13 ms·

“Study Death Always”: Seneca’s advice for living centered on dying

291 points by diodorus 9y ago

pmoriarty 9y ago
I strongly recommend Seneca's On the Shortness of Life. It's one of the best books I've read, and at the very top on the subject of Carpe Diem. https://www.amazon.com/Shortness-Life-Penguin-Great-Ideas/dp/0143036327/ https://www.amazon.com/Shortness-Life-Penguin-Great-Ideas/dp...
- merpnderp 9y ago
  I just read it a few weeks back and was disappointed. His views on life seemed to boil down to something like "make as much wealth as possible, so you can retire as fast as you possibly can, so you can spend all of your time on whatever is meaningful in your life, and by no means ever have any fun." It seemed full of selfish anti-social advice for the extreme curmudgeon. But I also listened to it while on the road, so maybe I missed something.
  - viach 9y ago
    But this is a personal advice, not social ?
  - pmoriarty 9y ago
    This is a short book, but it's full of ideas and already very concentrated as it is. So if you really think you can boil it down to a single sentence, I think you are in fact missing quite a lot. I'm not going to go through the entire book point by point, but here are some salient points your summary misses: One of the main points of the book is that when most people complain that life is short and they don't have much time they are mistaken. They are mistaken for various reasons, one of the main ones being that they waste their time. Seneca would not agree with you that merely spending time "on whatever is meaningful in your life" would necessarily be a good use of your life. He goes on at length to decry the many things that even exceedingly rich people occupy their lives with that he thinks are a waste of time (such as vanity; chasing fame, wealth, or favor; being busy-bodies; concerning themselves with trivia, etc), and then talks about the things he thinks would be a good use of one's time -- the best according to him being (Stoic) philosophy. He emphasizes that one should live for today, rather than for the future. "The greatest hinderance to living is expectancy, which depends upon the morrow and wastes today." "Everyone hurries his life on and suffers from a yearning for the future and a weariness of the present. But he who bestows all of his time on his own needs, who plans out every day as if it were his last, neither longs for nor fears the morrow." So chasing wealth in order to at some future time have the leisure to enjoy it would be antithetical to Seneca, and is in fact one of the things he explicitly argues against: "You will hear many men saying: “After my fiftieth year I shall retire into leisure, my sixtieth year shall release me from public duties.” And what guarantee, pray, have you that your life will last longer? Who will suffer your course to be just as you plan it? Are you not ashamed to reserve for yourself only the remnant of life, and to set apart for wisdom only that time which cannot be devoted to any business? How late it is to begin to live just when we must cease to live! What foolish forgetfulness of mortality to postpone wholesome plans to the fiftieth and sixtieth year, and to intend to begin life at a point to which few have attained!" He's not encouraging the reader to chase after any get-rich-quick schemes either. The man upon whom fortune smiles today could be crushed under its foot tomorrow. Self-mastery and tranquility of mind is what he's after, as only then can one be indifferent to fortune's whims. There's much more as well. This book is just so chock full of wisdom, I can not praise it highly enough. I really recommend you sit down one day, read through it slowly, and carefully think through each of the things he says.
    - merpnderp 9y ago
      That brought back a few memories of the book. I remember being extremely turned off when he listed all the things a person shouldn't do for a living and wondering if this book was only targeted at those who were born independently wealthy.
  - asveikau 9y ago
    >> I strongly recommend Seneca's On the Shortness of Life. > I just read it a few weeks back and was disappointed. Too short, was it?
  - elbear 9y ago
    How does "spend all of your time on whatever is meaningful in your life" mean "never have any fun"? Or you mean leisure activities like watching a game or going for coffee?
- fuball63 9y ago
  Another great work is "On a Happy Life". https://www.gutenberg.org/files/56075/56075-h/56075-h.htm https://www.gutenberg.org/files/56075/56075-h/56075-h.htm
- petercooper 9y ago
  I wrote up some notes and summaries of this book several years ago when I read it for anyone without the time: http://peterc.org/pedia/seneca-shortness-of-life/ http://peterc.org/pedia/seneca-shortness-of-life/ (though I do recommend reading the book, it is not very long!)
hawktheslayer 9y ago
Sam Harris recently had a podcast on the topic for those who are interested: https://samharris.org/podcasts/the-lessons-of-death/ https://samharris.org/podcasts/the-lessons-of-death/
fapjacks 9y ago
