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Doesn't this fall prey to the fact that there isn't a black and what distinction for exactly what's vegan? There are people that will argue that honey is suita

Doesn't this fall prey to the fact that there isn't a black and what distinction for exactly what's vegan? There are people that will argue that honey is suitable for vegans: http://veganbros.com/1-reason-honey-vegan/ http://veganbros.com/1-reason-honey-vegan/ There are even people that will argue that shellfish are suitable for vegans to eat: http://www.slate.com/articles/life/food/2010/04/consider_the_oyster.html http://www.slate.com/articles/life/food/2010/04/consider_the...

markstos 9y ago
The bigger picture here is that plant-rich diets are one the top most effective solutions to climate change (#4 on the Drawdown.org list): http://www.drawdown.org/solutions-summary-by-rank http://www.drawdown.org/solutions-summary-by-rank Rather than worrying about what is or is not vegan, just focus on eating more plants.
- KozmoNau7 9y ago
  I believe the saying goes "eat food, not too much, mostly plants". Having been in a relationship with a wonderful German woman for a while now, I've found out that Germany has a very solid history of vegetarian cooking. Not necessarily for ethical reasons, but because of the periods in history where meat was too expensive or simply unavailable for most people. So they had to come up with a bunch of great (primarily) vegetarian dishes. You'll probably never get me to give up my lemon chicken or shawarma completely, but you would have just as much trouble getting me to give up my portobellos or brussel sprouts.
taejo 9y ago
> There are even people that will argue that shellfish are suitable for vegans to eat: http://www.slate.com/articles/life/food/2010/04/consider_the_oyster.html http://www.slate.com/articles/life/food/2010/04/consider_the... "Vegans should eat oysters" is not the same as "oysters are vegan".
simonsarris 9y ago
There has to be a word for this kind of... comprehensive incompleteness. Being so particular about a vegan diet (for ethical reasons) strikes me as very odd when animal products are in use every day around us by vegans. Do people know we use every part of the proverbial buffalo? Or do vegans often ponder the "ingredients" in everyday objects? Is vaccinating your kids vegan? Are all vegans anti-vax? Are soaps, cosmetics, detergents, plastics, tires, and lubricants made with stearic acid and other beef products vegan? Vegans for ethical reasons seem to only not want to consume a single part of the animal, but consume the rest, which is a pretty large portion, by weight. And if you're eating organic food, isn't it more likely that your spinach was grown in a bath of bone meal, blood meal, fish meal? Do vegans know how we produce organic fertilizers?
- mikk14 9y ago
  Note: I am not vegan, nor I necessarily endorse the thinking behind this answer, but I'm trying to do a service to the discussion by reporting what I heard from a conversation with a vegan friend. I think the argument here is that most of most animals' worth come from eating them or their products. If everybody were to stop eating animals then it would not be economically feasible any more to use the "waste" parts of the animal for all the other products. We would find other more economically feasible ways to produce the same products (via plant matter or synthetics). Thus, by refusing to eat meat and animal products, all the other uses of animal suffering would cease to exist.
  - DonHopkins 9y ago
    >"If everybody were to stop eating animals" So is part of being vegan trying to make everyone else stop eating animals? Or is it enough to just control what you eat yourself? Because if your point is to make all the other uses of animal suffering cease to exist, then it sounds like a hopeless cause unless you try to convert everyone else in the world into vegans.
    - ben_w 9y ago
      If your goal is to climb Everest, each step gets you closer to your target; it is not a hopeless endeavour just because you cannot reach the summit in a single leap.
marricks 9y ago
I think people like to argue the details, like honey and shellfish, but most vegans I know are pretty aware of what vegan is, anything with an animal product or byproduct. There are definitely clueless people who eat chicken and call themselves vegan and such, but anyone whose done the research, or at least knows what an animal actually is, agrees on the base set and may have personal exclusions like honey.
thinnerlizzy 9y ago
Perhaps "plant-based" is the term they were looking for.
- Fnoord 9y ago
  Plant-based is another word for "not vegan enough", and when one suggests someone should use the word plant-based they're telling that person they're "too far from the ideal vegan definition to call themselves vegan". It is very defeatist approach, and IMO harmful. We should embrace the fact that in our societies, perfect veganism is a very extreme idealistic endpoint. Its the travel towards it which is already good. Heck, everyone who's not even vegetarian but reducetarian is doing a lot of good for both our environment as well as animal welfare.
hjek 9y ago
Honey is clearly an animal product as it is made by bees. Simple. https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/why-honey-not-vegan https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/why-honey-not-vegan > There are even people that will argue that shellfish are suitable for vegans to eat You can find people that will argue all kinds of absurd things, like you can create peace by starting a war.
odammit 9y ago
Cows are in car tires, asphalt, and drywall. I suggest people moooooove on out of town if they want to be militant about their veganism.
- loceng 9y ago
  This points to a larger societal problem of lackluster labeling requirements - people should at least have the knowledge so they can make informed decisions.
  - odammit 9y ago
    No one is going to label the streets.
    - loceng 9y ago
      Why not? As a citizen paying taxes I'd like the ability to quickly know who the paving company was (or if city workers, then definitely who specifically was involved), and who the supplier of the asphalt (etc) is, etc; a platform like the stock market but for cities, requiring to release an annual report (maybe some already do have this requirement?), and the ecosystem that could develop around it would be very useful. Is a city run well - why and who seems to be leading the success?
      - odammit 9y ago
        And Waze will add an “Avoid Non-Vegan Routes” option.
rsynnott 9y ago
This takes the no-honey approach: https://github.com/hmontazeri/is-vegan/blob/9d0b35a41c21bdcce07232c8826a5f37166b2d9b/src/util/nonvegan.json#L447 https://github.com/hmontazeri/is-vegan/blob/9d0b35a41c21bdcc... Considering honey to be vegan sounds a bit fringe, to be honest.
- delecti 9y ago
  Is veganism "eliminating the consumption of any animal products" or "reducing consumption of products that are produced due to animal exploitation and suffering". In the former case, honey is clearly not allowed, but in the latter it could be. Beekeepers and their bees can definitely be more of a symbiotic relationship than an exploitative one. I see both sides of the debate; at the very least it's not as black-and-white as most other animal products.
  - cies 9y ago
    > Beekeepers and their bees can definitely be more of a symbiotic relationship than an exploitative one. Seriously? Beekeeping can be quite stressful for the bees, in some cases colonies are pruned. And the keeper gets to make money selling the honey that the bees did happily give up (the try to sting anyone taking their honey). This is exploitation by definition. Calling it a symbiosis is euphemistic.
    - delecti 9y ago
      There are links elsewhere in this thread that defend honey as vegan. I'm neither a vegan nor an expert in beekeeping, so it's not an argument I'm interested in having.
      - cies 9y ago
        No worries. Not having it than. It's just to classify that relationship as symbiotic which makes my question your understanding of the word symbiotic.
- ceejayoz 9y ago
nimbius 9y ago
Given the challenge of its definition, subjective or collective interpretation is a major component of veganism. Similar approaches can be taken to various degrees of rabbinic kosher law, as well as Islamic halal lawfulness. generally most vegans (including myself) are adopting the diet for health as well as compassion, although many use it just as well as a cudgel to denigrate people over social media. If I am cooking the food, it is vegan. If I am eating out with friends, I will make every effort to find a vegan option, however I will acquiesce to a vegetarian option if none are available as I understand the nature of the diet ive chosen. Most vegans refer to this as 'the paris exception' coined by peter singer.

