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Ever since I saw that video I've been wondering how effective it would be to use essentially an upgraded fire suppression system to take on the drones. Essenti

by robkop 9y ago

Ever since I saw that video I've been wondering how effective it would be to use essentially an upgraded fire suppression system to take on the drones. Essentially instead of spraying water out of the sprinklers, spray paint or other liquids that would block the vision of the drones. I think that would be a lot cheaper and harder to build defences for than an EMP. (Just realised that you could also spray a opaque gas which would also block vision and might make less of a mess to clean up).

IntronExon 9y ago
How about spraying a rapidly hardening foam or stringy polymer? Kill the damned thing.
- robkop 9y ago
  I would worry about spraying rapidly hardening foam in a room filled with people (not sure if you can breath under it, nevermind how you get people out). String polymer sounds like it could work, my only concern would be if you could design prop guards for the drones such that they filter the air (very coarsely) and don't allow any objects to touch the props.
  - IntronExon 9y ago
    In the former case, granted. In the latter, you could also use powdered magnets, some form of self-adhering powder, etc. the basic idea of attacking rotors should be hard to defend against.
    - bsder 9y ago
      Pulsejets don't need rotors. https://hackaday.com/2011/09/05/engine-hacks-a-pulse-jet-uav-by-any-other-name-would-still-be-a-cruise-missile/ https://hackaday.com/2011/09/05/engine-hacks-a-pulse-jet-uav...
      - IntronExon 9y ago
        True, yet they do have intakes, and would be even easier to foul than rotors.
- stock_toaster 9y ago
  Or.... nets?
state_less 9y ago
I imagine instead of liquids or silly string, we'll witness the first robot wars. A military base might have robotic sentry guns [1] to begin with, as they are already armed with these today to defend against incoming mortars. Later on, I imagine with offensive drone capabilities being developed, it will lead to repurposing the drones in a defensive posture. Perhaps the best answer is to scale with the threat. The defensive drone fleet circle the base. Upon a detection of an incoming fleet, rather than one sentry gun taking on 100 or 1000 drones, a defensive swarm targets the incoming swarm. More of a one-to-one fight or perhaps 1:4 if your drones are more capable fighters. This is all a bit of a bummer. We talk about how we'll get robots to obey the three laws of robotics, but it'd be nice if we could just get humans to follow the first law. "A robot (human) may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm." [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4PXou0aGiE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4PXou0aGiE
- robkop 9y ago
  I've seen the robotically controlled Lockheed Martin laser that is meant to be able to take on drone swarms which is very similar to what you are talking about. The question to me is how do you defend civilian targets like universities, city halls and malls? You can't build military style defences around these targets and the budget is going to be pretty low. Also you need a exceptionally low response time since the drones can deploy and kill in seconds.
  - state_less 9y ago
    That's difficult to answer. Soft targets are, well, soft. If you arm the state capital, they'll move to the university, museum, or large landmark. Protect those, and they'll move to further down the chain. Perhaps one of the best option is to try to prevent social unrest before it happens. Maybe we can repurpose tech to help us communicate better with each other. Beyond that, you might see people purchasing defensive measures once attacks become more of a threat. Whether that's lasers, other drones or something we haven't thought of. There would be a demand for counter measures - you can already see the market forming for such counter measures.
Someone 9y ago
Whatever you want to put on the enemy drone, you’ll want to get it there fast, to prevent the drone from making evasive maneuvres. For a fixed reaction time of the drone, speedier delivery also means you can attack from larger range. I think that arms race will rather quickly lead to the use of very fast moving objects that don’t slow down much due to air resistance (i.e. bullets or missiles)
yters 9y ago
Could some kind of coarse powder foul up the props?
- FridgeSeal 9y ago
  Potentially, but it would be easy for drone manufacturers to defend against, and you would likely need to make the target area so dense with the particulate that it probably wouldn't stay in the air long and the drone could potentially wait you out. The other direction you could possibly go is a super-fine, but conductive powder (would carbon powder work?) that could get in the motors and potentially cause a short. Particulates that fine would probably be a health risk though.
  - robkop 9y ago
    To cause a short you would need to be able to get inside the motor and nowdays you can buy fully sealed IP68 brushless motors (or even IP69K at a higher cost) for your attack drones. Just as a side note, as long as your elemental carbon nanoparticles are larger than 10PM (most recommend 2.5PM) they are not considered damaging to health by the WHO [1]. [1] http://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/162535/e96541.pdf http://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/162535/e...
  - AnimalMuppet 9y ago
    Of course, the attacking drones are also a health risk...
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
  A single round of lead shot from a shotgun would do the trick.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
    Actually, I just thought of it, and whaddayaknow it's already a thing: Handgun shot shells! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNKioE7gzyE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNKioE7gzyE
fastball 9y ago
Or wear a helmet?
- FridgeSeal 9y ago
  We are truly approaching the sci-fi cyberpunk future where everyone runs around in fancy headgear.
- russdill 9y ago
  Actually it'd be better to encase your head in a large net.
icantdrive55 9y ago
I know I would be wrapping my helmet with chicken wire if those expensive "flies" were around. Yes, the blast would still occur, but a few inches from my skull. I really hate war. I wish the draft would be reinstated, with no exceptions. In school--sorry. Disability needs to really bad. The rich would be first on the list. Why first--they can afford a setback.
naasking 9y ago
> Essentially instead of spraying water out of the sprinklers, spray paint or other liquids that would block the vision of the drones. You can blind or short out the cameras using infrared lasers, much better than paint which requires much closer range.