The Stoics of ancient times had something profound to say about everything, it seems. The reason for that, of course, is because what they actually describe is a way of thinking, a way of life. As you can gather from the article, there is also some religious context which is really fairly optional. Or at least you could substitute your own religious beliefs in with all the talk about God. But you can apply Stoic principles to really any situation you could think of. No kidding, and as implausible as it sounds, I've thought of things I read from Marcus Aurelius in the heat of combat, just having sort of popped into my mind. Though I will say that I'd been through a really tough stretch of life around that time, and had been reading some of the Stoics (among others) as an escape. So it's just as likely chance as anything else that brought that dude's writing to mind. Marcus Aurelius is kind of held up among the other greats of Stoic philosophy, but Seneca is really IMO the best. Epictetus is a close second. But Marcus Aurelius is popular because of course he was the Emperor, and never intended on publishing his diaries (which we today call "Meditations"). You want a rabbit hole that will save your life, perhaps not only figuratively? Here it is!
- _mhr_ 9y ago
  If you don't mind me asking: which Aurelius idea(s) specifically popped into your head, and how did it save you?
  - Jerry64545 9y ago
    Yes me too would you like to know about this specific idea.
  - fapjacks 9y ago
    Hmm. I suppose I should clarify that these ideas did not save me in combat, and probably would not save anyone in combat. There isn't a philosophy in this universe that would save you from "Whoops! Should have juked right when I juked left!"... But from other things that can kill you, Stoic philosophy will set you up for survival. About the question, though, I thought about what he said about telling friends and family you're always busy. It was just something that came to mind, making me wish I'd spent more of my time with people I enjoy being around.
damontal 9y ago
Aurelius said that all you have is the present moment so when you die the only thing you can lose is the present moment. That one really stuck with me.
- spraak 9y ago
  But you don't lose the moment... you go into a new body. (Anticipating down votes for this, though)
  - gboudrias 9y ago
    You anticipated correctly yet you don't seem to realize why. Where can we possibly take this conversation now except into a religious flame war? If you had approached it from a philosophical perspective, we could actually have a fruitful (or at least interesting) exchange of words. As it stands you dove straight into belief territory, which obviously cannot be debated productively. (I don't mean to be a jerk but I do mean to criticize your apparent lack of self-awareness.)
    - spraak 9y ago
      Yeah, that makes sense. But I don't understand what you mean about lack of self awareness? (Perhaps validating your point)
      - gboudrias 9y ago
        I'm a (sort-of) Buddhist myself but I don't presume to know anything for certain, especially not how it should affect the way we see our lives. It just seems arrogant to me to present such things as facts, without so much as an argument. Sorry, shoulda been clearer in my initial reply.
  - miles 9y ago
    The downvotes may be more from the baiting ("Anticipating down votes for this...") than the opinion expressed. Even Wikipedia (normally not a bastion of support for the "unexplained") offers a fairly balanced take on Stevenson's Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty_Cases_Suggestive_of_Reincarnation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty_Cases_Suggestive_of_Rei...
la6470 9y ago
Dare I say the Eastern religions which are philosophies in their own right have expressed this again and again in a much more beautiful way. That is why in spite of thousand of years of attempts by missionaries to erase them or the total near dominance of western values in the world today - these religions and their inherent philosophies thrives even today.
killjoywashere 9y ago
I think the specialization of our society has really cost us in terms of becoming acquainted with death. My career path (military, medicine, pathology) has brought me in closer contact with death than most. And I'm a huge fan of Stoicism. Have read everything from Epictetus, Seneca, Aurelius. The act of witnessing death, the event itself, has had a profound centering effect. Be careful with the arrow of causality here. Thinking about death is probably not that healthy of an idea. But exposing yourself to death is probably quite valuable. Consider volunteering at a hospital or nursing home, or even an animal shelter.
- enkid 9y ago
  Thinking about death in a healthy way is a good idea, which is what exposing yourself to it would do.
- Tossrock 9y ago
  Your comment, and this piece reminded me a lot of one I read about the perception of death in Bhutan[1]: “Rich people in the West, they have not touched dead bodies, fresh wounds, rotten things. This is a problem. This is the human condition. We have to be ready for the moment we cease to exist.” [1]:http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20150408-bhutans-dark-secret-to-happiness http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20150408-bhutans-dark-secret...
tw1010 9y ago
For some reason HN has been mimetically pulled into the seneca philosophy. Just so you guys know, there are many many many other philosophies and really great books about ways to look at life and how to live it than just stoicism. Don't let something as important as a life philosophy be steered by social media influencer culture. Take some time to read from sources outside your filter bubble. Your 70 year old self will thank you for it.
- netc 9y ago
  Can you suggest few readings?
  - HiroshiSan 9y ago
    The Bible edit: For those of you down voting me for whatever reason, can you at least contribute to the discussion and explain how my answer was a poor one? The bible is one of the greatest stories ever told containing a myriad of different ways at looking at life.
