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3D Color Print
- grenoire 9y agoGood Lord, these things are humongous. Not your average hobbyist printer for sure.
- RobinL 9y agoIn the long run I hope that the model for this kind of thing will be 'printing as a service', much like how historically you went to a shop to get photos developed. It'd be amazing to be able to upload a design and pick it up/get it delivered next day, for the 'commodity cost' of the printing.
- jotux 9y agoThere are a lot of companies already doing this: Shapeways, Ponoko, Stratasys direct, 3dhubs, proto labs, etc. Most have a 2-5 day turnaround but you can pay to expedite and get parts next day. I have two 3D printers in-house at my job (Projet 460 and 3500HD) which we use for day-to-day prototyping and we commonly go to outside companies for limited production runs.
- bradfa 9y agoShapeways already has HP Jet Fusion printers (albeit not with the color printing abilities) that they'll print parts for you on-demand with for quite reasonable prices. It's not "next day" delivery, but it's not far off from how mail-order film photo developing/printing works. https://www.shapeways.com/materials/hp-jet-fusion https://www.shapeways.com/materials/hp-jet-fusion
- chrisper 9y agoNow, if that printer could be part of https://instantink.hpconnected.com https://instantink.hpconnected.com it would be great.
- mihular 9y agoStarting at $130,000 no less. I'll stick with my prusa MK2 for a little bit longer.
- timdorr 9y agoThey also have ~1500x the build volume (15,643,840 cm3 vs 10500 cm3), so 144x the cost is possibly warranted. They are two totally different classes of machine.
- cptskippy 9y agoUh no, HP's build volume is presented in MM, Prusa uses CM. So... 580's build volume: 190 x 332 x 248mm. Prusa I3 MkIIs build volume: 250 x 210 x 200 mm. 15,643,840 cm3 vs 10,500,000 cm3
- gfosco 9y agoThis one has been around for a while: https://www.mimakiusa.com/products/3d-printers/mimaki-3d-printer/ https://www.mimakiusa.com/products/3d-printers/mimaki-3d-pri... Mimaki is a pretty awesome company.. we have one of their fabric printers, the tx300p-1800.
- darkstar999 9y agoCan you imagine how much they would charge for the "ink" on these things?
- donquichotte 9y agoMy thoughts exactly. And since it's for corporations, it will also feature a display and have a really slow and buggy Java UI. It will randomly crash and have badly translated error messages for a premium price of 130'000 USD. And of course, you will only be able to use HP filaments!
- bpicolo 9y ago> HP Jet Fusion 3D 4210 Printing Solution average printing cost-per-part is 65% lower versus the average cost of comparable FDM and SLS printer solutions from $100,000 USD to $300,000 USD on market as of April, 2016 Depends on how much you believe that statement I suppose?
- rangersanger 9y agoIf you look at the fine print they compared the "default mode" of the other printers with their "fast mode." I've evaluated a few 3d printers and from what I recall the default mode is usually fairly high quality (read uses more material.) We were about ready to pull the trigger on a competitors printer (~100k machine) but at the last minute figured out that the media would basically cost us the salary for a full time employee. Instead we're running a cheapo FDM machine for parts where quality isn't critical and outsourcing the highend stuff to shapeways (who are mentioned below.) Overall I've been really happy with this strategy.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- wand3r 9y agoTo be fair they are weighing an unreleased solution in the most optimal configuration against nearly 2 year old data. For 100k shopping right now it would be interesting to get an apples to apples in the entire market because that is what people purchasing this will be looking at
- diggan 9y agoMaybe my understanding of "Reinvent the wheel" is wrong, but I always took it as "spend time inventing something that already exists", basically wasting your time. Didn't think it was a positive term you want to put on your landing page.
- jpalomaki 9y agoSee for example Michelin "reinventing" the wheel [1]. Taking old stuff and recreating them with new kind of internal structure which is made possible by 3d printing. [1] https://www.engadget.com/2017/08/07/michelin-vision-biodegradable-3d-print-airless-tire/ https://www.engadget.com/2017/08/07/michelin-vision-biodegra...
