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There has to be a word for this kind of... comprehensive incompleteness. Being so particular about a vegan diet (for ethical reasons) strikes me as very odd whe

There has to be a word for this kind of... comprehensive incompleteness. Being so particular about a vegan diet (for ethical reasons) strikes me as very odd when animal products are in use every day around us by vegans. Do people know we use every part of the proverbial buffalo? Or do vegans often ponder the "ingredients" in everyday objects? Is vaccinating your kids vegan? Are all vegans anti-vax? Are soaps, cosmetics, detergents, plastics, tires, and lubricants made with stearic acid and other beef products vegan? Vegans for ethical reasons seem to only not want to consume a single part of the animal, but consume the rest, which is a pretty large portion, by weight. And if you're eating organic food, isn't it more likely that your spinach was grown in a bath of bone meal, blood meal, fish meal? Do vegans know how we produce organic fertilizers?

mikk14 9y ago
Note: I am not vegan, nor I necessarily endorse the thinking behind this answer, but I'm trying to do a service to the discussion by reporting what I heard from a conversation with a vegan friend. I think the argument here is that most of most animals' worth come from eating them or their products. If everybody were to stop eating animals then it would not be economically feasible any more to use the "waste" parts of the animal for all the other products. We would find other more economically feasible ways to produce the same products (via plant matter or synthetics). Thus, by refusing to eat meat and animal products, all the other uses of animal suffering would cease to exist.
- DonHopkins 9y ago
  >"If everybody were to stop eating animals" So is part of being vegan trying to make everyone else stop eating animals? Or is it enough to just control what you eat yourself? Because if your point is to make all the other uses of animal suffering cease to exist, then it sounds like a hopeless cause unless you try to convert everyone else in the world into vegans.
  - ben_w 9y ago
    If your goal is to climb Everest, each step gets you closer to your target; it is not a hopeless endeavour just because you cannot reach the summit in a single leap.
    - DonHopkins 9y ago
      Many people have successfully climbed Everest in the past. Are you saying that people have already converted everyone else in the world into vegans in the past, or that you're hopeful that it's as possible to eventually do that, as it is possible for yet another person to climb Everest?
      - ben_w 9y ago
        Neither, but the latter is closer. I’m saying that ending animal suffering takes many steps, and that not even trying because perfection doesn’t seem possible to you is akin to not even trying to go to the gym because you personally (I am making an assumption here) have not climbed Everest.
        odammit 9y ago
        But maybe those people just want you to shut up? I have plenty of vegan friends and a small set of them beat the drum constantly. I’m not going to be vegan and if there was a meat prohibition, I’d be an outlaw. The thing that particularly drives me nuts about this kind of vegan is that they will bring cookies to a party and after everyone’s has eaten them point out that they were vegan and that everyone enjoyed them. A. Carrots are vegan. I can eat stuff without meat, too. B. No shit, Carl. You made them we assumed that. C. the cookies sucked and people weren’t going to be rude at a dinner party where someone already went out of their way to make you a vegan dish. D. They dipped them in milk because they were dry AF E. If I went to a vegan party and made vegan cookies and fed them to everyone and told them in the end there were pig eyeballs in them everyone would get pissed. I don’t do that because I’m not a self righteous asshole. </rant> Also, Carl sucks.
balthasar 9y ago
They should just give up and discard their emotions.
collyw 9y ago
Nearly all vegetarians I know wear leather shoes.....
- dashundchen 9y ago
  A vegan would not wear leather shoes. If we're going to go off anecdotes, most vegetarians I know wouldn't either. However many people I know transitioning to vegan/vegetarian lifestyles will continue to use leather products from before the switch, at least until they wear out, to avoid being wasteful.
  - louhike 9y ago
    Exactly, I'm vegan but I have a leather jacket I bought before transitioning. I will use it until it wears out. Some vegans would sell/throw out all their non-vegans clothes afraid of what others might think, but a lot of vegans do not care much.
- mikestew 9y ago
  I’m a vegetarian and I have all kinds of leather items. Shoes, motorcycle jacket, probably a belt or two. Because leather, when taken care of, lasts a long time, and I haven’t always been a vegetarian. But it would be incredibly stupid to get rid of them just for the sake of appearance. And not every vegetarian is such based on morality. I wouldn’t be surprised if the “...but i eat fish/chicken” vegetarians wear leather.
LesZedCB 9y ago
For most, it's less about the hard and fast rule set as much as a constant minimization of our consumption of animal products.
travisjungroth 9y ago
I'll speak for myself. It's not about purity. It's about reducing harm. I know I can't be a "pure" vegan without either living in a bubble, or some remote area with really good farming. Do people know we use every part of the proverbial buffalo? Yes. Or do vegans often ponder the "ingredients" in everyday objects? And yes. I'm aware the paint on the walls might not be vegan. I just have to live with that. Is vaccinating your kids vegan? I don't know, and I don't care. I'm okay with using animal products for medicine. Maybe that makes me not vegan. Are all vegans anti-vax? No. Are soaps, cosmetics, detergents, plastics, tires, and lubricants made with stearic acid and other beef products vegan? Strictly, no. And if you're eating organic food, isn't it more likely that your spinach was grown in a bath of bone meal, blood meal, fish meal? Maybe. But I'm sure this is better than actually eating the animals, in a calculated sense. I make no effort to eat organic, anyway. Do vegans know how we produce organic fertilizers? Some do, some don't.
