8 ms·

European here: when visiting my company HQ I was surprised how casual Americans dress for work. I am not saying devs should wear suit and tie, nothing like that

European here: when visiting my company HQ I was surprised how casual Americans dress for work. I am not saying devs should wear suit and tie, nothing like that, but even my bosses boss* was wearing what looked like a rumpled sweater with worn out jeans. And I don't mean like fashion statement rumpled and worn out, more like the "great depression" crumpled and worn out. Jules and Vincent in their new t-shirts would fit in perfectly. Another thing I noticed was the absolute lack of color and variation in the outdoor clothing, at least in the morning at Manhattan, almost everyone - men and women - was wearing dark blue or black, no exceptions. *EDIT: clarification - I am talking about a VP in a $1b company.

djhworld 9y ago
tbh you'll find a similar culture of casual dress in the UK too, depending on what industry you are in. Corporate IT and finance companies can mostly be "business casual", but venture into the media/creative industries, along with the usual tech companies and startups, it's mostly wear whatever you want.
- EliRivers 9y ago
  So long as you fit in, of course. Many a tech company recruiter has shot a great candidate down for wearing a suit instead of a pair of shorts and a t-shirt with pizza down the front.
- dagw 9y ago
  venture into the media/creative industries, along with the usual tech companies and startups, it's mostly wear whatever you want. Sure, but most of the people there wearing whatever they want are pretty well dressed.
- gaius 9y ago
  it's mostly wear whatever you want. Whatever you want that’s deemed fashionable by your peers. There’s still a dress code, and it’s strictly enforced, it’s just not written down anywhere. How many people use “suit” as a pejorative?
vostok 9y ago
The neon ski jacket colors seem to have some amount of popularity with tech types. I do think that there's some deeper truth to your "great depression" comment. As an older millennial, the last major recession left some scars. Most of the outfits I wear cost well under 0.10% of my annual income and I rarely replace anything unless it literally has holes in it.
- jedmeyers 9y ago
  > The neon ski jacket colors seem to have some amount of popularity with tech types. The only one that was -40% on sale, sorry.
aaronbrethorst 9y ago
Go Banana Slugs.
noelwelsh 9y ago
Where in Europe are you? In the UK people dress in darker tones in winter. I think this is partly because coats are expensive, so most people only have one or two and thus choose colours that are easy to match. I think it is also partly because the landscape in winter is quite dark. In summer you'll see much more colour about. IME the US does tend to be more conservative in terms of fashion than Europe.
- ksec 9y ago
  Personally I dress in darker tone because I have got to known myself as extremely clumsy and always have stain of foods on my clothes. Having Dark clothes means they dont show as compared to a white T-Shirt.
LandR 9y ago
This sounds like the typical dress in most tech companies in the UK too. At least the ones I've worked for. Out of my friends and I, none of us care in the least what clothes we wear.
amelius 9y ago
It's the paradox of fashion. We want to look different, but other people want us to look the same (that's why people in uniform are considered more attractive).
- kentrado 9y ago
  A janitor's uniform is not as attractive as a Sergeant. I reckon sameness is not the attractive quality.
- gaius 9y ago
  I asked a friend once, do you prefer men in uniform because you see men as basically interchangeable? Nah, she replied, because they’re employed and clean. Make of that what you will...
sjg007 9y ago
Everyone wears black in New York and London. That black winter wool coat is a UK thing.
dade_ 9y ago
I was due for a new real winter coat this year, and black and drab are as common as vehical and pedestrian collisions this time of year. Fortunately, Moose Knuckes: https://www.mooseknucklescanada.com/bomber-ballistic/ https://www.mooseknucklescanada.com/bomber-ballistic/
dalbasal 9y ago
That could be a factor. Casual office clothes (closely related to post 90s tech culture) probably halves apparel costs for a lot of people. In a suit and tie company, the average person probably buys 2 suits and a half dozen shirts/ties pa, in addition to their casual clothes.
- toomanybeersies 9y ago
  You should not be buying 2 suits and half a dozen shirts per year. I wear tshirts daily and I don't even buy half a dozen tshirts per year. I have some that are over 5 years old. Spend more than the bare minimum on your clothes, and they will last you a long time. A suit should last you at least half a decade.
  - dalbasal 9y ago
    I never had that kind of job. Estimates based on people I know. Most suit people I know like to have 4-5 at any given time. They also like to have the crisp look of new clothes, more noticeable in formal clothes than hoodies and t shirts. Also suit fashions tend to be fairly specific. My old suit (11 year old 3 button pinstripe that everyone had then) that I haven't worn for years looks ridiculous now, being 2-3 generations old. I'm sure this could be optimized with better quality, better laundry, etc. Everything about clothes could be a fraction of the average costs, if we go based on first principles "what's possible." But generally, people who wear suits to work spend over €1k pa, in my circle. *I'm not sure what the implications are for women's office clothes.
    - MandieD 9y ago
      Women's office clothes are the worst: fragile, ill-fitting off the rack, difficult to tailor unless they were really expensive, and pretty much dry-clean-only (even the tops). I had to dress "business casual" when I taught English part-time for a much lower wage than I get in my current IT job, where putting a scarf or beaded necklace on top of a long-sleeve t-shirt and jeans now makes me more dressed up than my colleagues in their printed t-shirts and athletic shoes. I save at least 100 EUR/mo not having to wear and maintain a business casual wardrobe.
eesmith 9y ago
