5 ms·

Wow. Lots to digest here, and I think I detect some strong frustration. My sympathies on that. I have worked at the big 4 (MS) but I'm a consultant now. I do a

by snoman 9y ago

Wow. Lots to digest here, and I think I detect some strong frustration. My sympathies on that. I have worked at the big 4 (MS) but I'm a consultant now. I do a fair bit of interviewing and what I propose is that you don't actually have a clue what the finances of your interviewers are like, and you don't actually have a clue what the finances of your competitors are like. You would be far better served putting it out of your mind and focus on just trying to be a good engineer (presuming that's what you are trying to be) and enjoying it. The reason being is that, not only are you almost certainly wrong, but it doesn't matter. Interviewers don't care about how much money the candidates have because... 1. they get a perk if you get hired and retained regardless, so they're incentivized to place anyone that can do the job 2. the competition often doesn't exist: the big 4 will often just hire anyone and everyone who fit their criteria (high turnover and need leads to a few hundred engineers starting each week) 3. the job has a pay band, and if you're currently making low or nil, then you're far more likely to HAPPILY fit into the lower segment of the band BTW: The other interviewers and I can tell when the candidate is crusty and/or resentful during the interview, and it reflects negatively on their performance.

twic 9y ago
> you don't actually have a clue what the finances of your interviewers are like, and you don't actually have a clue what the finances of your competitors are like The point isn't about the wealth of these people, it's about their background, and the resulting confidence and comfort with which they can negotiate the social structure of interview and employment at these companies. > The other interviewers and I can tell when the candidate is crusty and/or resentful Like that, for example.
- allthenews 9y ago
  >The point isn't about the wealth of these people, it's about their background, and the resulting confidence and comfort with which they can negotiate the social structure of interview and employment at these companies. This is simply not true, and imagined. You've been biased by a small subsample of the industry I believe. Programming is one of the few white collar industries that can be entered without a degree. Those rich kids you're interacting with are less likely to have been rich before their tech jobs than those in most other industries. I personally know multiple self taught "rich kid" programmers who lived in third world countries and dirt floors as children.
- user5994461 9y ago
  The big company is half of rich privileged kids and half of people who just moved in to the most expensive city in the world and don't know if they can pay rent the next month. You'll meet both types of people in the interview panel. Interviewers are just people who happen to be here at the moment, they have nothing special. They have the power to grant you the job or not but that doesn't mean anything about their personal life.
drb91 9y ago
I read the problem as being a cultural one, not a financial one.
seanmcdirmid 9y ago
> The reason being is that, not only are you almost certainly wrong, but it doesn't matter. I've noticed that, in this field at least, everyone does come from a much more wealthy background than I do. I once talked about my experience of working at McDonald's as a youth once and got a lot of weird stares. Kids of doctors, professors, etc...I think it is mostly because they went to good schools in the first place, there aren't that man poor kids that go to CMU or Stanford. Heck, it is much worse at the PhD level. The other points are valid: given the talent shortage in our field, they mostly don't care about your background. It is much more relevant during promotions in dysfunctional orgs.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
>> Interviewers don't care about how much money the candidates have because... No, hang on, I get what the OP says and it's a reasonalbe assumption. In large companies with rigid hierarchies, people will often be sort of subtly flash (!) with their money, because it basically marks their position in the hierarchy. You can see this in the clothes people wear, their cars obviously, their phones also obviously, the other tech they proudly display, discussions about where they're going for holidays, or for the weekend etc etc. If you're getting hired in a company with that sort of culture as a recent graduate, say, coming from a less affluent background, then it's easy to feel somewhat excluded.
- booleandilemma 9y ago
  Some of my coworkers have this disgusting habit of putting where they’re going for vacation in the shared Outlook PTO calendar.
- snoman 9y ago
  > No, hang on, I get what the OP says and it's a reasonalbe assumption. It's definitely an assumption, which is a problem to begin with, and it's not a reasonable one. Interviewers often go through training to avoid pre-judging candidates, and candidates would be wise to do the same. An interview candidate gets to talk to a couple of recruiters and have at most 2 conversations with 3-6 engineers at most. I would be pretty suspicious if any of those conversations were about the interviewer in any significant way to begin with, let alone about what they drive, where they're going on vacation, or what they make. So I get what you're saying, and there's certainly people like that anywhere that pays their people exceptionally well, but making assumptions about the character of your future-coworkers before you've actually gotten to know them is a recipe for a bad time.
- throwaway080383 9y ago
  >> You can see this in the clothes people wear A company-branded t-shirt and jeans?
Spooky23 9y ago
He’s talking about culture fit. Where does your average Stanford, Berkeley, MIT grad come from? A: A collection of a couple hundred high schools. Those schools aren’t where middle America comes from. From what I can see, the Valley kicks that up a notch. I considered working for a big 4 after seeing what seemed like a fantastic salary offer. Then I started looking at the cost side of the equation. Forget it — unless you have cash, it does not compute.
tome 9y ago
Interviewers get a perk? That's news to me. I can see recruiters getting a perk, but wouldn't it be a perverse incentive to give interviewers a perk?

