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This is so true. And for your last point there is veganic farming that excludes animal products in the process. It’s awesome and growing. People love to think

This is so true. And for your last point there is veganic farming that excludes animal products in the process. It’s awesome and growing. People love to think of vegans as naive children but most people don’t think anything about their food and the vegans I know do actual research on what happens and how to live better.

pbhjpbhj 9y ago
Do they exclude dung/urine too? It seems they must if honey is an excluded product? Growing under those restrictions must be very difficult.
- marricks 9y ago
  Yep, that’s the point, avoid all byproducts. I’ve seen more products labeled as veganic so it seems doable and they weren’t too much more expensive than organic bread or what have you.
- tom_mellior 9y ago
  I don't think it makes sense to discuss such details as if all vegans thought alike. There are many differences in thought among them, as in any group of humans. But I would like to point out that this argument by analogy is flawed: Honey is food for the bees themselves. Taking it away harms the bees by making them work harder for their survival. (Unless you can prove that you only take a surplus that they would never touch.) In contrast, excrement from animals like cows or horses is not used by the animal itself. As someone else pointed out in this thread, if necessary, many vegans could probably get behind a world were animals were raised for the use of their excrement but nothing else.
  - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
    Cow shit fertilises the pasture and feeds other creatures/life in the ecosystem ultimately taking its part in creating an environment for the animal. Moreover the seeds the animal disperses will be lost if you abscond with their excretions. There's a very real way in which a cow, say, feedsback in to the environment. It's less direct than stealing bee vomit, but still a part of the feeding cycle. The reason I compared them though was primarily that collecting animal faeces of large mammals would probably be an overall negative (cf. bat guano) unless you artificially confined the beasts? It seemed to me that the necessary interference in the animals natural cycles would be akin to good beekeeping (where an apiarist can prevent hive death, increase food availability, etc.).

pbhjpbhj 9y ago

Do they exclude dung/urine too? It seems they must if honey is an excluded product? Growing under those restrictions must be very difficult.

marricks 9y ago
Yep, that’s the point, avoid all byproducts. I’ve seen more products labeled as veganic so it seems doable and they weren’t too much more expensive than organic bread or what have you.
tom_mellior 9y ago
I don't think it makes sense to discuss such details as if all vegans thought alike. There are many differences in thought among them, as in any group of humans. But I would like to point out that this argument by analogy is flawed: Honey is food for the bees themselves. Taking it away harms the bees by making them work harder for their survival. (Unless you can prove that you only take a surplus that they would never touch.) In contrast, excrement from animals like cows or horses is not used by the animal itself. As someone else pointed out in this thread, if necessary, many vegans could probably get behind a world were animals were raised for the use of their excrement but nothing else.
- pbhjpbhj 9y ago
  Cow shit fertilises the pasture and feeds other creatures/life in the ecosystem ultimately taking its part in creating an environment for the animal. Moreover the seeds the animal disperses will be lost if you abscond with their excretions. There's a very real way in which a cow, say, feedsback in to the environment. It's less direct than stealing bee vomit, but still a part of the feeding cycle. The reason I compared them though was primarily that collecting animal faeces of large mammals would probably be an overall negative (cf. bat guano) unless you artificially confined the beasts? It seemed to me that the necessary interference in the animals natural cycles would be akin to good beekeeping (where an apiarist can prevent hive death, increase food availability, etc.).