sc4les 9y ago
The definition reads: "Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose."
- LaGrange 9y ago
  And all the "gotcha" folk stumble on the "as far as is possible and practicable" part.
  - sc4les 9y ago
    Oh yes
guildenstern 9y ago
Veganism is a commitment beyond diet. Every vegan I know does not intentionally make use of anything that contains animal products in any form. There is a huge industry for cruelty free cosmetics, for example. You’re mischaracterising veganism. A person who follows a diet of no animal products but uses animal products elsewhere in their life would usually say they follow a “plant based diet” and not claim to be vegan.
tom_mellior 9y ago
> Or do vegans often ponder the "ingredients" in everyday objects? Yes. > Is vaccinating your kids vegan? Are all vegans anti-vax? There is certainly a lunatic anti-vax fringe. But no, not all vegans are like that, even though many vaccines contain animal derived products. I find this interesting: http://rvgn.org/2015/05/09/anti-vax-and-veganism/ http://rvgn.org/2015/05/09/anti-vax-and-veganism/ > Are soaps, cosmetics, detergents, plastics, tires, and lubricants made with stearic acid and other beef products vegan? No. > Vegans for ethical reasons seem to only not want to consume a single part of the animal, but consume the rest, which is a pretty large portion, by weight. No vegan I ever interacted with fit this description. > And if you're eating organic food, isn't it more likely that your spinach was grown in a bath of bone meal, blood meal, fish meal? Possible, but if everyone stopped eating those animals, the prices of these products would presumably make their use uneconomical, so promoting veganism would change this. Though I admit I haven't heard vegans I know ever discuss this particular point. They are probably not aware of how the plants they eat are fertilized.
- simonsarris 9y ago
  > if everyone stopped eating those animals, the prices of these products would presumably make their use uneconomical If everyone stopped eating animals, the prices of a lot of plant agriculture might become uneconomical. My mistake for bringing in the organic/not distinction, since almost all non-organic fertilizers use some amount of animal products too. It's just that organic ones almost certainly use animal products. (Very) broadly speaking, you can grow grains and legumes at scale without soil amendments from animals, though IDK about cost. You cannot grow fruits and vegetables at scale without soil amendments from animal products. Like Diogenes living on handouts in Athens and decrying the materialist way of life, you can enjoy an economical vegan diet only if the world around you is not.
  - tom_mellior 9y ago
    > You cannot grow fruits and vegetables at scale without soil amendments from animal products. I'm skeptical about the truth of this statement, but open minded. Could you provide a source?
lucideer 9y ago
> Or do vegans often ponder the "ingredients" in everyday objects? I have met many vegans that adhere to various levels of "strictness", (2nd-hand leather goods, isinglass filtered beers, etc. etc.), but even for the very most relaxed, non-adherent vegans, at a very minimum being acutely aware of the non-vegan nature of many/most non-edible products is definitely a consistent theme. This seems like basic 101 of pondering becoming a vegan. Of course they consider the ingredients of soaps, plastics, etc. > Vegans for ethical reasons seem to only not want to consume a single part of the animal, but consume the rest, which is a pretty large portion, by weight. Everything is anecdotal, so perhaps vegans you've met do think like this, but in my experience the opposite has been true. Some have been lovely people, some have been a little closer to the negative stereotype of vegans that's propagated on the internet, but they have been at least universally well-versed in the ingredients of their own consumption. > Do vegans know how we produce organic fertilizers? Yes.
gambiting 9y ago
I've had someone who insisted they wanted to get out of my car because I have leather seats(and I was giving him a lift as a favour). To me, that's 1000% insane, but hey, his choice.
- UweSchmidt 9y ago
  It's not "1000% insane", and I am sure you could easily see their point of view if you wanted to, even if you disagree. Imagine something you don't want to be part of. Imagine yourself making a kind of a stand in that situation. Today I ate at that nasty sausage place - they had a collection box, asking for donations for animals in need, right next to the grill. Insanity's all over the place...
  - yesenadam 9y ago
    "To me it's X" "It's not X" - do you not see that here, you seem (ironically) the one deficient in seeing the other guy's point of view? At least, I read him as saying "It seems X to me", which is not something you can disagree/argue with—I think he began "To me.." to avoid that kind of criticism, by stating an indisputable fact. That said, I mostly agree with both of you. But my casting vote says - yup, 1000% insane hehe. That would seem pretty crazy to me if I witnessed that. (Disclosure: vegan for decades, would never buy anything leather)
cies 9y ago
Veganism to is "making a serious effort to not harm animals by not consuming product for which animals were harmed to produce them". There are always edge-cases. I've not met vegans actively addressing that, for instance (1) any vehicle seems to kill some bug at some point and (2) most plant farming needs some kind of animal-pest control. Edge-cases aside, it is a fact that a vegan lifestyle vastly reduces animal suffering and death, and is is in most cases less taxing on our environment. > Do vegans know how we produce organic fertilizers? Yes there are plenty discussions on that topic and related topic in the vegan movement.
MisterBastahrd 9y ago
Ethical vegans are interested in doing the least harm, and so they'll investigate ingredients to ensure they're at least minimizing the suffering of animals.

