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> Or do vegans often ponder the "ingredients" in everyday objects? Yes. > Is vaccinating your kids vegan? Are all vegans anti-vax? There is certainly a lunat

> Or do vegans often ponder the "ingredients" in everyday objects? Yes. > Is vaccinating your kids vegan? Are all vegans anti-vax? There is certainly a lunatic anti-vax fringe. But no, not all vegans are like that, even though many vaccines contain animal derived products. I find this interesting: http://rvgn.org/2015/05/09/anti-vax-and-veganism/ http://rvgn.org/2015/05/09/anti-vax-and-veganism/ > Are soaps, cosmetics, detergents, plastics, tires, and lubricants made with stearic acid and other beef products vegan? No. > Vegans for ethical reasons seem to only not want to consume a single part of the animal, but consume the rest, which is a pretty large portion, by weight. No vegan I ever interacted with fit this description. > And if you're eating organic food, isn't it more likely that your spinach was grown in a bath of bone meal, blood meal, fish meal? Possible, but if everyone stopped eating those animals, the prices of these products would presumably make their use uneconomical, so promoting veganism would change this. Though I admit I haven't heard vegans I know ever discuss this particular point. They are probably not aware of how the plants they eat are fertilized.

simonsarris 9y ago
> if everyone stopped eating those animals, the prices of these products would presumably make their use uneconomical If everyone stopped eating animals, the prices of a lot of plant agriculture might become uneconomical. My mistake for bringing in the organic/not distinction, since almost all non-organic fertilizers use some amount of animal products too. It's just that organic ones almost certainly use animal products. (Very) broadly speaking, you can grow grains and legumes at scale without soil amendments from animals, though IDK about cost. You cannot grow fruits and vegetables at scale without soil amendments from animal products. Like Diogenes living on handouts in Athens and decrying the materialist way of life, you can enjoy an economical vegan diet only if the world around you is not.
- tom_mellior 9y ago
  > You cannot grow fruits and vegetables at scale without soil amendments from animal products. I'm skeptical about the truth of this statement, but open minded. Could you provide a source?
- jly 9y ago
  There are plenty of plant-based fertilizers, as well. If humans primarily farmed animals for manure-based fertilizer, many vegans would be pretty thrilled, whether it meets the textbook definition of vegan, or not.
huhtenberg 9y ago
>> tires... vegan? > No. Tires are rather hard to eat in general, so I guess that alone makes them unsuitable for a vegan diet. But I suspect that's not the real reason. What is the actual rationale then?
- dashundchen 9y ago
  "Veganism is a way of living that seeks to exclude, as far as possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing and any other purpose." - The Vegan Society Veganism for most is more than just food, it's includes seeking to reduce animal exploitation and suffering in any aspect of your life. People who eat a vegan diet but ignore animal product consumption in leather, wool, cosmetics are not considered vegan by most vegans, it's usually referred to as "plant-based diet".
  - masklinn 9y ago
    > People who eat a vegan diet but ignore animal product consumption in leather, wool, cosmetics are not considered vegan by most vegans, it's usually referred to as "plant-based diet". Variations of vegetarian? Vegetarianism seems to be solely about diet, whereas veganism is abstaining from animal products in general.
    - beobab 9y ago
      Honest question: What are a vegan's views on pets and work animals, such as a horse who pulls a cart to the vegetable market.
      - delecti 9y ago
        From what I've seen, pets are not ideal, but also a low priority. Work animals are usually limited to less industrialized situations, so they're not usually a concern for the same people. I've never known anybody who used a work animal, with the exception of riding horses if you count that.
      - 9y ago
marricks 9y ago
This is so true. And for your last point there is veganic farming that excludes animal products in the process. It’s awesome and growing. People love to think of vegans as naive children but most people don’t think anything about their food and the vegans I know do actual research on what happens and how to live better.
- pbhjpbhj 9y ago
  Do they exclude dung/urine too? It seems they must if honey is an excluded product? Growing under those restrictions must be very difficult.
  - marricks 9y ago
    Yep, that’s the point, avoid all byproducts. I’ve seen more products labeled as veganic so it seems doable and they weren’t too much more expensive than organic bread or what have you.
  - tom_mellior 9y ago
    I don't think it makes sense to discuss such details as if all vegans thought alike. There are many differences in thought among them, as in any group of humans. But I would like to point out that this argument by analogy is flawed: Honey is food for the bees themselves. Taking it away harms the bees by making them work harder for their survival. (Unless you can prove that you only take a surplus that they would never touch.) In contrast, excrement from animals like cows or horses is not used by the animal itself. As someone else pointed out in this thread, if necessary, many vegans could probably get behind a world were animals were raised for the use of their excrement but nothing else.
    - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
      Cow shit fertilises the pasture and feeds other creatures/life in the ecosystem ultimately taking its part in creating an environment for the animal. Moreover the seeds the animal disperses will be lost if you abscond with their excretions. There's a very real way in which a cow, say, feedsback in to the environment. It's less direct than stealing bee vomit, but still a part of the feeding cycle. The reason I compared them though was primarily that collecting animal faeces of large mammals would probably be an overall negative (cf. bat guano) unless you artificially confined the beasts? It seemed to me that the necessary interference in the animals natural cycles would be akin to good beekeeping (where an apiarist can prevent hive death, increase food availability, etc.).