- jaclaz 9y agoJust for the record/FYI, they already re-invented it as the "tweel" a few years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweel http://www.michelintweel.com/ http://www.michelintweel.com/ and it is actually available (and works just fine in some specific application).
- RobinL 9y agoI see what you mean. I suppose what they're going for is 'this product is so revolutionary that it's equivalent to someone inventing a replacement for the wheel'.
- arnarbi 9y agoIt's a tounge-in-cheek line here.
- utopcell 9y agoI believe the phrase ``reinventing the wheel'' emphasizes the difficulty of optimizing something that is fundamental, widely used, and has been tackled by armies of engineers.
- jotux 9y agoIt's very similar to the Projet x60 (formerly ZPrinters) or projet 4500 series printers from 3D systems. The printer lays down thin layers of powder material then goes by with a bonding agent and color as it prints. The prints are relatively cheap because after the print you can vacuum up the excess material and use it in subsequent prints.
- negus 9y agoI bet, they started with cartridges with anti-refill chip, and only then proceeded with the printer itself
- bob_theslob646 9y agoHow does this printer differ from other 3D printers on the market?
- onesun 9y agoFull color. But as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, it's nothing new. Printer's with this functionality have been around for 15+ years. HP is like Apple, take an existing technology, sprinkle liberally with hip marketing, and boom! -- act like you invented it.
- gene-h 9y agoTheir printing process is pretty new. Sure printers that can print in color have existed for a while now, but they weren't able to produce strong parts like this printer does. Other printers that produced similar strong parts also couldn't print as fast as this printer.
- borgchick 9y agoI wonder if the target audience of this printer even care about material properties like strength. I mean, what functional parts do you know of, in your car, bike, washing machine, are in full colour? I feel like the people who want full colour will be making pre-production sample prints for marketing purposes.
- crwalker 9y agoThis is not correct. We use HP jet fusion 3D printers to manufacture production parts at Jabil (see https://www.jabil.com/insights/blog-main/3d-printing-reality-printing-the-printer.html https://www.jabil.com/insights/blog-main/3d-printing-reality...) and MJF is quite different from other tech e.g. binder jetting, LOM, FDM, SLA, SLS, DMLS, EBM, CBAM, CLIP. Differences include cost structures, speeds, material capabilities, resolution, etc.
- unreal37 9y agoA 3D printed chain link that can lift a car. That's a pretty strong 3D part...
- rfraile 9y agoApart - Why they use the url with the "www8." name instead of "www."?
- jagger27 9y agowww8.hp.com has two A records that point to Akamai. My guess is that it's easier to mess with a subdomain for global CDN stuff than the top level.
- wishinghand 9y agoGibson Guitars used to do this too with www2, but it looks like they've cleaned up their act.
- slobotron 9y agoIIRC, different internal groups get control of different www{n} subdomains.
- discreditable 9y agoHP's website is legendarily disorganized and horrible.
- DonHopkins 9y agoBecause you have to wwwait for it.
- wyldfire 9y agoIndeed, it's massive and expensive. But this probably falls in line with some of the floor space/capital budget of the earliest plotters or copier/scanner/printers. So maybe in ten years every office will have one.
- amenod 9y agoDoes every office need one? That's the main difference from 2D printing the way I see it - unless the printing process gets way better it will never catch on enough to warrant low prices. Then again, maybe they said the same about early printers, comparing them to offset press?
- Aardwolf 9y agoQuestion totally off topic, related to writing rather than 3D printing! They call it not just the "HP Jet Fusion 580 Color 3D Printer", but the "HP Jet Fusion 580 Color 3D Printing Solution" When I myself would be the target audience, "3D printer" sells better than "3D printing solution" I think. Do you know what the true target audience they are writing for is, and if it really genuinely is so that there are such audiences where adding words like "Solution" helps the sell? Can you please elaborate on that and give intuition why? Same applies for some other such words, like adding "Technology" to something that is more like a specification, and of course "Enterprise". Thanks! :D
- sbr464 9y agoI feel like the printing solution verbiage could be fitting since current 3d printing workflows include steps like cleanup, chemical washing or baths and heat curing before having a finished product. Compared to a current desktop printer where you press a button and have the final product. Definitely curious to check out this model and other tech coming soon!