markstos 9y ago

The bigger picture here is that plant-rich diets are one the top most effective solutions to climate change (#4 on the Drawdown.org list): http://www.drawdown.org/solutions-summary-by-rank http://www.drawdown.org/solutions-summary-by-rank Rather than worrying about what is or is not vegan, just focus on eating more plants.

KozmoNau7 9y ago
I believe the saying goes "eat food, not too much, mostly plants". Having been in a relationship with a wonderful German woman for a while now, I've found out that Germany has a very solid history of vegetarian cooking. Not necessarily for ethical reasons, but because of the periods in history where meat was too expensive or simply unavailable for most people. So they had to come up with a bunch of great (primarily) vegetarian dishes. You'll probably never get me to give up my lemon chicken or shawarma completely, but you would have just as much trouble getting me to give up my portobellos or brussel sprouts.

taejo 9y ago

> There are even people that will argue that shellfish are suitable for vegans to eat: http://www.slate.com/articles/life/food/2010/04/consider_the_oyster.html http://www.slate.com/articles/life/food/2010/04/consider_the... "Vegans should eat oysters" is not the same as "oysters are vegan".

simonsarris 9y ago

There has to be a word for this kind of... comprehensive incompleteness. Being so particular about a vegan diet (for ethical reasons) strikes me as very odd when animal products are in use every day around us by vegans. Do people know we use every part of the proverbial buffalo? Or do vegans often ponder the "ingredients" in everyday objects? Is vaccinating your kids vegan? Are all vegans anti-vax? Are soaps, cosmetics, detergents, plastics, tires, and lubricants made with stearic acid and other beef products vegan? Vegans for ethical reasons seem to only not want to consume a single part of the animal, but consume the rest, which is a pretty large portion, by weight. And if you're eating organic food, isn't it more likely that your spinach was grown in a bath of bone meal, blood meal, fish meal? Do vegans know how we produce organic fertilizers?