by robkop 9y ago

IntronExon 9y ago

How about spraying a rapidly hardening foam or stringy polymer? Kill the damned thing.

robkop 9y ago
I would worry about spraying rapidly hardening foam in a room filled with people (not sure if you can breath under it, nevermind how you get people out). String polymer sounds like it could work, my only concern would be if you could design prop guards for the drones such that they filter the air (very coarsely) and don't allow any objects to touch the props.
- IntronExon 9y ago
  In the former case, granted. In the latter, you could also use powdered magnets, some form of self-adhering powder, etc. the basic idea of attacking rotors should be hard to defend against.
  - bsder 9y ago
    Pulsejets don't need rotors. https://hackaday.com/2011/09/05/engine-hacks-a-pulse-jet-uav-by-any-other-name-would-still-be-a-cruise-missile/ https://hackaday.com/2011/09/05/engine-hacks-a-pulse-jet-uav...
    - IntronExon 9y ago
      True, yet they do have intakes, and would be even easier to foul than rotors.
stock_toaster 9y ago
Or.... nets?

state_less 9y ago

I imagine instead of liquids or silly string, we'll witness the first robot wars. A military base might have robotic sentry guns [1] to begin with, as they are already armed with these today to defend against incoming mortars. Later on, I imagine with offensive drone capabilities being developed, it will lead to repurposing the drones in a defensive posture. Perhaps the best answer is to scale with the threat. The defensive drone fleet circle the base. Upon a detection of an incoming fleet, rather than one sentry gun taking on 100 or 1000 drones, a defensive swarm targets the incoming swarm. More of a one-to-one fight or perhaps 1:4 if your drones are more capable fighters. This is all a bit of a bummer. We talk about how we'll get robots to obey the three laws of robotics, but it'd be nice if we could just get humans to follow the first law. "A robot (human) may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm." [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4PXou0aGiE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4PXou0aGiE

robkop 9y ago
I've seen the robotically controlled Lockheed Martin laser that is meant to be able to take on drone swarms which is very similar to what you are talking about. The question to me is how do you defend civilian targets like universities, city halls and malls? You can't build military style defences around these targets and the budget is going to be pretty low. Also you need a exceptionally low response time since the drones can deploy and kill in seconds.
- state_less 9y ago
  That's difficult to answer. Soft targets are, well, soft. If you arm the state capital, they'll move to the university, museum, or large landmark. Protect those, and they'll move to further down the chain. Perhaps one of the best option is to try to prevent social unrest before it happens. Maybe we can repurpose tech to help us communicate better with each other. Beyond that, you might see people purchasing defensive measures once attacks become more of a threat. Whether that's lasers, other drones or something we haven't thought of. There would be a demand for counter measures - you can already see the market forming for such counter measures.

Someone 9y ago

Whatever you want to put on the enemy drone, you’ll want to get it there fast, to prevent the drone from making evasive maneuvres. For a fixed reaction time of the drone, speedier delivery also means you can attack from larger range. I think that arms race will rather quickly lead to the use of very fast moving objects that don’t slow down much due to air resistance (i.e. bullets or missiles)

yters 9y ago

Could some kind of coarse powder foul up the props?

FridgeSeal 9y ago
Potentially, but it would be easy for drone manufacturers to defend against, and you would likely need to make the target area so dense with the particulate that it probably wouldn't stay in the air long and the drone could potentially wait you out. The other direction you could possibly go is a super-fine, but conductive powder (would carbon powder work?) that could get in the motors and potentially cause a short. Particulates that fine would probably be a health risk though.
- robkop 9y ago
  To cause a short you would need to be able to get inside the motor and nowdays you can buy fully sealed IP68 brushless motors (or even IP69K at a higher cost) for your attack drones. Just as a side note, as long as your elemental carbon nanoparticles are larger than 10PM (most recommend 2.5PM) they are not considered damaging to health by the WHO [1]. [1] http://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/162535/e96541.pdf http://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/162535/e...
- AnimalMuppet 9y ago
  Of course, the attacking drones are also a health risk...
TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
A single round of lead shot from a shotgun would do the trick.
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
  Actually, I just thought of it, and whaddayaknow it's already a thing: Handgun shot shells! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNKioE7gzyE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNKioE7gzyE

fastball 9y ago

Or wear a helmet?

FridgeSeal 9y ago
We are truly approaching the sci-fi cyberpunk future where everyone runs around in fancy headgear.
russdill 9y ago
Actually it'd be better to encase your head in a large net.

icantdrive55 9y ago

I know I would be wrapping my helmet with chicken wire if those expensive "flies" were around. Yes, the blast would still occur, but a few inches from my skull. I really hate war. I wish the draft would be reinstated, with no exceptions. In school--sorry. Disability needs to really bad. The rich would be first on the list. Why first--they can afford a setback.

naasking 9y ago

> Essentially instead of spraying water out of the sprinklers, spray paint or other liquids that would block the vision of the drones. You can blind or short out the cameras using infrared lasers, much better than paint which requires much closer range.