- voxadam 9y agoMaybe HP is doing there best to steer clear of anything that might result in Stratasys suing them.
- theobon 9y agoFor a company about to spend ~$250,000 on the ability to fabricate 3d models in house "3D Printing Solution" does message better. A 3D printer is just an expensive tool that requires expensive software and expensive people to make it work. A 3D Printing Solution implies a complete suite from installation to software to support that doesn't require investing in specialized skills.
- reaperducer 9y agoIt makes sense that someone who uses "message" as a verb would think "solution" is a good way to brand a printer, 3D or otherwise. /I kid! I kid!
- 9y ago
- beamatronic 9y agoIf you can put one of these very near (in) Amazons warehouses / delivery network you may not strictly need it in house.
- asperous 9y agoSo basically like shapeways
- erric 9y agoCan we please not link the commercials?
- crwalker 9y agoWe use HP jet fusion printers to manufacture end use parts (see https://www.jabil.com/insights/blog-main/3d-printing-reality-printing-the-printer.html https://www.jabil.com/insights/blog-main/3d-printing-reality...). They are impressive machines, and I'm excited to see the full color ones in action. Also, the MJF API is pretty well designed.
- leoedin 9y agoDo you work for Jabil or are you just using that article as an example? How do you find the mechanical properties of the parts? Do they vary print to print? Do they suffer from the same problems that cheaper 3D printed parts do - principally either very low strength across the layers (for FDM prints) or very soft materials (cured epoxy and most of the SLS prints I've dealt with).
- noen 9y agoNot affiliated with Nabil or HP, but I have done a fair bit of research on the tech for this printer line. It is pretty fundamentally different to FDM or SLA. Closest to SLS, but still not really the same. Mechanically it should be very similar to SLS, but uses a deposition style more like SLA. So in theory it should besomewhere in between. The material I've read and demo material prints I've seen so far back that up. Should be good for small run cosmetic and functional demo prototypes, but you want see it used for mechanical short run production parts.
- crwalker 9y agoMJF is used for production parts today.
- abakker 9y agoI was recently at HP labs and got to see the mono color printers in action. The process is very consistent, and they told me that the parts are very uniform. Given my own observation of a bunch of finished parts and the active process, it produces very consistent results. The pieces were pretty damn durable. (I couldn't break them by hand). They used either Nylon or Glass Fiber reinforced Nylon.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- sekou 9y agoIt's amazing to think that not long ago we marveled and scoffed at the prohibitive cost of 2D computer printing, going from simple monochrome printouts to highly detailed full color physical manifestations.
- rkagerer 9y agoHow much do they cost? What kind of printing technology?
- rkagerer 9y agoSomeone below mentioned $130k, but is it the same product as this article states starts at $50k? https://www.techrepublic.com/article/hps-50k-3d-printer-shows-voxels-open-materials-will-drive-future-manufacturing/ https://www.techrepublic.com/article/hps-50k-3d-printer-show... Powder + ink technology kind of a mix of polyjet and SLS?
- Ajedi32 9y agoThe site claims: > delivering quality output, up to 10 times faster[2] at half the cost[3] And, reading the fine print: > Based on internal testing and public data, HP Jet Fusion 3D average printing cost per part is half the average cost of comparable FDM & SLS printer solutions from $100,000 USD to $300,000 USD on market as of April, 2016. Cost analysis based on: standard solution configuration price, supplies price, and maintenance costs recommended by manufacturer. Cost criteria: printing 1 build chamber per day/5 days per week over 1 year of 30-gram parts at 10% packing density using HP 3D High Reusability PA 12 material, and the powder reusability ratio recommended by manufacturer. Based on internal testing and public data, HP Jet Fusion 3D 4210 Printing Solution average printing cost-per-part is 65% lower versus the average cost of comparable FDM and SLS printer solutions from $100,000 USD to $300,000 USD on market as of April, 2016 and is 50% lower versus the average cost of comparable SLS printer solutions for $300,000 USD to $450,000 USD. Cost analysis based on: standard solution configuration price, supplies price, and maintenance costs recommended by manufacturer. Cost criteria: printing 1.4 full build chambers of parts per day/5 days per week over 1 year of 30-gram parts at 10% packing density on fast print mode using HP 3D High Reusability PA 12 material, and the powder reusability ratio recommended by manufacturer. So, sounds like we're talking something on the order of 50-150k per year or so if you're planning to use this frequently. Definitely not a consumer-focused solution.