Not quite 20 years ago I did my first consulting work in Europe. I was concerned as I did not have business clothes. I had only worked for and consulted for companies in the western part of the US. I knew that European dress standards were higher than the US, and even that East Coast standards were higher. When I visited my sister's then-Big-Five company she had me change my socks as I apparently wasn't dressed up enough. So I went out and bought some new clothes. Not business shirt/jacket/slacks/etc. but still a button down shirt instead of T-shirt or polo shirt. Now, this was Sweden, which I visited for a couple of years for this consulting project. Towards the end of the years, I talked to one of my co-workers about me having to buy new clothes. He was quizzical. "But in Sweden we dress down compared to other countries." My reply - "Exactly. And I had to dress a step higher than I usually do." As you can tell, I'm not an East Coast person. I visited NYC once in fall, and was surprised that I was the only one wearing a white T-shirt. The same sister commented that it was after Labor Day, and in that part of the country they don't really wear white once summer ends.
- dagurp 9y ago
  > "But in Sweden we dress down compared to other countries." That's very surprising to me. To me, the Swedish think more about their looks than any other country.
  - iiv 9y ago
    I don't think they are contradicting statements. My impression is that Sweden is more casual, but also more calculated, while continental Europeans are more formal but just throw on a suit and are done with it.
    - drret 9y ago
      This is basically any trendy city though - you could say the same thing about Brooklyn or Paris.
  - eesmith 9y ago
    In a business environment. Compare https://duckduckgo.com/?q=sweden+business+office&t=ffsb&iax=images&ia=images https://duckduckgo.com/?q=sweden+business+office&t=ffsb&iax=... with https://duckduckgo.com/?q=germany+business+office&t=ffsb&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images https://duckduckgo.com/?q=germany+business+office&t=ffsb&iar... . The people in the Germany pictures are more likely to be wearing a dress shirt. The people who wear a business jacket in the Sweden pictures are less likely to be wearing a tie. My experience is also that people (or at least managers) in the UK also tend to wear suits, with ties, more than in Sweden.
gonzo41 9y ago
Does the VP deliver value for the company? If so then it doesn't matter.
toomanybeersies 9y ago
Maybe it's because I work in small companies, but New Zealand and Australia seem to have the world beat for casual dress codes. I frequently turn up to work wearing flip flops and shorts. The way I see it, and the way the company sees it, is that if I'm not interacting with anyone outside the company, it doesn't really matter what I wear. If I'm talking to customers or other companies (very rare), I'll put on chinos, boots, and a shirt.
- ajmurmann 9y ago
  Here in Oregon some people wear sandals and shorts to work in winter. Hiking boots at work are also sorry common.
slowmotiony 9y ago
I wish Germany was like that. I work as a IT consultant in a financial institution and we all have to wear suits here, even though most of the people have never seen a client in their life - they just sit behind their desks and do their daily work on a PC. So they do so - in a suit. I really don't know why Germans do this to themselves.
- adamc 9y ago
  That's how it was when I started in the U.S. But the last 25 years have seen a huge shift in workplace dress codes in the US. Organizations that resisted discovered that it had an effect on retention -- in part because there are pocketbook implications, and perhaps in part because it is just more convenient to be able to use the same wardrobe for everything.
  - eumenides1 9y ago
    I just wanted to underline the phrase "effect on retention". In North America, lots of talent (i.e. new grads) would straight up not pick companies with dress codes. Pay also tended to be not different, and "prestige" of working for X is not really a thing. So everything changed. Also, even in the dressed up companies, they had "dress down days". People liked them. So they had more.
    - strictnein 9y ago
      > "In North America, lots of talent (i.e. new grads) would straight up not pick companies with dress codes" I made that decision almost 15 years ago. Had offers from two companies. They were similar jobs, but with one I had to wear a button up shirt, slacks, and a tie. The other I could wear shorts and flip flops in the summer, jeans and a hoodie in the winter. I chose the latter.
- carlmr 9y ago
  My boss was wearing a t-shirt to my interview. Some of the corporations (without customer facing roles) don't care for non customer facing roles. I'm in Germany, too.
yodsanklai 9y ago
I think it's great. Let people dress as they want and feel comfortable. The last think I need is an employer telling me how to dress.
tjr225 9y ago
The first time I ever left this country(except for say Canada) I went to Athens- and if you've ever been to Athens you know it's kind of a shithole. Awesome- I love Greece- but Athens is fairly gritty. Anyway, I was shocked by how well everyone dressed.
yardie 9y ago
I lived in the fashion capital of the world and most of the cities workers, outside the fashion industry, wore pretty conservative clothing; blacks, blues, browns. This came as a shock to me, an American, who expected bolder fashion choices. Coming from the tropics my fashion sense were bright colors. And over the next decade of living there I was slowly subsumed by those conservative colors.
breakbread 9y ago
Somewhat related, but I went to Europe (I'm American)for the first time in December (Prague, Zurich, Munich, Florence, Rome) and kept noticing how much more well dressed people were on average compared to Americans. Not to suggest everyone was balling out of control in designer wear, just more "put together", so to speak. I considered the fact that I was visiting major cosmopolitan cities, but it was true even in the airports and train stations, where you tend to see a more general slice of the population.
- _Wintermute 9y ago
  I noticed the opposite when I visit the US, adults wearing clothes that I normally consider for children (baseball caps, running shoes) seems pretty common, especially with men.
cat199 9y ago
a) american culture values rebelliousness, not 'being presumptuous' and has lost the 'proving our moral superiority to others' slant that it used to have when americans dressed up, hence huge casualness these days b) nyc and east coast fashion has largely been about dark colors / clean lines and 'chic' since at least the 50s/60s and probably since the 20s or earlier.. things will be hugely different color-wise outside of the northeast (dc up through boston corridor)