    - AlexCoventry 9y ago
      I think a big factor is that many people here are surrounded by people who are steeped in Biblical culture, yet living objectively terrible lives. The dominant religious narrative of any culture is inevitably corrupted by temporal pressures. Also, while I agree there are many valuable lessons to be learned from the Bible, the New Testament is not a book for people who strive for wealth, and HN attracts strivers. Not to say you can't be a Christian and strive for wealth, but the striving is going to come from some other part of your life, and it's going to force you to compartmentalize Christian values to some extent. Seneca, on the other hand, was unapologetically wealthy, and his philosophy was consistent with that.
    - waynecochran 9y ago
      A particularly important read concerning the meaning of life is the book of Ecclesiastes. It tells of Solomon’s great experiment of finding meaning in knowledge, pleasure, wealth, accomplishment, etc.. I am often bewildered by those who pour a great deal of energy in planning for retirement and ignoring the fact that they will soon thereafter be pushing up daisies. Death awaits us all.
jrochkind1 9y ago
I haven't read the article, but the general point is also a teaching in some kinds of Buddhist philosophy. (Googling, others who know more about both have made this connection too: https://dailystoic.com/stoicism-buddhism/ https://dailystoic.com/stoicism-buddhism/ For that matter, from that article: "[stoicism stresses] being in accordance with nature and accepting all of the things that happen in life" reminds me that the word "Islam" means "submission" in this sense too -- accepting what God gives you, i.e. what the 'universe' gives you. I guess there's probably some fundamental similarities at the root of most spirituality)
fizixer 9y ago
If you agree with this, it makes it a lot easier to realize what the current purpose of human life is, i.e., to achieve biological longevity. (By 'current' I mean until we achieve this, it's not of much use to ponder the bigger question of why we're truly here). This mindset can be used as an alternative to existentialism in which you realize life has no purpose, and that is followed by 'you make your own purpose'. It helps eliminate some of the post-modernistic relativism and introduces some level of objectivity into this big question.
- enkid 9y ago
  Seneca would not agree. He thought how you lived was much more important than how long you lived. The stoa did not view death as a bad thing, rather as a change in state.
wittedhaddock 9y ago
for editor: I remember reading that Seneca died not by suicide, but by first slitting his wrists -- and not dying -- before he then went to the bath and died by chocking on the steam, is his death reason controversial?
- pmoriarty 9y ago
  It's more his life rather than his death that's controversial. During his life he chose to serve Nero, one of Rome's bloodiest tyrants, and profited greatly from his service. To some that has seemed rather hypocritical for someone who preached a life of self-denial, detachment from worldly things, and distance from rulers and politics. In Seneca's defense, some have pointed out that he tried to moderate Nero and steer him towards the path of virtue, though he ultimately failed.
deleted 9y ago
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beefinethan 9y ago
I've been an avid reader of Stoicism, and was introduced to it by, you guessed it, Tim Ferriss. I have been conciously trying to adopt the philosophies and mantras into my day to day life. Have compiled the following tangible techniques/approaches to thought feel free to add your own: * Premeditatio Malorum (premeditation of evils or Negative Visualization) * Stoic Fork - Make the best use of things in your control and let nature handle the rest * Temporary Ownership - Never think of things you own as yours, merely borrowing from the universe (recycle) * Superficial Experimentation - Put yourself through situations that warrant ridicule in order to become resistant to it * Worse Case Scenario Simulation - Set aside a certain number of days to eat the cheapest food and cheapest clothing asking yourself: is this the condition I so feared? Make yourself uncomfortable * Only be ashamed of things worth being ashamed of; inoculate against superficial attachment in what others think * Planned Fasting * Planned Cold * Planned Poverty * Planned Ugly Clothing * Context Shifting - Cosmic relativism; remember you’re going to die and the world will keep turning * Growth mindset - praise yourself for the work not the result; challenge creates growth * Remove Distractions - am I afraid of death because I won’t be able to do THIS anymore ? If it’s no, then Remove the conveniences. * Opinions to actions - opinions are fine to have and express if they are followed by action but you shouldn’t have an opinion to have an opinion * Default to action - action before talking; so what needs to be done instead of “I should” * Daily quote meditation - take a stoic quote and reflect on how to apply it to your life everyday * Stoic Mindfulness - be in the moment; be attentive to what’s happening * Daily reflection journal - what did I do right ? What did I do wrong? What could I have done better? * Art of Aquiescence
- IAmGraydon 9y ago
  I'm genuinely curious - what is this mindset supposed to accomplish?
  - bg4 9y ago
    Freedom from anguish
  - jck 9y ago
    Tranquility
acabal 9y ago