- notananthem 9y agoFull color is nice but it always depends how colorization is handled. If you ever have to go into 3rd party apps to "paint" colors on, its not worth it. It needs to be able to handle coloring from the exported file ie color it in solidworks or creo or whatever.
- ww520 9y agoHow much is the ink?
- ethagknight 9y agoInk? Relax, no ink! Just HP Proprietary Multi-Agents (source: HP video on youtube link below)
- amjaeger 9y agoI order material cartridges for my lab's Stratasys Connex 500. There are a lot of different materials at a lot of different pricepoints... but generally $125 - $250/kg of material. I would expect HP to price in that range.
- aurizon 9y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXntl3ff5tc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXntl3ff5tc
- convivialdingo 9y agoGood overview. Thanks!
- dolguldur 9y agoIt's funny how I and other people see hp and immediately think of bad business practices that lead to a bad experience with the brand. Relates to the concept that you optimize for what you measure. Not factoring in that screwing over customers will have some impact down the line is also like some sort of debt (as in tech debt). It's like long term brand debt.
- pacificmint 9y agoYou seem to imply that they don't realize something might have impact in the future (because it's not what they measure). It's also possible that they are very aware of it, but just don't care. The modern corporate system, especially in the US, is set up to incentivize favoring short term results over the long term. If it will make their numbers look better this quarter at the cost of damaging the brand down the road, unfortunately many company will choose that path, even knowingly.
- alexbeloi 9y agoThe corporation is run by people and people favor short term results when they expect to be in their position for a short period. Just as it's far less common for the regular working (wo)man to stay at the same company for decades, it's less common for CEOs to do so as well.[0] If a CEO/president expects (through loyalty/control of the board, or otherwise) to be at the company for a long time, they will naturally make long(er) term decisions. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hewlett-Packard_executive_leadership https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hewlett-Packard_execut...
- Lxr 9y agoI believe this is why companies often go downhill after the original founders leave and “professional management” takes over - founders generally take a less short-sighted view.
- bluedino 9y ago>> see hp and immediately think of bad business practices I see terrible, bloated drivers
- borgchick 9y agoWhile I am sure the HP solution will run circles around this, in both quality and in price, but XYZ Printing has introduced a (low cost) inkjet+FDM 3D printer. Basically it prints a layer with the FDM printer, then prints a layer of color with the inkjet. Now, it seems pretty hard to find any good reviews on Youtube about it. Obviously their marketing material shows it printing fabulous vibrant prints, but the "3D printing professor" did a review of it, and he ran into a whole slew of issues. This is his success video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFxKxdGvV0w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFxKxdGvV0w Interesting stuff, but looks to be at the infancy stage.
