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Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no l

by korch 16y ago

Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers. —Socrates These kind of education articles are fucking stupid and only help fan the flames on all sides of deeply flawed ideologies. Beating this dead horse is so common that I've learned to tune these from out when NYT, NPR, etc run these formulaic education scare pieces. The flaw is that you just can't compare apples to oranges and expect any kind of meaningful conclusion. In this case, it's cross correlating some super high dimensional manifold from 1964(or whenever) comprised of easily hundreds of thousands of variables, against a similar large manifold(2010). There are just too many totally different variables between then and now for it to be a fair comparison at all. Sure, each side sees what it wants in whatever tiny slice of the data they choose to use. Blame the Mexicans, no blame the Rich, no blame the Liberals, no blame Reagan, ad infinitum. And this guy, a professional in higher education, wants to step out on a far limb to make some grandiose claim about the status of California education. I am more fearful of him ruining his own students by teaching them to mimic his own flawed reasoning than I am of any of his exaggerated, inaccurate conclusions. You know what? More likely than not, the world will keep going the way it has been, people, kids, and education will keep improving, albeit incrementally, and there is not going to be some apocalyptic doomsday in the future of public education in California, or anywhere. In summary, he's basically following the same pattern so many old people follow: somewhere along the way they lose touch with reality, with the youth, get stuck in their ways, and believe the whole world has gone to hell in a handbasket, and all because of some imagined flaw in the entire youth population. Old people forget what it was like to be young, and lose their ability to rapidly adapt and learn as children do. And without fail, each generation grows up to believe they were somehow better than later generations. Bollocks! I used to be with it, but then they changed what "it" was. Now, what I'm with isn't it, and what's "it" seems weird and scary to me. —Abe Simpson

jurjenh 16y ago
> ruining his own students by teaching them to mimic his own flawed reasoning ... In the letter he does mention "Every year, fewer and fewer of you read newspapers, speak a foreign language, understand the basics of how government and business actually work, or have the energy to push back intellectually against me or against each other" so maybe it is a little tongue-in-cheek and maybe he is looking for a valid intellectual push back... Nonetheless, your comment regarding fruit is most apt, as in my eyes, the very nature / focus of academy seems to have changed - from one of developing thinking skills to one of developing people skilled in a certain type of thinking. This (in my opinion) is the thing that let me down most while I was studying - instead of learning how to approach solving problems, the focus seemed more on learning how to solve certain problems, which I believe will make certain degrees (by year graduated) more-or-less obsolete as the problem domain has shifted on, which may in turn lead to a decline in technological advancement as we'll run into new problems without a clear understanding or process of approaching these situations. Of course, my view is but one data point in many many thousands, and I studied at Canterbury University in New Zealand.
hammmatt 16y ago
I agree with you on many of your points. I would have to say I agree with you that the world will keep on improving, but to say that there aren't at least a FEW flaws with California's financial system and educational is not very conducive with the evidence. I can't find a reasonable human being that can agree with the pension system for state employees (I am actually unsure if it applies to teachers), which has to be the biggest money whole I could ever conceive. Also, I am not sure of the statics, but it is no secret that LA public schools are some of the worst in the country. In the intercity schools anyway. However, I do agree with you that the author doesn't prove his point of declining schools, nor does he prove that increased funding will make them better. He offers this poor anecdote that is obviously politically self-edited. It's funny how subjects like bad parenting or horrifying home lives never come into this conversation. Which seems to have a strong connection a child's educational success. I don't believe the author intended to go beyond anything other than his experience with his students, which by admissions filtering are hypothetically better than the over student. Btw, loved the Abe Simpson quote. However, this situation triggers another famous entertainment quote in my mind. Reporter: "Mr. Norris, how does it feel to have your career not be taken seriously by a younger internet driven generation of 'joke-sters?'" Chuck Norris: Boys will be boys.
- parfe 16y ago
  >I can't find a reasonable human being that can agree with the pension system for state employees (I am actually unsure if it applies to teachers), which has to be the biggest money whole I could ever conceive. The issue with pensions is that everyone used to do it. Private and public sector both. It's just easier for the private sector to declare bankruptcy and throw away their obligations. Pensions themselves are a giant scam to steal money from future generations. It isn't a failure of government or the public sector. It's a failure of one generation to consider their children or grand children. The only people who ever thought pensions are a good idea are old or already retired. You're unlikely to meet a person like that. >It's funny how subjects like bad parenting or horrifying home lives never come into this conversation. The Leave It to Beaver household never existed. What makes you think home life has degenerated in the last 50 years?
  - 16y ago
yters 16y ago
And Athens fell because they used up their money.
commandar 16y ago
>Old people forget what it was like to be young, and lose their ability to rapidly adapt and learn as children do. And without fail, each generation grows up to believe they were somehow better than later generations. I don't think this is an accurate description of the article at all. The author is specifically arguing that his generation has violated the social contract that they used to their gain, leaving the current, younger generation holding the bag. He's not saying "goddamn kids these days"; he's encouraging the upcoming generation to fix what their parents (his generation) have screwed up so that the generation after them doesn't end up shackled in the same way or worse. In fact, he's encouraging them to engage their parents ("they still vote") to help them in fixing things.
- epoxyhockey 16y ago
  The professor doesn't adequately quantify what has gone wrong due to a generation's alleged lack of paying it forward. Generalizations like "failing infrastructure" and "less spending on schools" do not exactly get the fire started in my belly - because I don't see anything glaringly wrong with those items. And, maybe this old man's view of a failing infrastructure is a result of something petty like a crack in the sidewalk directly outside of his house. And, maybe his generation has spent less time worrying about cracks in sidewalks and potholes in roads because they were investing in things that are now more foreign to an older person. Like biotech, wireless tech, green tech, etc. (I'm sure there are better examples) BTW - I just used the term "old man" to add impact to my statement. I love my older generation and the insights they bring.
pbhjpbhj 16y ago
OT: When quoting the Simpsons TV show why don't people credit the writers instead of crediting the fictional character. If someone quote "If music be the food of love, play on ..." then they credit Shakespeare (rightly or wrongly) not the fictional Duke Orsino of Illyria. Sorry, but it bugs me.

