/engineerapart/TheRemoteFreelancer https://github.com/engineerapart/TheRemoteFreelancer Remote jobs here: https://github.com/lukasz-madon/awesome-remote-job#job-boards https://github.com/lukasz-madon/awesome-remote-job#job-board...

Dolores12 9y ago

Another option in case of upwork is to tell them you don't have webcam, then they will ask you to upload few government ids. Nonetheless i had bad experience with upwork as a client as well as a contractor.

thrownaway954 9y ago

i'm up voting specifically because it seems that companies that see stories like this on hacker news tend to comment on them. We had such a case about 2 weeks ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16261136 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16261136 I hope you get this resolved, but let this be a warning that these "gig" companies are nothing but a scam.

meaniehusker 9y ago

just visit their twitter help acct and you'll see how grate their customer service is https://twitter.com/UpworkHelp/status/963348399213834240 https://twitter.com/UpworkHelp/status/963348399213834240

deleted 9y ago

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upbeatlinux 9y ago

Upwork can be a stepping stone for talented developers who don't necessarily have the exposure, community or connections and may not have the accessibility to compete in other market places like Toptal. In my experience Upwork support has always been slow and cut-rate. I realize the irony as Upwork most likely employs contractors from its platform who aren't necessarily invested in building a product or community. It's unfortunate but this is a huge shortcoming both from a support and policy (ToS) standpoint. Support needs to be invested in the product. FWIW no freelancer (or gig economy worker for that manner) should be dependent on a single platform for income. There are so many job platforms to invest time and energy on - Upwork, Toptal, Gun.io, RemoteOk, etc. And the plethora of developer focused Q&A sites. Leverage those to augment your personal profile (site).

tejay 9y ago
Thanks for mentioning Gun.io. I'd also add a recommendation to spend at least a third of the time you spend doing billable work in building up your own pipeline — regardless of whether you're using a freelance service like us or not.