The project I run, Standard Ebooks, has all of Seneca's dialogs available for free for your ereader: https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/seneca/dialogues/aubrey-stewart https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/seneca/dialogues/aubrey-st... If you're interested in Stoic philosophy, Marcus Aurelius is also an excellent read: https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/marcus-aurelius/meditations/george-long https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/marcus-aurelius/meditation... Stewart's Seneca translation is admittedly not a super great one, but it does the job. Long's Marcus Aurelius translation is very solid though.
- philwelch 9y ago
  While I like Marcus Aurelius, I find Gregory Hays' translation more readable than Long's.
bkohlmann 9y ago
I've recently started participating in Funeral Honors Details as a Navy Reservist. We fold the flag, present it to the next of kin, play taps, and provide an honorable exit for anybody who has served. It's been the most meaningful part of my 14 years of military service - which included a combat deployment. Simply walking through the cemetery before the service is profound. All that remains of a life time of stories is usually just a name and a date. It's humbling to reflect that within 100 years (at the very very most), I too will be there...and some random stranger may come across my grave. Death makes life all the more meaningful for me. Engaging with mourning families at least monthly helps me cherish my moments doing the things I love all the more.
- mutagen 9y ago
  Thank you for this service. My friend's step-father recently passed away. He was a Vietnam era veteran and didn't leave this world with much planning for his passing. The service provided by the volunteers was of huge comfort to my friend and his family, the simple yet meaningful service lent dignity to the end of a situation that didn't have much of it.
happy-go-lucky 9y ago
Here's an interesting read: Parallels in Hindu and Stoic Ethical Thought http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/public/articles/parallels_in_hindu_and_stoic_ethical_thought.aspx http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/public/articles/... > Krishna reminded Arjuna that "Thinking about sense objects will attach you to sense objects. Grow attached and you become addicted. Thwart your addiction, it turns to anger. Be angry and you confuse your mind. Confuse your mind, you forget the lesson of experience. Forget experience, you lose discrimination. Lose discrimination, and you miss life's only purpose".
- Jerry64545 9y ago
  This is a comparison b/w oranges and pigs. Hinduism is founded by priests to favor Brahmin's and nothing more. Instead of the slavery like in US which is binary(slave or not-slave) in hinduism the caste system is a multiple levels of slavery. Any caste must be a slave to another and if they obey(no choice) they will get another caste as their slaves. Finally at the root node is this Dailt people who are slave to every one in the hierarchy. In contrast Stoic is religion agonistic, in fact Stoicism does not care of religion. Seneca talks about how it does not matter if there is a god exists or not in his reference to free will and determinism in his letters.
AlexB138 9y ago
I wrote this in response to someone asking about other Stoic writings who, in the interim, deleted their response, so I'll post it as a stand-alone response: I'm an avid reader of Stoic philosophy, to the point I would say it's a central pillar of my life. I would strongly advocate anyone interested in Stoicism not read these recent texts first, or, if I'm honest, really at all. I get that they're trying to making it approachable, but I feel that in an attempt to modernize the message they really lose most of it. One of the beautiful things about Stoicism is that the ancient philosophers were very mindful of speaking plainly, and their texts are extremely approachable. Epictetus' Enchiridion is very easy to parse and is packed full of very practical knowledge. It is one hundred percent the place to start. Following that, read Seneca's letters to Lucilius, which are titled either Moral Letters to Lucilius or Letters from a Stoic. These are very straight forward teachings in very direct language. Beyond that there's a whole canon of writing. The only extant writing from Stoic philosophers are from Epictetus and Seneca. There are fragments from Musonius Rufus, and a small handful from the very ancients like Chrysippus and Zeno. There are writings about Stoicism by Marcus Aurelius, a very famous follower but not a teacher himself, and by Cicero, though he also wrote against the philosophy in other places. Marcus Aurelius' writings are very approachable and often recommended. There are a few modern academic writings I would suggest to someone who has read the ancient sources, specifically the papers by A.A. Long. If you absolutely must have a modern book about the school, I'll contradict my earlier statement and say that William B. Irvine's A Guide to the Good Life is one exception. I love Stoicism and am happy to talk about it at length. Anyone who is interested can feel free to contact me about it, my email is in my profile. Ad fontes!
- Lynolix 9y ago
  Have you had a chance to read Massimo Pigliucci 's How To Be A Stoic?
  - AlexB138 9y ago
    I've not, thought I'm somewhat familiar with Massimo through his other work. Would you recommend it?
akira2501 9y ago
So, the western version of Maranasati? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara%E1%B9%87asati https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara%E1%B9%87asati