djhworld 9y ago

tbh you'll find a similar culture of casual dress in the UK too, depending on what industry you are in. Corporate IT and finance companies can mostly be "business casual", but venture into the media/creative industries, along with the usual tech companies and startups, it's mostly wear whatever you want.

EliRivers 9y ago
So long as you fit in, of course. Many a tech company recruiter has shot a great candidate down for wearing a suit instead of a pair of shorts and a t-shirt with pizza down the front.
dagw 9y ago
venture into the media/creative industries, along with the usual tech companies and startups, it's mostly wear whatever you want. Sure, but most of the people there wearing whatever they want are pretty well dressed.
gaius 9y ago
it's mostly wear whatever you want. Whatever you want that’s deemed fashionable by your peers. There’s still a dress code, and it’s strictly enforced, it’s just not written down anywhere. How many people use “suit” as a pejorative?

vostok 9y ago

The neon ski jacket colors seem to have some amount of popularity with tech types. I do think that there's some deeper truth to your "great depression" comment. As an older millennial, the last major recession left some scars. Most of the outfits I wear cost well under 0.10% of my annual income and I rarely replace anything unless it literally has holes in it.

jedmeyers 9y ago
> The neon ski jacket colors seem to have some amount of popularity with tech types. The only one that was -40% on sale, sorry.

aaronbrethorst 9y ago

Go Banana Slugs.

noelwelsh 9y ago

Where in Europe are you? In the UK people dress in darker tones in winter. I think this is partly because coats are expensive, so most people only have one or two and thus choose colours that are easy to match. I think it is also partly because the landscape in winter is quite dark. In summer you'll see much more colour about. IME the US does tend to be more conservative in terms of fashion than Europe.

ksec 9y ago
Personally I dress in darker tone because I have got to known myself as extremely clumsy and always have stain of foods on my clothes. Having Dark clothes means they dont show as compared to a white T-Shirt.