mikk14 9y ago

Note: I am not vegan, nor I necessarily endorse the thinking behind this answer, but I'm trying to do a service to the discussion by reporting what I heard from a conversation with a vegan friend. I think the argument here is that most of most animals' worth come from eating them or their products. If everybody were to stop eating animals then it would not be economically feasible any more to use the "waste" parts of the animal for all the other products. We would find other more economically feasible ways to produce the same products (via plant matter or synthetics). Thus, by refusing to eat meat and animal products, all the other uses of animal suffering would cease to exist.

DonHopkins 9y ago
>"If everybody were to stop eating animals" So is part of being vegan trying to make everyone else stop eating animals? Or is it enough to just control what you eat yourself? Because if your point is to make all the other uses of animal suffering cease to exist, then it sounds like a hopeless cause unless you try to convert everyone else in the world into vegans.
- ben_w 9y ago
  If your goal is to climb Everest, each step gets you closer to your target; it is not a hopeless endeavour just because you cannot reach the summit in a single leap.
  - DonHopkins 9y ago
    Many people have successfully climbed Everest in the past. Are you saying that people have already converted everyone else in the world into vegans in the past, or that you're hopeful that it's as possible to eventually do that, as it is possible for yet another person to climb Everest?
    - ben_w 9y ago
      Neither, but the latter is closer. I’m saying that ending animal suffering takes many steps, and that not even trying because perfection doesn’t seem possible to you is akin to not even trying to go to the gym because you personally (I am making an assumption here) have not climbed Everest.
      - odammit 9y ago
        But maybe those people just want you to shut up? I have plenty of vegan friends and a small set of them beat the drum constantly. I’m not going to be vegan and if there was a meat prohibition, I’d be an outlaw. The thing that particularly drives me nuts about this kind of vegan is that they will bring cookies to a party and after everyone’s has eaten them point out that they were vegan and that everyone enjoyed them. A. Carrots are vegan. I can eat stuff without meat, too. B. No shit, Carl. You made them we assumed that. C. the cookies sucked and people weren’t going to be rude at a dinner party where someone already went out of their way to make you a vegan dish. D. They dipped them in milk because they were dry AF E. If I went to a vegan party and made vegan cookies and fed them to everyone and told them in the end there were pig eyeballs in them everyone would get pissed. I don’t do that because I’m not a self righteous asshole. </rant> Also, Carl sucks.