291 points by diodorus 9y ago

I strongly recommend Seneca's On the Shortness of Life. It's one of the best books I've read, and at the very top on the subject of Carpe Diem. https://www.amazon.com/Shortness-Life-Penguin-Great-Ideas/dp/0143036327/ https://www.amazon.com/Shortness-Life-Penguin-Great-Ideas/dp...

merpnderp 9y ago
I just read it a few weeks back and was disappointed. His views on life seemed to boil down to something like "make as much wealth as possible, so you can retire as fast as you possibly can, so you can spend all of your time on whatever is meaningful in your life, and by no means ever have any fun." It seemed full of selfish anti-social advice for the extreme curmudgeon. But I also listened to it while on the road, so maybe I missed something.
- viach 9y ago
  But this is a personal advice, not social ?
- pmoriarty 9y ago
  This is a short book, but it's full of ideas and already very concentrated as it is. So if you really think you can boil it down to a single sentence, I think you are in fact missing quite a lot. I'm not going to go through the entire book point by point, but here are some salient points your summary misses: One of the main points of the book is that when most people complain that life is short and they don't have much time they are mistaken. They are mistaken for various reasons, one of the main ones being that they waste their time. Seneca would not agree with you that merely spending time "on whatever is meaningful in your life" would necessarily be a good use of your life. He goes on at length to decry the many things that even exceedingly rich people occupy their lives with that he thinks are a waste of time (such as vanity; chasing fame, wealth, or favor; being busy-bodies; concerning themselves with trivia, etc), and then talks about the things he thinks would be a good use of one's time -- the best according to him being (Stoic) philosophy. He emphasizes that one should live for today, rather than for the future. "The greatest hinderance to living is expectancy, which depends upon the morrow and wastes today." "Everyone hurries his life on and suffers from a yearning for the future and a weariness of the present. But he who bestows all of his time on his own needs, who plans out every day as if it were his last, neither longs for nor fears the morrow." So chasing wealth in order to at some future time have the leisure to enjoy it would be antithetical to Seneca, and is in fact one of the things he explicitly argues against: "You will hear many men saying: “After my fiftieth year I shall retire into leisure, my sixtieth year shall release me from public duties.” And what guarantee, pray, have you that your life will last longer? Who will suffer your course to be just as you plan it? Are you not ashamed to reserve for yourself only the remnant of life, and to set apart for wisdom only that time which cannot be devoted to any business? How late it is to begin to live just when we must cease to live! What foolish forgetfulness of mortality to postpone wholesome plans to the fiftieth and sixtieth year, and to intend to begin life at a point to which few have attained!" He's not encouraging the reader to chase after any get-rich-quick schemes either. The man upon whom fortune smiles today could be crushed under its foot tomorrow. Self-mastery and tranquility of mind is what he's after, as only then can one be indifferent to fortune's whims. There's much more as well. This book is just so chock full of wisdom, I can not praise it highly enough. I really recommend you sit down one day, read through it slowly, and carefully think through each of the things he says.
  - merpnderp 9y ago
    That brought back a few memories of the book. I remember being extremely turned off when he listed all the things a person shouldn't do for a living and wondering if this book was only targeted at those who were born independently wealthy.
- asveikau 9y ago
  >> I strongly recommend Seneca's On the Shortness of Life. > I just read it a few weeks back and was disappointed. Too short, was it?
- elbear 9y ago
  How does "spend all of your time on whatever is meaningful in your life" mean "never have any fun"? Or you mean leisure activities like watching a game or going for coffee?
fuball63 9y ago
Another great work is "On a Happy Life". https://www.gutenberg.org/files/56075/56075-h/56075-h.htm https://www.gutenberg.org/files/56075/56075-h/56075-h.htm
petercooper 9y ago
I wrote up some notes and summaries of this book several years ago when I read it for anyone without the time: http://peterc.org/pedia/seneca-shortness-of-life/ http://peterc.org/pedia/seneca-shortness-of-life/ (though I do recommend reading the book, it is not very long!)

