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> There is also a subgenre of books aimed specifically at new fathers, but since they are an almost uninterrupted wasteland of jokes about breasts and beer, thi

> There is also a subgenre of books aimed specifically at new fathers, but since they are an almost uninterrupted wasteland of jokes about breasts and beer, this article will give them the attention they deserve, which is none. Yeah... no. As a new father of a now five-month old boy, I very highly recommend The Expectant Father and The New Father by Armin A. Brott. They are a far cry from a "wasteland of jokes about breasts and beer". It's unfortunate that this (so far) otherwise interesting article is doing what so many of the books it is criticizing do... giving little attention to the fatherhood side of parenting.

ourmandave 9y ago
Weighing on every new dad I ever met (at least in the background) is, "How the hell am I gonna pay for all this?"
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- taeric 9y ago
  That isn't limited to dads. Nor is it not recognized by single people. There is an XKCD that jokes about being able to have a treasure chest where some cars have families posted.
- cdubzzz 9y ago
  Brott writes about this a bit in his books - mostly about the societal expectation of father as "bread winner" who should be concerned about the fiscal side of child-rearing because that is his (some might say sole) responsibility vs. mother as care-giver and nurturer. You can count me as at least one new dad you've, well, not necessarily met, whose primary concern is more along the lines of, "How the hell am I gonna be involved with my son's life?" (:
  - navbaker 9y ago
    >>"How the hell am I gonna be involved with my son's life?" I’m actually in the process of changing careers due to the realization that remaining on my current track would put me at work before they get out of bed and home from work after they’re in bed for the next 15-ish years. I refuse to miss my kids growing up during this one shot at life I have.
    - cdubzzz 9y ago
      I hear ya. I am also in the process of a career shift brought about by our change in priorities after our son was born. The unfortunate thing is that I am losing some of my schedule flexibility (at least in the near term), but the reason for our (coast to coast) move is to be closer to immediate family so that they can also be a more involved part of our son's life. It's really amazing to me how this child has changed us and our lives. Not to say that my wife and I expected the kid to pop out and life to return to business as usual, just that I didn't truly comprehend how profoundly this experience would change me. It's intense.
      - le-mark 9y ago
        to be closer to immediate family so that they can also be a more involved part of our son's life. This is so huge, not only so your kids know their extended family, but also to have some basic help. We've found that even my sister who lives 45 minutes away is just a bit too far to see them as frequently as we'd like, with her busy family and all. My advice is to move closer than you think you ought to!
      - manmal 9y ago
        Now wait what a second kid can do to your schedule flexibility :) It‘s not twice the change, but times 4, at least in the first two years.
    - jeffwass 9y ago
      One suggestion - are you able to shift your hours to see your kids either before or after? I’ve been able to arrange things and arrive at work a bit later, so I see my kids each morning and take them to school. Then I stay a bit later at work. It also means I don’t see them most weeknights, but I see them every morning (barring the rare unmovable meeting). Some of my colleagues do opposite. But there are also parents that just don’t see their kids at all until the weekend.
- SirFatty 9y ago
  Upvoted... it's completely true. Additionally, I cannot imagine why you need to read a book about something like this. Questions? Talk to your parents or pediatrician.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    Your parents likely aren't experts and your you want to make efficient use of your time consulting withstand pediatrician on details, so getting good, expert-written books to cover as much of the general space as possible is a perfectly reasonable strategy. The problem, of course, is finding those books.
    - SirFatty 9y ago
      You illustrate my point exactly, it's not that complicated. I have two young men that my wife and I raised without (GASP) the need of a book. Crazy, I know.. go ahead and mod this comment down also.
      - allannienhuis 9y ago
        Just because you were able to do so doesn't mean that everyone else will be able to do so. Many people don't have good parenting role models in their lives. If the ability to parent well were somehow built-in to us, there would be a lot fewer single-parent homes out there. For some (many) people the wisdom found in well written and researched books will be invaluable. I'm not sure why you seem to come across so strongly against the idea.
      - Angostura 9y ago
        Did you lay the baby on its front or back when you put it to bed?
  - jtbayly 9y ago
    You must not be aware of how many millions of men and women have parents that are at best divorced, at worst completely absent or even unknown. And no, pediatricians can't fill that gap.