by snoman 9y ago

twic 9y ago

> you don't actually have a clue what the finances of your interviewers are like, and you don't actually have a clue what the finances of your competitors are like The point isn't about the wealth of these people, it's about their background, and the resulting confidence and comfort with which they can negotiate the social structure of interview and employment at these companies. > The other interviewers and I can tell when the candidate is crusty and/or resentful Like that, for example.

allthenews 9y ago
>The point isn't about the wealth of these people, it's about their background, and the resulting confidence and comfort with which they can negotiate the social structure of interview and employment at these companies. This is simply not true, and imagined. You've been biased by a small subsample of the industry I believe. Programming is one of the few white collar industries that can be entered without a degree. Those rich kids you're interacting with are less likely to have been rich before their tech jobs than those in most other industries. I personally know multiple self taught "rich kid" programmers who lived in third world countries and dirt floors as children.
user5994461 9y ago
The big company is half of rich privileged kids and half of people who just moved in to the most expensive city in the world and don't know if they can pay rent the next month. You'll meet both types of people in the interview panel. Interviewers are just people who happen to be here at the moment, they have nothing special. They have the power to grant you the job or not but that doesn't mean anything about their personal life.

drb91 9y ago

I read the problem as being a cultural one, not a financial one.

seanmcdirmid 9y ago

> The reason being is that, not only are you almost certainly wrong, but it doesn't matter. I've noticed that, in this field at least, everyone does come from a much more wealthy background than I do. I once talked about my experience of working at McDonald's as a youth once and got a lot of weird stares. Kids of doctors, professors, etc...I think it is mostly because they went to good schools in the first place, there aren't that man poor kids that go to CMU or Stanford. Heck, it is much worse at the PhD level. The other points are valid: given the talent shortage in our field, they mostly don't care about your background. It is much more relevant during promotions in dysfunctional orgs.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago

>> Interviewers don't care about how much money the candidates have because... No, hang on, I get what the OP says and it's a reasonalbe assumption. In large companies with rigid hierarchies, people will often be sort of subtly flash (!) with their money, because it basically marks their position in the hierarchy. You can see this in the clothes people wear, their cars obviously, their phones also obviously, the other tech they proudly display, discussions about where they're going for holidays, or for the weekend etc etc. If you're getting hired in a company with that sort of culture as a recent graduate, say, coming from a less affluent background, then it's easy to feel somewhat excluded.

booleandilemma 9y ago
Some of my coworkers have this disgusting habit of putting where they’re going for vacation in the shared Outlook PTO calendar.
snoman 9y ago
> No, hang on, I get what the OP says and it's a reasonalbe assumption. It's definitely an assumption, which is a problem to begin with, and it's not a reasonable one. Interviewers often go through training to avoid pre-judging candidates, and candidates would be wise to do the same. An interview candidate gets to talk to a couple of recruiters and have at most 2 conversations with 3-6 engineers at most. I would be pretty suspicious if any of those conversations were about the interviewer in any significant way to begin with, let alone about what they drive, where they're going on vacation, or what they make. So I get what you're saying, and there's certainly people like that anywhere that pays their people exceptionally well, but making assumptions about the character of your future-coworkers before you've actually gotten to know them is a recipe for a bad time.
throwaway080383 9y ago
>> You can see this in the clothes people wear A company-branded t-shirt and jeans?

Spooky23 9y ago

He’s talking about culture fit. Where does your average Stanford, Berkeley, MIT grad come from? A: A collection of a couple hundred high schools. Those schools aren’t where middle America comes from. From what I can see, the Valley kicks that up a notch. I considered working for a big 4 after seeing what seemed like a fantastic salary offer. Then I started looking at the cost side of the equation. Forget it — unless you have cash, it does not compute.

tome 9y ago

Interviewers get a perk? That's news to me. I can see recruiters getting a perk, but wouldn't it be a perverse incentive to give interviewers a perk?