hawktheslayer 9y ago

Sam Harris recently had a podcast on the topic for those who are interested: https://samharris.org/podcasts/the-lessons-of-death/ https://samharris.org/podcasts/the-lessons-of-death/

fapjacks 9y ago

The Stoics of ancient times had something profound to say about everything, it seems. The reason for that, of course, is because what they actually describe is a way of thinking, a way of life. As you can gather from the article, there is also some religious context which is really fairly optional. Or at least you could substitute your own religious beliefs in with all the talk about God. But you can apply Stoic principles to really any situation you could think of. No kidding, and as implausible as it sounds, I've thought of things I read from Marcus Aurelius in the heat of combat, just having sort of popped into my mind. Though I will say that I'd been through a really tough stretch of life around that time, and had been reading some of the Stoics (among others) as an escape. So it's just as likely chance as anything else that brought that dude's writing to mind. Marcus Aurelius is kind of held up among the other greats of Stoic philosophy, but Seneca is really IMO the best. Epictetus is a close second. But Marcus Aurelius is popular because of course he was the Emperor, and never intended on publishing his diaries (which we today call "Meditations"). You want a rabbit hole that will save your life, perhaps not only figuratively? Here it is!

_mhr_ 9y ago
If you don't mind me asking: which Aurelius idea(s) specifically popped into your head, and how did it save you?
- Jerry64545 9y ago
  Yes me too would you like to know about this specific idea.
- fapjacks 9y ago
  Hmm. I suppose I should clarify that these ideas did not save me in combat, and probably would not save anyone in combat. There isn't a philosophy in this universe that would save you from "Whoops! Should have juked right when I juked left!"... But from other things that can kill you, Stoic philosophy will set you up for survival. About the question, though, I thought about what he said about telling friends and family you're always busy. It was just something that came to mind, making me wish I'd spent more of my time with people I enjoy being around.

damontal 9y ago

Aurelius said that all you have is the present moment so when you die the only thing you can lose is the present moment. That one really stuck with me.

spraak 9y ago
But you don't lose the moment... you go into a new body. (Anticipating down votes for this, though)
- gboudrias 9y ago
  You anticipated correctly yet you don't seem to realize why. Where can we possibly take this conversation now except into a religious flame war? If you had approached it from a philosophical perspective, we could actually have a fruitful (or at least interesting) exchange of words. As it stands you dove straight into belief territory, which obviously cannot be debated productively. (I don't mean to be a jerk but I do mean to criticize your apparent lack of self-awareness.)
  - spraak 9y ago
    Yeah, that makes sense. But I don't understand what you mean about lack of self awareness? (Perhaps validating your point)
    - gboudrias 9y ago
      I'm a (sort-of) Buddhist myself but I don't presume to know anything for certain, especially not how it should affect the way we see our lives. It just seems arrogant to me to present such things as facts, without so much as an argument. Sorry, shoulda been clearer in my initial reply.
- miles 9y ago
  The downvotes may be more from the baiting ("Anticipating down votes for this...") than the opinion expressed. Even Wikipedia (normally not a bastion of support for the "unexplained") offers a fairly balanced take on Stevenson's Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty_Cases_Suggestive_of_Reincarnation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty_Cases_Suggestive_of_Rei...

la6470 9y ago

Dare I say the Eastern religions which are philosophies in their own right have expressed this again and again in a much more beautiful way. That is why in spite of thousand of years of attempts by missionaries to erase them or the total near dominance of western values in the world today - these religions and their inherent philosophies thrives even today.

killjoywashere 9y ago

I think the specialization of our society has really cost us in terms of becoming acquainted with death. My career path (military, medicine, pathology) has brought me in closer contact with death than most. And I'm a huge fan of Stoicism. Have read everything from Epictetus, Seneca, Aurelius. The act of witnessing death, the event itself, has had a profound centering effect. Be careful with the arrow of causality here. Thinking about death is probably not that healthy of an idea. But exposing yourself to death is probably quite valuable. Consider volunteering at a hospital or nursing home, or even an animal shelter.

enkid 9y ago
Thinking about death in a healthy way is a good idea, which is what exposing yourself to it would do.
Tossrock 9y ago
Your comment, and this piece reminded me a lot of one I read about the perception of death in Bhutan[1]: “Rich people in the West, they have not touched dead bodies, fresh wounds, rotten things. This is a problem. This is the human condition. We have to be ready for the moment we cease to exist.” [1]:http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20150408-bhutans-dark-secret-to-happiness http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20150408-bhutans-dark-secret...

tw1010 9y ago

For some reason HN has been mimetically pulled into the seneca philosophy. Just so you guys know, there are many many many other philosophies and really great books about ways to look at life and how to live it than just stoicism. Don't let something as important as a life philosophy be steered by social media influencer culture. Take some time to read from sources outside your filter bubble. Your 70 year old self will thank you for it.