- jakobegger 9y ago
  The amount of money that you can spend on a child is virtually unlimited. But almost all of it absolutely optional. Sure, you’ll need diapers and a car seat, but beyond that there’s not a lot that’s absolutely necessary. There’s so much stuff that people think they need to buy, ranging from special vitamins during pregnancy to hypoallergenic formula and baby swimming lessons and educational toys for every age bracket... And then you realise that people who make half the money you do get along just fine and their kids are doing fine and somehow they only need half as much money. Sure, we do spend a lot of money on semi-useful kids stuff (like those skiing lessons that our older son didn’t want to continue after the second day...), but it’s all optional, and if we didn’t have kids I’d probably have a nicer car, but who cares.
  - cdubzzz 9y ago
    This was a very important lesson my wife and I received from one of her (married with four children) sisters. Before we decided to have a child, the money aspect was indeed stressing us both out - you can find all kinds of wild estimations on the Internet and in books for the "cost of a child" - and understanding this was eye opening.
  - nradov 9y ago
    The folic acid supplements should be considered absolutely necessary. Fortunately they're very cheap. https://www.marchofdimes.org/pregnancy/folic-acid.aspx https://www.marchofdimes.org/pregnancy/folic-acid.aspx
    - manmal 9y ago
      You mean, during pregnancy? Those are really dirt cheap. We opted for a more expensive multivitamin that also had a bit of fish oil in it, but that’s optional. It cost €20 per month.
  - trhway 9y ago
    My understanding that vitamin deficiency can be bad, like for example follic acid - spina bifida, vit D - autism. Most people don't have the deficiency of course, yet how to prevent it when they do, and how to detect it?
- Angostura 9y ago
  Have a wife who earns more than you? Then you have the option of the fun of being a stay at home dad. Job done.
  - unit91 9y ago
    > stay at home dad Most (not all) of the time I've observed this, "stay at home dad" is a euphemism for "lazy bum".
- desireco42 9y ago
  I think this is excellent idea for a book :)
secabeen 9y ago
Yeah, I had the same reaction. The Armin Brott books are quite reasonable. Respectful to new moms, broad enough to cover a range of parental experiences. I would strongly recommend them to any new father, and I make sure my copies circulate to any expectant dad I know.
- kleiba 9y ago
  I'm a relatively new father too, and the author already lost me much earlier than that part. "Lost me", not as in "I couldn't follow anymore", but as in "this hasn't been my experience at all". My partner bought / were given a couple of books, maybe three or four. Not all of them were read. The ones we did read, we took with a grain of salt, and sometimes humor. More importantly: almost nothing written in any of these books was relevant to our parenting so far, other than very basic, mostly biological information about the expected development stages. Beyond that, nothing really was required in our case, and the books all made pretty clear that all babies are different and that your baby's development will likely differ in one way or the other from what they tell us. So, I don't really get what triggered the author to write this. Or, put differently, it's interesting to read this perspective, but frankly, it differs very much from my own experience.
  - grkvlt 9y ago
    You seem to be agreeing pretty much 100% with the views presented by the author in the article. Can you explain more about what you feel is different about your experience?
skyisblue 9y ago
Highly recommend these books too and also about to read Fathering Your Toddler by the same author.
tmnvix 9y ago
This type of comment is all too common across The Guardian to the point that it is almost editorial policy. It's a real shame as The Guardian is one of the better major papers out there in my opinion. I just wish they could face the fact that they have a real problem with this type of snide anti-male remark.
- colanderman 9y ago
  To be fair I'm not sure whether the quoted sentence is saying fathers, or the books targeted at them, should be given no attention. I read it as referring to the books; otherwise it's a really weird circumlocution.
  - tmnvix 9y ago
    I read it to mean the books, but I still see this as a problem. It's the dismissive attitude towards something that concerns men. If you read enough of The Guardian you can't help but think that this dismissiveness is because it concerns men. If they were genuinely interested, they would have found plenty of titles. I really don't want to come across as a "what about us men?" type, but I resent that The Guardian - a paper I once loved - seems to be making a concerted effort to turn me into exactly that sort. It's so incredibly at odds with their feminist/gender equalitarian agenda that I can only assume that they do this to provoke outrage and generate clicks. You only have to read the comments to see that they do a good job of provoking many of their readers. Anyhow, this is getting a long way off topic.

ourmandave 9y ago

Weighing on every new dad I ever met (at least in the background) is, "How the hell am I gonna pay for all this?"