by korch 16y ago

jurjenh 16y ago

> ruining his own students by teaching them to mimic his own flawed reasoning ... In the letter he does mention "Every year, fewer and fewer of you read newspapers, speak a foreign language, understand the basics of how government and business actually work, or have the energy to push back intellectually against me or against each other" so maybe it is a little tongue-in-cheek and maybe he is looking for a valid intellectual push back... Nonetheless, your comment regarding fruit is most apt, as in my eyes, the very nature / focus of academy seems to have changed - from one of developing thinking skills to one of developing people skilled in a certain type of thinking. This (in my opinion) is the thing that let me down most while I was studying - instead of learning how to approach solving problems, the focus seemed more on learning how to solve certain problems, which I believe will make certain degrees (by year graduated) more-or-less obsolete as the problem domain has shifted on, which may in turn lead to a decline in technological advancement as we'll run into new problems without a clear understanding or process of approaching these situations. Of course, my view is but one data point in many many thousands, and I studied at Canterbury University in New Zealand.

hammmatt 16y ago

I agree with you on many of your points. I would have to say I agree with you that the world will keep on improving, but to say that there aren't at least a FEW flaws with California's financial system and educational is not very conducive with the evidence. I can't find a reasonable human being that can agree with the pension system for state employees (I am actually unsure if it applies to teachers), which has to be the biggest money whole I could ever conceive. Also, I am not sure of the statics, but it is no secret that LA public schools are some of the worst in the country. In the intercity schools anyway. However, I do agree with you that the author doesn't prove his point of declining schools, nor does he prove that increased funding will make them better. He offers this poor anecdote that is obviously politically self-edited. It's funny how subjects like bad parenting or horrifying home lives never come into this conversation. Which seems to have a strong connection a child's educational success. I don't believe the author intended to go beyond anything other than his experience with his students, which by admissions filtering are hypothetically better than the over student. Btw, loved the Abe Simpson quote. However, this situation triggers another famous entertainment quote in my mind. Reporter: "Mr. Norris, how does it feel to have your career not be taken seriously by a younger internet driven generation of 'joke-sters?'" Chuck Norris: Boys will be boys.

parfe 16y ago
>I can't find a reasonable human being that can agree with the pension system for state employees (I am actually unsure if it applies to teachers), which has to be the biggest money whole I could ever conceive. The issue with pensions is that everyone used to do it. Private and public sector both. It's just easier for the private sector to declare bankruptcy and throw away their obligations. Pensions themselves are a giant scam to steal money from future generations. It isn't a failure of government or the public sector. It's a failure of one generation to consider their children or grand children. The only people who ever thought pensions are a good idea are old or already retired. You're unlikely to meet a person like that. >It's funny how subjects like bad parenting or horrifying home lives never come into this conversation. The Leave It to Beaver household never existed. What makes you think home life has degenerated in the last 50 years?
- 16y ago

yters 16y ago

And Athens fell because they used up their money.

commandar 16y ago

>Old people forget what it was like to be young, and lose their ability to rapidly adapt and learn as children do. And without fail, each generation grows up to believe they were somehow better than later generations. I don't think this is an accurate description of the article at all. The author is specifically arguing that his generation has violated the social contract that they used to their gain, leaving the current, younger generation holding the bag. He's not saying "goddamn kids these days"; he's encouraging the upcoming generation to fix what their parents (his generation) have screwed up so that the generation after them doesn't end up shackled in the same way or worse. In fact, he's encouraging them to engage their parents ("they still vote") to help them in fixing things.

epoxyhockey 16y ago
The professor doesn't adequately quantify what has gone wrong due to a generation's alleged lack of paying it forward. Generalizations like "failing infrastructure" and "less spending on schools" do not exactly get the fire started in my belly - because I don't see anything glaringly wrong with those items. And, maybe this old man's view of a failing infrastructure is a result of something petty like a crack in the sidewalk directly outside of his house. And, maybe his generation has spent less time worrying about cracks in sidewalks and potholes in roads because they were investing in things that are now more foreign to an older person. Like biotech, wireless tech, green tech, etc. (I'm sure there are better examples) BTW - I just used the term "old man" to add impact to my statement. I love my older generation and the insights they bring.

pbhjpbhj 16y ago

OT: When quoting the Simpsons TV show why don't people credit the writers instead of crediting the fictional character. If someone quote "If music be the food of love, play on ..." then they credit Shakespeare (rightly or wrongly) not the fictional Duke Orsino of Illyria. Sorry, but it bugs me.