balthasar 9y ago

They should just give up and discard their emotions.

collyw 9y ago

Nearly all vegetarians I know wear leather shoes.....

dashundchen 9y ago
A vegan would not wear leather shoes. If we're going to go off anecdotes, most vegetarians I know wouldn't either. However many people I know transitioning to vegan/vegetarian lifestyles will continue to use leather products from before the switch, at least until they wear out, to avoid being wasteful.
- louhike 9y ago
  Exactly, I'm vegan but I have a leather jacket I bought before transitioning. I will use it until it wears out. Some vegans would sell/throw out all their non-vegans clothes afraid of what others might think, but a lot of vegans do not care much.
mikestew 9y ago
I’m a vegetarian and I have all kinds of leather items. Shoes, motorcycle jacket, probably a belt or two. Because leather, when taken care of, lasts a long time, and I haven’t always been a vegetarian. But it would be incredibly stupid to get rid of them just for the sake of appearance. And not every vegetarian is such based on morality. I wouldn’t be surprised if the “...but i eat fish/chicken” vegetarians wear leather.

LesZedCB 9y ago

For most, it's less about the hard and fast rule set as much as a constant minimization of our consumption of animal products.

travisjungroth 9y ago

I'll speak for myself. It's not about purity. It's about reducing harm. I know I can't be a "pure" vegan without either living in a bubble, or some remote area with really good farming. Do people know we use every part of the proverbial buffalo? Yes. Or do vegans often ponder the "ingredients" in everyday objects? And yes. I'm aware the paint on the walls might not be vegan. I just have to live with that. Is vaccinating your kids vegan? I don't know, and I don't care. I'm okay with using animal products for medicine. Maybe that makes me not vegan. Are all vegans anti-vax? No. Are soaps, cosmetics, detergents, plastics, tires, and lubricants made with stearic acid and other beef products vegan? Strictly, no. And if you're eating organic food, isn't it more likely that your spinach was grown in a bath of bone meal, blood meal, fish meal? Maybe. But I'm sure this is better than actually eating the animals, in a calculated sense. I make no effort to eat organic, anyway. Do vegans know how we produce organic fertilizers? Some do, some don't.

sc4les 9y ago

The definition reads: "Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose."

LaGrange 9y ago
And all the "gotcha" folk stumble on the "as far as is possible and practicable" part.
- sc4les 9y ago
  Oh yes

guildenstern 9y ago

Veganism is a commitment beyond diet. Every vegan I know does not intentionally make use of anything that contains animal products in any form. There is a huge industry for cruelty free cosmetics, for example. You’re mischaracterising veganism. A person who follows a diet of no animal products but uses animal products elsewhere in their life would usually say they follow a “plant based diet” and not claim to be vegan.

