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Email that is reliant on the cloud is dumb. A raspberry pi has more processing power than's needed to search and store email. ... etc etc This trope is absolu

Email that is reliant on the cloud is dumb. A raspberry pi has more processing power than's needed to search and store email. ... etc etc This trope is absolute bullshit. What people want is for stuff to work and, if stuff doesn't work, for it to be someone else's fault and/or be easy to fix. Self-hosting fails massively at the second criterion there. Right now, if a cellphone breaks, you can just get a new one and your contacts, messages, apps, etc all sync back to it. Done, you're back on your feet. If you have self-hosted email or smart-home-stuff, the failure modes are much worse, and you're far less likely to have someone else to blame. Also, a raspberry pi does not have enough power to do good voice recognition, not to the level of siri/alexa/google. It also doesn't have enough storage to cache all your music, videos you may wish to play on the TV, etc, so some external cloud integration will be needed regardless. Self hosting has failed. People use gmail, not postfix. People use spotify, not cds or local mp3 players. People use netflix, not blurays. People use google search to find previously seen info, not a locally saved and curated archive of websites or a home-grown card catalog system. People use facebook to communicate, not diaspora. > it is trivial to create a more user friendly device This is obviously false or else devices like this would have been trivial to make and seen some success... but things like sandstorm.io, yunohost, and others have been incredibly complex projects and have not really succeeded. It's clearly not trivial since those people have collectively thrown millions of dollars and dozens of man-years at the problem with no glimmer of hope. The closest we have to success in this space, I'd say, is NASs which ship owncloud... and those have not caught in for the average household at all.

2muchcoffeeman 9y ago
> Self hosting has failed. People use gmail, not postfix. People use spotify, not cds or local mp3 players. People use netflix, not blurays. People use google search to find previously seen info, not a locally saved and curated archive of websites or a home-grown card catalog system. People use facebook to communicate, not diaspora. None of these things will kill you if they happen not to work or have serious drawbacks. Software update to Nest could have literally killed people and caused thousands of dollars of property damage. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/14/fashion/nest-thermostat-glitch-battery-dies-software-freeze.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/14/fashion/nest-thermostat-g... Or maybe everything you say is being recorded and sent to Google all the time. http://bgr.com/2017/10/11/google-home-mini-spying-on-user-fix/ http://bgr.com/2017/10/11/google-home-mini-spying-on-user-fi... I'll stick with my dumb appliances thanks.
- EADGBE 9y ago
  I think the proposition of death is a bit of a stretch. Definitely inconvenient, though. FWIW, dumb appliances could have done the same thing. A furnace that stops working in the dead of winter while away can still burst your pipes if they get cold enough, a broken appliance (and an operator unwillingly to change the situation) can still cause someone to freeze the death or suffer from a deadly heatstroke. This particular issue cited first probably has mostly to do with the fact that nest really wants you to have a 24V power source for the thermostat (A "C" or "Common Wire"). They've figured out how to make it work without for most systems, but that relies on an internal battery.
  - 2muchcoffeeman 9y ago
    Sure, there are still other failure modes for a furnace and you can still freeze to death without a Nest. But now you can encounter similar situations because of a software bug. Wasn’t that C wire issue causing Nests to continuously turn on the furnace causing homes to get too hot?
tjoff 9y ago
Self-hosting doesn't impose a ban on having the ability to create an optional account on the manufacturer (or your own!) servers and to do an automatic cloud backup of that config file. Spotify is a good example of something that could work identically to what it does today self-hosted. No change anywhere, no extra setup at all, except for the fact that storing the entire spotify library is impractical. When I talked about a more user-friendly device I meant something of a smart-home controller. Not a general purpose script that glues together some open source packages that each require a weekend of setup from an enthusiast... No, that none of those has taken off doesn't surprise me the least (that doesn't mean they are useful or that I could see myself using one, but it is not for average Joe).
- galumptuous 9y ago
  In rural Vermont, which is clearly not where most people live, we lose power for hours or days (or even weeks) every year. I imagine there are many communities throughout the world with similar types of power interruptions. Anything that is "mission critical" for survival (heat, water, and the ability to enter our home) must be as reliable and robust as possible. The idea of replacing the perfectly functional metal-key technology, for example, with some door-lock device that depended on a temperamental electrical grid would be a strategically unwise decision. Big risks, little rewards. What is the fail-safe plan for these sorts of smart home devices when there's an earthquake or hurricane or something?
  - yorwba 9y ago
    It should be totally possible to run a door-lock controller with minimal power consumption to make it last months on a relatively small battery without constant connection to the grid. You could even harvest energy from the door knob to make it completely independent from external power. Of course the average "smart" lock is unlikely to be engineered with such considerations in mind and I doubt that the extra effort would pay off financially, but it isn't completely impossible.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
taneq 9y ago
It's understandable and acceptable that my message that I'm sending to somewhere else doesn't work unless my link to somewhere else is working. It's not understandable nor acceptable if my appliance within my home with no inherent external dependencies doesn't work unless that link to somewhere else is working. > This is obviously false or else devices like this would have been trivial to make and seen some success... Rubbish. There's simply more economic incentive for companies to create devices which siphon off usage data for them to sell.
- kasey_junk 9y ago
  Are you really arguing that it’s not easier for the company supporting these products to deploy their software as a service in the cloud? I’ll buy cynicism around the data collection aspects of these things but one only need to look to the desktop application marketplace to see the broader trend. I’ve supported both self hosted & cloud hosted products for money. I know which one I prefer to work on and I’m surprised anyone in tech would disagree.
- EADGBE 9y ago
  All of these solutions I've seen still have manual override. If my nest isn't connected to the internet, I can still go over to it and turn it and the heat will come on (or go off). If my smoke detectors can't talk to the internet, they'll still work like a regular smoke detector. And even control my Nest through it's own mesh network (If I want them to). I can't speak from experience, but I'd bet that my garage door remote will still operate the door even without a wifi network to sell my open/close times to the highest bidder. Regardless, I don't think Craftsman is interested in my garage door habits; they're interested in selling me a new garage door that I otherwise wouldn't think I'd need to upgrade. Smart home functionality is just one way to get that sale in. And it apparently works.