mikk14 9y ago
Note: I am not vegan, nor I necessarily endorse the thinking behind this answer, but I'm trying to do a service to the discussion by reporting what I heard from a conversation with a vegan friend. I think the argument here is that most of most animals' worth come from eating them or their products. If everybody were to stop eating animals then it would not be economically feasible any more to use the "waste" parts of the animal for all the other products. We would find other more economically feasible ways to produce the same products (via plant matter or synthetics). Thus, by refusing to eat meat and animal products, all the other uses of animal suffering would cease to exist.
- DonHopkins 9y ago
  >"If everybody were to stop eating animals" So is part of being vegan trying to make everyone else stop eating animals? Or is it enough to just control what you eat yourself? Because if your point is to make all the other uses of animal suffering cease to exist, then it sounds like a hopeless cause unless you try to convert everyone else in the world into vegans.
  - ben_w 9y ago
    If your goal is to climb Everest, each step gets you closer to your target; it is not a hopeless endeavour just because you cannot reach the summit in a single leap.

marricks 9y ago

I think people like to argue the details, like honey and shellfish, but most vegans I know are pretty aware of what vegan is, anything with an animal product or byproduct. There are definitely clueless people who eat chicken and call themselves vegan and such, but anyone whose done the research, or at least knows what an animal actually is, agrees on the base set and may have personal exclusions like honey.

thinnerlizzy 9y ago

Perhaps "plant-based" is the term they were looking for.

Fnoord 9y ago
Plant-based is another word for "not vegan enough", and when one suggests someone should use the word plant-based they're telling that person they're "too far from the ideal vegan definition to call themselves vegan". It is very defeatist approach, and IMO harmful. We should embrace the fact that in our societies, perfect veganism is a very extreme idealistic endpoint. Its the travel towards it which is already good. Heck, everyone who's not even vegetarian but reducetarian is doing a lot of good for both our environment as well as animal welfare.

hjek 9y ago

Honey is clearly an animal product as it is made by bees. Simple. https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/why-honey-not-vegan https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/why-honey-not-vegan > There are even people that will argue that shellfish are suitable for vegans to eat You can find people that will argue all kinds of absurd things, like you can create peace by starting a war.

odammit 9y ago

Cows are in car tires, asphalt, and drywall. I suggest people moooooove on out of town if they want to be militant about their veganism.

loceng 9y ago
This points to a larger societal problem of lackluster labeling requirements - people should at least have the knowledge so they can make informed decisions.
- odammit 9y ago
  No one is going to label the streets.
  - loceng 9y ago
    Why not? As a citizen paying taxes I'd like the ability to quickly know who the paving company was (or if city workers, then definitely who specifically was involved), and who the supplier of the asphalt (etc) is, etc; a platform like the stock market but for cities, requiring to release an annual report (maybe some already do have this requirement?), and the ecosystem that could develop around it would be very useful. Is a city run well - why and who seems to be leading the success?
    - odammit 9y ago
      And Waze will add an “Avoid Non-Vegan Routes” option.

rsynnott 9y ago

This takes the no-honey approach: https://github.com/hmontazeri/is-vegan/blob/9d0b35a41c21bdcce07232c8826a5f37166b2d9b/src/util/nonvegan.json#L447 https://github.com/hmontazeri/is-vegan/blob/9d0b35a41c21bdcc... Considering honey to be vegan sounds a bit fringe, to be honest.

delecti 9y ago
Is veganism "eliminating the consumption of any animal products" or "reducing consumption of products that are produced due to animal exploitation and suffering". In the former case, honey is clearly not allowed, but in the latter it could be. Beekeepers and their bees can definitely be more of a symbiotic relationship than an exploitative one. I see both sides of the debate; at the very least it's not as black-and-white as most other animal products.
- cies 9y ago
  > Beekeepers and their bees can definitely be more of a symbiotic relationship than an exploitative one. Seriously? Beekeeping can be quite stressful for the bees, in some cases colonies are pruned. And the keeper gets to make money selling the honey that the bees did happily give up (the try to sting anyone taking their honey). This is exploitation by definition. Calling it a symbiosis is euphemistic.
  - delecti 9y ago
    There are links elsewhere in this thread that defend honey as vegan. I'm neither a vegan nor an expert in beekeeping, so it's not an argument I'm interested in having.
    - cies 9y ago
      No worries. Not having it than. It's just to classify that relationship as symbiotic which makes my question your understanding of the word symbiotic.
ceejayoz 9y ago

nimbius 9y ago

Given the challenge of its definition, subjective or collective interpretation is a major component of veganism. Similar approaches can be taken to various degrees of rabbinic kosher law, as well as Islamic halal lawfulness. generally most vegans (including myself) are adopting the diet for health as well as compassion, although many use it just as well as a cudgel to denigrate people over social media. If I am cooking the food, it is vegan. If I am eating out with friends, I will make every effort to find a vegan option, however I will acquiesce to a vegetarian option if none are available as I understand the nature of the diet ive chosen. Most vegans refer to this as 'the paris exception' coined by peter singer.