tom_mellior 9y ago

> Or do vegans often ponder the "ingredients" in everyday objects? Yes. > Is vaccinating your kids vegan? Are all vegans anti-vax? There is certainly a lunatic anti-vax fringe. But no, not all vegans are like that, even though many vaccines contain animal derived products. I find this interesting: http://rvgn.org/2015/05/09/anti-vax-and-veganism/ http://rvgn.org/2015/05/09/anti-vax-and-veganism/ > Are soaps, cosmetics, detergents, plastics, tires, and lubricants made with stearic acid and other beef products vegan? No. > Vegans for ethical reasons seem to only not want to consume a single part of the animal, but consume the rest, which is a pretty large portion, by weight. No vegan I ever interacted with fit this description. > And if you're eating organic food, isn't it more likely that your spinach was grown in a bath of bone meal, blood meal, fish meal? Possible, but if everyone stopped eating those animals, the prices of these products would presumably make their use uneconomical, so promoting veganism would change this. Though I admit I haven't heard vegans I know ever discuss this particular point. They are probably not aware of how the plants they eat are fertilized.

simonsarris 9y ago
> if everyone stopped eating those animals, the prices of these products would presumably make their use uneconomical If everyone stopped eating animals, the prices of a lot of plant agriculture might become uneconomical. My mistake for bringing in the organic/not distinction, since almost all non-organic fertilizers use some amount of animal products too. It's just that organic ones almost certainly use animal products. (Very) broadly speaking, you can grow grains and legumes at scale without soil amendments from animals, though IDK about cost. You cannot grow fruits and vegetables at scale without soil amendments from animal products. Like Diogenes living on handouts in Athens and decrying the materialist way of life, you can enjoy an economical vegan diet only if the world around you is not.
- tom_mellior 9y ago
  > You cannot grow fruits and vegetables at scale without soil amendments from animal products. I'm skeptical about the truth of this statement, but open minded. Could you provide a source?

lucideer 9y ago

> Or do vegans often ponder the "ingredients" in everyday objects? I have met many vegans that adhere to various levels of "strictness", (2nd-hand leather goods, isinglass filtered beers, etc. etc.), but even for the very most relaxed, non-adherent vegans, at a very minimum being acutely aware of the non-vegan nature of many/most non-edible products is definitely a consistent theme. This seems like basic 101 of pondering becoming a vegan. Of course they consider the ingredients of soaps, plastics, etc. > Vegans for ethical reasons seem to only not want to consume a single part of the animal, but consume the rest, which is a pretty large portion, by weight. Everything is anecdotal, so perhaps vegans you've met do think like this, but in my experience the opposite has been true. Some have been lovely people, some have been a little closer to the negative stereotype of vegans that's propagated on the internet, but they have been at least universally well-versed in the ingredients of their own consumption. > Do vegans know how we produce organic fertilizers? Yes.

gambiting 9y ago

I've had someone who insisted they wanted to get out of my car because I have leather seats(and I was giving him a lift as a favour). To me, that's 1000% insane, but hey, his choice.

UweSchmidt 9y ago
It's not "1000% insane", and I am sure you could easily see their point of view if you wanted to, even if you disagree. Imagine something you don't want to be part of. Imagine yourself making a kind of a stand in that situation. Today I ate at that nasty sausage place - they had a collection box, asking for donations for animals in need, right next to the grill. Insanity's all over the place...
- yesenadam 9y ago
  "To me it's X" "It's not X" - do you not see that here, you seem (ironically) the one deficient in seeing the other guy's point of view? At least, I read him as saying "It seems X to me", which is not something you can disagree/argue with—I think he began "To me.." to avoid that kind of criticism, by stating an indisputable fact. That said, I mostly agree with both of you. But my casting vote says - yup, 1000% insane hehe. That would seem pretty crazy to me if I witnessed that. (Disclosure: vegan for decades, would never buy anything leather)

cies 9y ago

Veganism to is "making a serious effort to not harm animals by not consuming product for which animals were harmed to produce them". There are always edge-cases. I've not met vegans actively addressing that, for instance (1) any vehicle seems to kill some bug at some point and (2) most plant farming needs some kind of animal-pest control. Edge-cases aside, it is a fact that a vegan lifestyle vastly reduces animal suffering and death, and is is in most cases less taxing on our environment. > Do vegans know how we produce organic fertilizers? Yes there are plenty discussions on that topic and related topic in the vegan movement.

MisterBastahrd 9y ago

Ethical vegans are interested in doing the least harm, and so they'll investigate ingredients to ensure they're at least minimizing the suffering of animals.