netc 9y ago
Can you suggest few readings?
- HiroshiSan 9y ago
  The Bible edit: For those of you down voting me for whatever reason, can you at least contribute to the discussion and explain how my answer was a poor one? The bible is one of the greatest stories ever told containing a myriad of different ways at looking at life.
  - AlexCoventry 9y ago
    I think a big factor is that many people here are surrounded by people who are steeped in Biblical culture, yet living objectively terrible lives. The dominant religious narrative of any culture is inevitably corrupted by temporal pressures. Also, while I agree there are many valuable lessons to be learned from the Bible, the New Testament is not a book for people who strive for wealth, and HN attracts strivers. Not to say you can't be a Christian and strive for wealth, but the striving is going to come from some other part of your life, and it's going to force you to compartmentalize Christian values to some extent. Seneca, on the other hand, was unapologetically wealthy, and his philosophy was consistent with that.
  - waynecochran 9y ago
    A particularly important read concerning the meaning of life is the book of Ecclesiastes. It tells of Solomon’s great experiment of finding meaning in knowledge, pleasure, wealth, accomplishment, etc.. I am often bewildered by those who pour a great deal of energy in planning for retirement and ignoring the fact that they will soon thereafter be pushing up daisies. Death awaits us all.

jrochkind1 9y ago

I haven't read the article, but the general point is also a teaching in some kinds of Buddhist philosophy. (Googling, others who know more about both have made this connection too: https://dailystoic.com/stoicism-buddhism/ https://dailystoic.com/stoicism-buddhism/ For that matter, from that article: "[stoicism stresses] being in accordance with nature and accepting all of the things that happen in life" reminds me that the word "Islam" means "submission" in this sense too -- accepting what God gives you, i.e. what the 'universe' gives you. I guess there's probably some fundamental similarities at the root of most spirituality)

fizixer 9y ago

If you agree with this, it makes it a lot easier to realize what the current purpose of human life is, i.e., to achieve biological longevity. (By 'current' I mean until we achieve this, it's not of much use to ponder the bigger question of why we're truly here). This mindset can be used as an alternative to existentialism in which you realize life has no purpose, and that is followed by 'you make your own purpose'. It helps eliminate some of the post-modernistic relativism and introduces some level of objectivity into this big question.

enkid 9y ago
Seneca would not agree. He thought how you lived was much more important than how long you lived. The stoa did not view death as a bad thing, rather as a change in state.

wittedhaddock 9y ago

for editor: I remember reading that Seneca died not by suicide, but by first slitting his wrists -- and not dying -- before he then went to the bath and died by chocking on the steam, is his death reason controversial?

pmoriarty 9y ago
It's more his life rather than his death that's controversial. During his life he chose to serve Nero, one of Rome's bloodiest tyrants, and profited greatly from his service. To some that has seemed rather hypocritical for someone who preached a life of self-denial, detachment from worldly things, and distance from rulers and politics. In Seneca's defense, some have pointed out that he tried to moderate Nero and steer him towards the path of virtue, though he ultimately failed.

deleted 9y ago

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beefinethan 9y ago

I've been an avid reader of Stoicism, and was introduced to it by, you guessed it, Tim Ferriss. I have been conciously trying to adopt the philosophies and mantras into my day to day life. Have compiled the following tangible techniques/approaches to thought feel free to add your own: * Premeditatio Malorum (premeditation of evils or Negative Visualization) * Stoic Fork - Make the best use of things in your control and let nature handle the rest * Temporary Ownership - Never think of things you own as yours, merely borrowing from the universe (recycle) * Superficial Experimentation - Put yourself through situations that warrant ridicule in order to become resistant to it * Worse Case Scenario Simulation - Set aside a certain number of days to eat the cheapest food and cheapest clothing asking yourself: is this the condition I so feared? Make yourself uncomfortable * Only be ashamed of things worth being ashamed of; inoculate against superficial attachment in what others think * Planned Fasting * Planned Cold * Planned Poverty * Planned Ugly Clothing * Context Shifting - Cosmic relativism; remember you’re going to die and the world will keep turning * Growth mindset - praise yourself for the work not the result; challenge creates growth * Remove Distractions - am I afraid of death because I won’t be able to do THIS anymore ? If it’s no, then Remove the conveniences. * Opinions to actions - opinions are fine to have and express if they are followed by action but you shouldn’t have an opinion to have an opinion * Default to action - action before talking; so what needs to be done instead of “I should” * Daily quote meditation - take a stoic quote and reflect on how to apply it to your life everyday * Stoic Mindfulness - be in the moment; be attentive to what’s happening * Daily reflection journal - what did I do right ? What did I do wrong? What could I have done better? * Art of Aquiescence