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
taeric 9y ago
That isn't limited to dads. Nor is it not recognized by single people. There is an XKCD that jokes about being able to have a treasure chest where some cars have families posted.
cdubzzz 9y ago
Brott writes about this a bit in his books - mostly about the societal expectation of father as "bread winner" who should be concerned about the fiscal side of child-rearing because that is his (some might say sole) responsibility vs. mother as care-giver and nurturer. You can count me as at least one new dad you've, well, not necessarily met, whose primary concern is more along the lines of, "How the hell am I gonna be involved with my son's life?" (:
- navbaker 9y ago
  >>"How the hell am I gonna be involved with my son's life?" I’m actually in the process of changing careers due to the realization that remaining on my current track would put me at work before they get out of bed and home from work after they’re in bed for the next 15-ish years. I refuse to miss my kids growing up during this one shot at life I have.
  - cdubzzz 9y ago
    I hear ya. I am also in the process of a career shift brought about by our change in priorities after our son was born. The unfortunate thing is that I am losing some of my schedule flexibility (at least in the near term), but the reason for our (coast to coast) move is to be closer to immediate family so that they can also be a more involved part of our son's life. It's really amazing to me how this child has changed us and our lives. Not to say that my wife and I expected the kid to pop out and life to return to business as usual, just that I didn't truly comprehend how profoundly this experience would change me. It's intense.
    - le-mark 9y ago
      to be closer to immediate family so that they can also be a more involved part of our son's life. This is so huge, not only so your kids know their extended family, but also to have some basic help. We've found that even my sister who lives 45 minutes away is just a bit too far to see them as frequently as we'd like, with her busy family and all. My advice is to move closer than you think you ought to!
    - manmal 9y ago
      Now wait what a second kid can do to your schedule flexibility :) It‘s not twice the change, but times 4, at least in the first two years.
  - jeffwass 9y ago
    One suggestion - are you able to shift your hours to see your kids either before or after? I’ve been able to arrange things and arrive at work a bit later, so I see my kids each morning and take them to school. Then I stay a bit later at work. It also means I don’t see them most weeknights, but I see them every morning (barring the rare unmovable meeting). Some of my colleagues do opposite. But there are also parents that just don’t see their kids at all until the weekend.
SirFatty 9y ago
Upvoted... it's completely true. Additionally, I cannot imagine why you need to read a book about something like this. Questions? Talk to your parents or pediatrician.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  Your parents likely aren't experts and your you want to make efficient use of your time consulting withstand pediatrician on details, so getting good, expert-written books to cover as much of the general space as possible is a perfectly reasonable strategy. The problem, of course, is finding those books.
  - SirFatty 9y ago
    You illustrate my point exactly, it's not that complicated. I have two young men that my wife and I raised without (GASP) the need of a book. Crazy, I know.. go ahead and mod this comment down also.
    - allannienhuis 9y ago
      Just because you were able to do so doesn't mean that everyone else will be able to do so. Many people don't have good parenting role models in their lives. If the ability to parent well were somehow built-in to us, there would be a lot fewer single-parent homes out there. For some (many) people the wisdom found in well written and researched books will be invaluable. I'm not sure why you seem to come across so strongly against the idea.
    - Angostura 9y ago
      Did you lay the baby on its front or back when you put it to bed?
- jtbayly 9y ago
  You must not be aware of how many millions of men and women have parents that are at best divorced, at worst completely absent or even unknown. And no, pediatricians can't fill that gap.
jakobegger 9y ago
The amount of money that you can spend on a child is virtually unlimited. But almost all of it absolutely optional. Sure, you’ll need diapers and a car seat, but beyond that there’s not a lot that’s absolutely necessary. There’s so much stuff that people think they need to buy, ranging from special vitamins during pregnancy to hypoallergenic formula and baby swimming lessons and educational toys for every age bracket... And then you realise that people who make half the money you do get along just fine and their kids are doing fine and somehow they only need half as much money. Sure, we do spend a lot of money on semi-useful kids stuff (like those skiing lessons that our older son didn’t want to continue after the second day...), but it’s all optional, and if we didn’t have kids I’d probably have a nicer car, but who cares.
- cdubzzz 9y ago
  This was a very important lesson my wife and I received from one of her (married with four children) sisters. Before we decided to have a child, the money aspect was indeed stressing us both out - you can find all kinds of wild estimations on the Internet and in books for the "cost of a child" - and understanding this was eye opening.
- nradov 9y ago
  The folic acid supplements should be considered absolutely necessary. Fortunately they're very cheap. https://www.marchofdimes.org/pregnancy/folic-acid.aspx https://www.marchofdimes.org/pregnancy/folic-acid.aspx
  - manmal 9y ago
    You mean, during pregnancy? Those are really dirt cheap. We opted for a more expensive multivitamin that also had a bit of fish oil in it, but that’s optional. It cost €20 per month.
- trhway 9y ago
  My understanding that vitamin deficiency can be bad, like for example follic acid - spina bifida, vit D - autism. Most people don't have the deficiency of course, yet how to prevent it when they do, and how to detect it?
Angostura 9y ago
Have a wife who earns more than you? Then you have the option of the fun of being a stay at home dad. Job done.
- unit91 9y ago
  > stay at home dad Most (not all) of the time I've observed this, "stay at home dad" is a euphemism for "lazy bum".
desireco42 9y ago
I think this is excellent idea for a book :)