simonsarris 9y ago

> if everyone stopped eating those animals, the prices of these products would presumably make their use uneconomical If everyone stopped eating animals, the prices of a lot of plant agriculture might become uneconomical. My mistake for bringing in the organic/not distinction, since almost all non-organic fertilizers use some amount of animal products too. It's just that organic ones almost certainly use animal products. (Very) broadly speaking, you can grow grains and legumes at scale without soil amendments from animals, though IDK about cost. You cannot grow fruits and vegetables at scale without soil amendments from animal products. Like Diogenes living on handouts in Athens and decrying the materialist way of life, you can enjoy an economical vegan diet only if the world around you is not.

tom_mellior 9y ago
> You cannot grow fruits and vegetables at scale without soil amendments from animal products. I'm skeptical about the truth of this statement, but open minded. Could you provide a source?
jly 9y ago
There are plenty of plant-based fertilizers, as well. If humans primarily farmed animals for manure-based fertilizer, many vegans would be pretty thrilled, whether it meets the textbook definition of vegan, or not.

huhtenberg 9y ago

>> tires... vegan? > No. Tires are rather hard to eat in general, so I guess that alone makes them unsuitable for a vegan diet. But I suspect that's not the real reason. What is the actual rationale then?

dashundchen 9y ago
"Veganism is a way of living that seeks to exclude, as far as possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing and any other purpose." - The Vegan Society Veganism for most is more than just food, it's includes seeking to reduce animal exploitation and suffering in any aspect of your life. People who eat a vegan diet but ignore animal product consumption in leather, wool, cosmetics are not considered vegan by most vegans, it's usually referred to as "plant-based diet".
- masklinn 9y ago
  > People who eat a vegan diet but ignore animal product consumption in leather, wool, cosmetics are not considered vegan by most vegans, it's usually referred to as "plant-based diet". Variations of vegetarian? Vegetarianism seems to be solely about diet, whereas veganism is abstaining from animal products in general.
  - beobab 9y ago
    Honest question: What are a vegan's views on pets and work animals, such as a horse who pulls a cart to the vegetable market.
    - delecti 9y ago
      From what I've seen, pets are not ideal, but also a low priority. Work animals are usually limited to less industrialized situations, so they're not usually a concern for the same people. I've never known anybody who used a work animal, with the exception of riding horses if you count that.
    - 9y ago

marricks 9y ago

This is so true. And for your last point there is veganic farming that excludes animal products in the process. It’s awesome and growing. People love to think of vegans as naive children but most people don’t think anything about their food and the vegans I know do actual research on what happens and how to live better.

pbhjpbhj 9y ago
Do they exclude dung/urine too? It seems they must if honey is an excluded product? Growing under those restrictions must be very difficult.
- marricks 9y ago
  Yep, that’s the point, avoid all byproducts. I’ve seen more products labeled as veganic so it seems doable and they weren’t too much more expensive than organic bread or what have you.
- tom_mellior 9y ago
  I don't think it makes sense to discuss such details as if all vegans thought alike. There are many differences in thought among them, as in any group of humans. But I would like to point out that this argument by analogy is flawed: Honey is food for the bees themselves. Taking it away harms the bees by making them work harder for their survival. (Unless you can prove that you only take a surplus that they would never touch.) In contrast, excrement from animals like cows or horses is not used by the animal itself. As someone else pointed out in this thread, if necessary, many vegans could probably get behind a world were animals were raised for the use of their excrement but nothing else.
  - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
    Cow shit fertilises the pasture and feeds other creatures/life in the ecosystem ultimately taking its part in creating an environment for the animal. Moreover the seeds the animal disperses will be lost if you abscond with their excretions. There's a very real way in which a cow, say, feedsback in to the environment. It's less direct than stealing bee vomit, but still a part of the feeding cycle. The reason I compared them though was primarily that collecting animal faeces of large mammals would probably be an overall negative (cf. bat guano) unless you artificially confined the beasts? It seemed to me that the necessary interference in the animals natural cycles would be akin to good beekeeping (where an apiarist can prevent hive death, increase food availability, etc.).