IAmGraydon 9y ago
I'm genuinely curious - what is this mindset supposed to accomplish?
- bg4 9y ago
  Freedom from anguish
- jck 9y ago
  Tranquility

acabal 9y ago

The project I run, Standard Ebooks, has all of Seneca's dialogs available for free for your ereader: https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/seneca/dialogues/aubrey-stewart https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/seneca/dialogues/aubrey-st... If you're interested in Stoic philosophy, Marcus Aurelius is also an excellent read: https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/marcus-aurelius/meditations/george-long https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/marcus-aurelius/meditation... Stewart's Seneca translation is admittedly not a super great one, but it does the job. Long's Marcus Aurelius translation is very solid though.

philwelch 9y ago
While I like Marcus Aurelius, I find Gregory Hays' translation more readable than Long's.

bkohlmann 9y ago

I've recently started participating in Funeral Honors Details as a Navy Reservist. We fold the flag, present it to the next of kin, play taps, and provide an honorable exit for anybody who has served. It's been the most meaningful part of my 14 years of military service - which included a combat deployment. Simply walking through the cemetery before the service is profound. All that remains of a life time of stories is usually just a name and a date. It's humbling to reflect that within 100 years (at the very very most), I too will be there...and some random stranger may come across my grave. Death makes life all the more meaningful for me. Engaging with mourning families at least monthly helps me cherish my moments doing the things I love all the more.

mutagen 9y ago
Thank you for this service. My friend's step-father recently passed away. He was a Vietnam era veteran and didn't leave this world with much planning for his passing. The service provided by the volunteers was of huge comfort to my friend and his family, the simple yet meaningful service lent dignity to the end of a situation that didn't have much of it.

happy-go-lucky 9y ago

Here's an interesting read: Parallels in Hindu and Stoic Ethical Thought http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/public/articles/parallels_in_hindu_and_stoic_ethical_thought.aspx http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/public/articles/... > Krishna reminded Arjuna that "Thinking about sense objects will attach you to sense objects. Grow attached and you become addicted. Thwart your addiction, it turns to anger. Be angry and you confuse your mind. Confuse your mind, you forget the lesson of experience. Forget experience, you lose discrimination. Lose discrimination, and you miss life's only purpose".

Jerry64545 9y ago
This is a comparison b/w oranges and pigs. Hinduism is founded by priests to favor Brahmin's and nothing more. Instead of the slavery like in US which is binary(slave or not-slave) in hinduism the caste system is a multiple levels of slavery. Any caste must be a slave to another and if they obey(no choice) they will get another caste as their slaves. Finally at the root node is this Dailt people who are slave to every one in the hierarchy. In contrast Stoic is religion agonistic, in fact Stoicism does not care of religion. Seneca talks about how it does not matter if there is a god exists or not in his reference to free will and determinism in his letters.

AlexB138 9y ago

I wrote this in response to someone asking about other Stoic writings who, in the interim, deleted their response, so I'll post it as a stand-alone response: I'm an avid reader of Stoic philosophy, to the point I would say it's a central pillar of my life. I would strongly advocate anyone interested in Stoicism not read these recent texts first, or, if I'm honest, really at all. I get that they're trying to making it approachable, but I feel that in an attempt to modernize the message they really lose most of it. One of the beautiful things about Stoicism is that the ancient philosophers were very mindful of speaking plainly, and their texts are extremely approachable. Epictetus' Enchiridion is very easy to parse and is packed full of very practical knowledge. It is one hundred percent the place to start. Following that, read Seneca's letters to Lucilius, which are titled either Moral Letters to Lucilius or Letters from a Stoic. These are very straight forward teachings in very direct language. Beyond that there's a whole canon of writing. The only extant writing from Stoic philosophers are from Epictetus and Seneca. There are fragments from Musonius Rufus, and a small handful from the very ancients like Chrysippus and Zeno. There are writings about Stoicism by Marcus Aurelius, a very famous follower but not a teacher himself, and by Cicero, though he also wrote against the philosophy in other places. Marcus Aurelius' writings are very approachable and often recommended. There are a few modern academic writings I would suggest to someone who has read the ancient sources, specifically the papers by A.A. Long. If you absolutely must have a modern book about the school, I'll contradict my earlier statement and say that William B. Irvine's A Guide to the Good Life is one exception. I love Stoicism and am happy to talk about it at length. Anyone who is interested can feel free to contact me about it, my email is in my profile. Ad fontes!

Lynolix 9y ago
Have you had a chance to read Massimo Pigliucci 's How To Be A Stoic?
- AlexB138 9y ago
  I've not, thought I'm somewhat familiar with Massimo through his other work. Would you recommend it?

akira2501 9y ago

So, the western version of Maranasati? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara%E1%B9%87asati https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara%E1%B9%87asati