LandR 9y ago

This sounds like the typical dress in most tech companies in the UK too. At least the ones I've worked for. Out of my friends and I, none of us care in the least what clothes we wear.

amelius 9y ago

It's the paradox of fashion. We want to look different, but other people want us to look the same (that's why people in uniform are considered more attractive).

kentrado 9y ago
A janitor's uniform is not as attractive as a Sergeant. I reckon sameness is not the attractive quality.
gaius 9y ago
I asked a friend once, do you prefer men in uniform because you see men as basically interchangeable? Nah, she replied, because they’re employed and clean. Make of that what you will...

sjg007 9y ago

Everyone wears black in New York and London. That black winter wool coat is a UK thing.

dade_ 9y ago

I was due for a new real winter coat this year, and black and drab are as common as vehical and pedestrian collisions this time of year. Fortunately, Moose Knuckes: https://www.mooseknucklescanada.com/bomber-ballistic/ https://www.mooseknucklescanada.com/bomber-ballistic/

dalbasal 9y ago

That could be a factor. Casual office clothes (closely related to post 90s tech culture) probably halves apparel costs for a lot of people. In a suit and tie company, the average person probably buys 2 suits and a half dozen shirts/ties pa, in addition to their casual clothes.

toomanybeersies 9y ago
You should not be buying 2 suits and half a dozen shirts per year. I wear tshirts daily and I don't even buy half a dozen tshirts per year. I have some that are over 5 years old. Spend more than the bare minimum on your clothes, and they will last you a long time. A suit should last you at least half a decade.
- dalbasal 9y ago
  I never had that kind of job. Estimates based on people I know. Most suit people I know like to have 4-5 at any given time. They also like to have the crisp look of new clothes, more noticeable in formal clothes than hoodies and t shirts. Also suit fashions tend to be fairly specific. My old suit (11 year old 3 button pinstripe that everyone had then) that I haven't worn for years looks ridiculous now, being 2-3 generations old. I'm sure this could be optimized with better quality, better laundry, etc. Everything about clothes could be a fraction of the average costs, if we go based on first principles "what's possible." But generally, people who wear suits to work spend over €1k pa, in my circle. *I'm not sure what the implications are for women's office clothes.
  - MandieD 9y ago
    Women's office clothes are the worst: fragile, ill-fitting off the rack, difficult to tailor unless they were really expensive, and pretty much dry-clean-only (even the tops). I had to dress "business casual" when I taught English part-time for a much lower wage than I get in my current IT job, where putting a scarf or beaded necklace on top of a long-sleeve t-shirt and jeans now makes me more dressed up than my colleagues in their printed t-shirts and athletic shoes. I save at least 100 EUR/mo not having to wear and maintain a business casual wardrobe.

eesmith 9y ago

Not quite 20 years ago I did my first consulting work in Europe. I was concerned as I did not have business clothes. I had only worked for and consulted for companies in the western part of the US. I knew that European dress standards were higher than the US, and even that East Coast standards were higher. When I visited my sister's then-Big-Five company she had me change my socks as I apparently wasn't dressed up enough. So I went out and bought some new clothes. Not business shirt/jacket/slacks/etc. but still a button down shirt instead of T-shirt or polo shirt. Now, this was Sweden, which I visited for a couple of years for this consulting project. Towards the end of the years, I talked to one of my co-workers about me having to buy new clothes. He was quizzical. "But in Sweden we dress down compared to other countries." My reply - "Exactly. And I had to dress a step higher than I usually do." As you can tell, I'm not an East Coast person. I visited NYC once in fall, and was surprised that I was the only one wearing a white T-shirt. The same sister commented that it was after Labor Day, and in that part of the country they don't really wear white once summer ends.