secabeen 9y ago

Yeah, I had the same reaction. The Armin Brott books are quite reasonable. Respectful to new moms, broad enough to cover a range of parental experiences. I would strongly recommend them to any new father, and I make sure my copies circulate to any expectant dad I know.

kleiba 9y ago
I'm a relatively new father too, and the author already lost me much earlier than that part. "Lost me", not as in "I couldn't follow anymore", but as in "this hasn't been my experience at all". My partner bought / were given a couple of books, maybe three or four. Not all of them were read. The ones we did read, we took with a grain of salt, and sometimes humor. More importantly: almost nothing written in any of these books was relevant to our parenting so far, other than very basic, mostly biological information about the expected development stages. Beyond that, nothing really was required in our case, and the books all made pretty clear that all babies are different and that your baby's development will likely differ in one way or the other from what they tell us. So, I don't really get what triggered the author to write this. Or, put differently, it's interesting to read this perspective, but frankly, it differs very much from my own experience.
- grkvlt 9y ago
  You seem to be agreeing pretty much 100% with the views presented by the author in the article. Can you explain more about what you feel is different about your experience?

skyisblue 9y ago

Highly recommend these books too and also about to read Fathering Your Toddler by the same author.

tmnvix 9y ago

This type of comment is all too common across The Guardian to the point that it is almost editorial policy. It's a real shame as The Guardian is one of the better major papers out there in my opinion. I just wish they could face the fact that they have a real problem with this type of snide anti-male remark.

colanderman 9y ago
To be fair I'm not sure whether the quoted sentence is saying fathers, or the books targeted at them, should be given no attention. I read it as referring to the books; otherwise it's a really weird circumlocution.
- tmnvix 9y ago
  I read it to mean the books, but I still see this as a problem. It's the dismissive attitude towards something that concerns men. If you read enough of The Guardian you can't help but think that this dismissiveness is because it concerns men. If they were genuinely interested, they would have found plenty of titles. I really don't want to come across as a "what about us men?" type, but I resent that The Guardian - a paper I once loved - seems to be making a concerted effort to turn me into exactly that sort. It's so incredibly at odds with their feminist/gender equalitarian agenda that I can only assume that they do this to provoke outrage and generate clicks. You only have to read the comments to see that they do a good job of provoking many of their readers. Anyhow, this is getting a long way off topic.