2muchcoffeeman 9y ago

> Self hosting has failed. People use gmail, not postfix. People use spotify, not cds or local mp3 players. People use netflix, not blurays. People use google search to find previously seen info, not a locally saved and curated archive of websites or a home-grown card catalog system. People use facebook to communicate, not diaspora. None of these things will kill you if they happen not to work or have serious drawbacks. Software update to Nest could have literally killed people and caused thousands of dollars of property damage. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/14/fashion/nest-thermostat-glitch-battery-dies-software-freeze.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/14/fashion/nest-thermostat-g... Or maybe everything you say is being recorded and sent to Google all the time. http://bgr.com/2017/10/11/google-home-mini-spying-on-user-fix/ http://bgr.com/2017/10/11/google-home-mini-spying-on-user-fi... I'll stick with my dumb appliances thanks.

EADGBE 9y ago
I think the proposition of death is a bit of a stretch. Definitely inconvenient, though. FWIW, dumb appliances could have done the same thing. A furnace that stops working in the dead of winter while away can still burst your pipes if they get cold enough, a broken appliance (and an operator unwillingly to change the situation) can still cause someone to freeze the death or suffer from a deadly heatstroke. This particular issue cited first probably has mostly to do with the fact that nest really wants you to have a 24V power source for the thermostat (A "C" or "Common Wire"). They've figured out how to make it work without for most systems, but that relies on an internal battery.
- 2muchcoffeeman 9y ago
  Sure, there are still other failure modes for a furnace and you can still freeze to death without a Nest. But now you can encounter similar situations because of a software bug. Wasn’t that C wire issue causing Nests to continuously turn on the furnace causing homes to get too hot?

tjoff 9y ago

Self-hosting doesn't impose a ban on having the ability to create an optional account on the manufacturer (or your own!) servers and to do an automatic cloud backup of that config file. Spotify is a good example of something that could work identically to what it does today self-hosted. No change anywhere, no extra setup at all, except for the fact that storing the entire spotify library is impractical. When I talked about a more user-friendly device I meant something of a smart-home controller. Not a general purpose script that glues together some open source packages that each require a weekend of setup from an enthusiast... No, that none of those has taken off doesn't surprise me the least (that doesn't mean they are useful or that I could see myself using one, but it is not for average Joe).

galumptuous 9y ago
In rural Vermont, which is clearly not where most people live, we lose power for hours or days (or even weeks) every year. I imagine there are many communities throughout the world with similar types of power interruptions. Anything that is "mission critical" for survival (heat, water, and the ability to enter our home) must be as reliable and robust as possible. The idea of replacing the perfectly functional metal-key technology, for example, with some door-lock device that depended on a temperamental electrical grid would be a strategically unwise decision. Big risks, little rewards. What is the fail-safe plan for these sorts of smart home devices when there's an earthquake or hurricane or something?
- yorwba 9y ago
  It should be totally possible to run a door-lock controller with minimal power consumption to make it last months on a relatively small battery without constant connection to the grid. You could even harvest energy from the door knob to make it completely independent from external power. Of course the average "smart" lock is unlikely to be engineered with such considerations in mind and I doubt that the extra effort would pay off financially, but it isn't completely impossible.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]

taneq 9y ago

It's understandable and acceptable that my message that I'm sending to somewhere else doesn't work unless my link to somewhere else is working. It's not understandable nor acceptable if my appliance within my home with no inherent external dependencies doesn't work unless that link to somewhere else is working. > This is obviously false or else devices like this would have been trivial to make and seen some success... Rubbish. There's simply more economic incentive for companies to create devices which siphon off usage data for them to sell.

kasey_junk 9y ago
Are you really arguing that it’s not easier for the company supporting these products to deploy their software as a service in the cloud? I’ll buy cynicism around the data collection aspects of these things but one only need to look to the desktop application marketplace to see the broader trend. I’ve supported both self hosted & cloud hosted products for money. I know which one I prefer to work on and I’m surprised anyone in tech would disagree.
EADGBE 9y ago
All of these solutions I've seen still have manual override. If my nest isn't connected to the internet, I can still go over to it and turn it and the heat will come on (or go off). If my smoke detectors can't talk to the internet, they'll still work like a regular smoke detector. And even control my Nest through it's own mesh network (If I want them to). I can't speak from experience, but I'd bet that my garage door remote will still operate the door even without a wifi network to sell my open/close times to the highest bidder. Regardless, I don't think Craftsman is interested in my garage door habits; they're interested in selling me a new garage door that I otherwise wouldn't think I'd need to upgrade. Smart home functionality is just one way to get that sale in. And it apparently works.