dagurp 9y ago
> "But in Sweden we dress down compared to other countries." That's very surprising to me. To me, the Swedish think more about their looks than any other country.
- iiv 9y ago
  I don't think they are contradicting statements. My impression is that Sweden is more casual, but also more calculated, while continental Europeans are more formal but just throw on a suit and are done with it.
  - drret 9y ago
    This is basically any trendy city though - you could say the same thing about Brooklyn or Paris.
- eesmith 9y ago
  In a business environment. Compare https://duckduckgo.com/?q=sweden+business+office&t=ffsb&iax=images&ia=images https://duckduckgo.com/?q=sweden+business+office&t=ffsb&iax=... with https://duckduckgo.com/?q=germany+business+office&t=ffsb&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images https://duckduckgo.com/?q=germany+business+office&t=ffsb&iar... . The people in the Germany pictures are more likely to be wearing a dress shirt. The people who wear a business jacket in the Sweden pictures are less likely to be wearing a tie. My experience is also that people (or at least managers) in the UK also tend to wear suits, with ties, more than in Sweden.

gonzo41 9y ago

Does the VP deliver value for the company? If so then it doesn't matter.

toomanybeersies 9y ago

Maybe it's because I work in small companies, but New Zealand and Australia seem to have the world beat for casual dress codes. I frequently turn up to work wearing flip flops and shorts. The way I see it, and the way the company sees it, is that if I'm not interacting with anyone outside the company, it doesn't really matter what I wear. If I'm talking to customers or other companies (very rare), I'll put on chinos, boots, and a shirt.

ajmurmann 9y ago
Here in Oregon some people wear sandals and shorts to work in winter. Hiking boots at work are also sorry common.

slowmotiony 9y ago

I wish Germany was like that. I work as a IT consultant in a financial institution and we all have to wear suits here, even though most of the people have never seen a client in their life - they just sit behind their desks and do their daily work on a PC. So they do so - in a suit. I really don't know why Germans do this to themselves.

adamc 9y ago
That's how it was when I started in the U.S. But the last 25 years have seen a huge shift in workplace dress codes in the US. Organizations that resisted discovered that it had an effect on retention -- in part because there are pocketbook implications, and perhaps in part because it is just more convenient to be able to use the same wardrobe for everything.
- eumenides1 9y ago
  I just wanted to underline the phrase "effect on retention". In North America, lots of talent (i.e. new grads) would straight up not pick companies with dress codes. Pay also tended to be not different, and "prestige" of working for X is not really a thing. So everything changed. Also, even in the dressed up companies, they had "dress down days". People liked them. So they had more.
  - strictnein 9y ago
    > "In North America, lots of talent (i.e. new grads) would straight up not pick companies with dress codes" I made that decision almost 15 years ago. Had offers from two companies. They were similar jobs, but with one I had to wear a button up shirt, slacks, and a tie. The other I could wear shorts and flip flops in the summer, jeans and a hoodie in the winter. I chose the latter.
carlmr 9y ago
My boss was wearing a t-shirt to my interview. Some of the corporations (without customer facing roles) don't care for non customer facing roles. I'm in Germany, too.

yodsanklai 9y ago

I think it's great. Let people dress as they want and feel comfortable. The last think I need is an employer telling me how to dress.

tjr225 9y ago

The first time I ever left this country(except for say Canada) I went to Athens- and if you've ever been to Athens you know it's kind of a shithole. Awesome- I love Greece- but Athens is fairly gritty. Anyway, I was shocked by how well everyone dressed.

yardie 9y ago

I lived in the fashion capital of the world and most of the cities workers, outside the fashion industry, wore pretty conservative clothing; blacks, blues, browns. This came as a shock to me, an American, who expected bolder fashion choices. Coming from the tropics my fashion sense were bright colors. And over the next decade of living there I was slowly subsumed by those conservative colors.

breakbread 9y ago

Somewhat related, but I went to Europe (I'm American)for the first time in December (Prague, Zurich, Munich, Florence, Rome) and kept noticing how much more well dressed people were on average compared to Americans. Not to suggest everyone was balling out of control in designer wear, just more "put together", so to speak. I considered the fact that I was visiting major cosmopolitan cities, but it was true even in the airports and train stations, where you tend to see a more general slice of the population.

_Wintermute 9y ago
I noticed the opposite when I visit the US, adults wearing clothes that I normally consider for children (baseball caps, running shoes) seems pretty common, especially with men.

cat199 9y ago

a) american culture values rebelliousness, not 'being presumptuous' and has lost the 'proving our moral superiority to others' slant that it used to have when americans dressed up, hence huge casualness these days b) nyc and east coast fashion has largely been about dark colors / clean lines and 'chic' since at least the 50s/60s and probably since the 20s or earlier.. things will be hugely different color-wise outside of the northeast (dc up through boston corridor)