- leggomylibro 9y agoHa, if you think filament is expensive NOW, just wait until you have an HP printer! That said, they do provide some interesting cost values which make it sound like this will probably be in the ballpark of low 6-figures: >1. Based on internal and third-party testing for HP Jet Fusion 580 and 5403D Printers, printing time is a fraction of the time of the printing times of comparable plastic fused deposition modeling (FDM), stereolithography (SLA), and material jetting solutions from $20,000 USD to $120,000 USD on market as of June, 2017. Testing variables for the HP JetFusion 580 3D Printer: Part quantity: 1 full build chamber of parts from HP Jet Fusion 3D at 10% of packing density versus same number of parts on above-mentioned competitive devices; Part size: 30 cm3; Layer thickness: .08 mm/0.003 inches. Competitor testing variables are comparable. >2. Based on internal testing and simulation, HP Jet Fusion 3D average printing time is up to 10 times faster than average printing time of comparable fused deposition modeling (FDM) and selective laser sintering (SLS) printer solutions from $100,000 USD to $300,000 USD on market as of April, 2016. Testing variables for the HP Jet Fusion 4210/4200/3200 Printing Solutions: Part quantity: 1 full build chamber of parts from HP Jet Fusion 3D at 20% of packing density versus same number of parts on above-mentioned competitive devices; Part size: 30 grams; Layer thickness: 0.08 mm/0.003 inches. >3. Based on internal testing and public data, HP Jet Fusion 3D average printing cost per part is half the average cost of comparable FDM & SLS printer solutions from $100,000 USD to $300,000 USD on market as of April, 2016. Cost analysis based on: standard solution configuration price, supplies price, and maintenance costs recommended by manufacturer. Cost criteria: printing 1 build chamber per day/5 days per week over 1 year of 30-gram parts at 10% packing density using HP 3D High Reusability PA 12 material, and the powder reusability ratio recommended by manufacturer. Based on internal testing and public data, HP Jet Fusion 3D 4210 Printing Solution average printing cost-per-part is 65% lower versus the average cost of comparable FDM and SLS printer solutions from $100,000 USD to $300,000 USD on market as of April, 2016 and is 50% lower versus the average cost of comparable SLS printer solutions for $300,000 USD to $450,000 USD. Cost analysis based on: standard solution configuration price, supplies price, and maintenance costs recommended by manufacturer. Cost criteria: printing 1.4 full build chambers of parts per day/5 days per week over 1 year of 30-gram parts at 10% packing density on fast print mode using HP 3D High Reusability PA 12 material, and the powder reusability ratio recommended by manufacturer.
- projectileboy 9y agoIt looks amazing, but at this point, why would I trust HP?
- digi_owl 9y agoFollowing some links around i get the impression that this is using laser sintering.
- zwieback 9y agoIt's a powder bed, like laser sintering, but the melt energy comes from IR light sources. The parts of the bed that were printed on melt under the lights, the other parts stay powdery and can be recycled.
- digi_owl 9y agoHeh, i knew i should have left the laser part out. Anyways, would be interesting to see this way of doing 3d printing find its way to the hobbyist market at some point.
- zengid 9y agoSorry to be that guy but their inspirational video to 'reinvent making' feels like it was made by Erlich Bachman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWOGbu5BcT0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWOGbu5BcT0
- ChuckMcM 9y agoInteresting to see HP jumping in here. They certainly have the positioning/deposit/chemistry expertise to make this work. I would love to be able to print things on one at the local copy/printing center, but I'm wondering if they have moved enough down into the price point to displace what the current SLA shops offer. And while I've posted things to Thingaverse there is an interesting opportunity for a curated source of soft 'things' that you could order from a local service bureau. Shapeways is nice but it doesn't seem quite there yet.
- dubbel 9y agoThey are already in the 3D printer market, see https://youtu.be/F2fIOBtdojY https://youtu.be/F2fIOBtdojY from 2016. Research and development go way back of course. The new thing is the color. Disclaimer: I worked at HP in the past.
- ryen 9y agoFingers crossed we don't see "PC Load Material" errors..
- glup 9y agoHello HP, Let's work out the bugs with the 2D printers before we move on to 3D. Thx.
- stevespang 9y agoThe HP corporate fine print: 1. Based on internal and third-party testing for HP Jet Fusion 580 and 5403D Printers, printing time is a fraction of the time of the printing times of comparable plastic fused deposition modeling (FDM), stereolithography (SLA), and material jetting solutions from $20,000 USD to $120,000 USD on market as of June, 2017. Testing variables for the HP JetFusion 580 3D Printer: Part quantity: 1 full build chamber of parts from HP Jet Fusion 3D at 10% of packing density versus same number of parts on above-mentioned competitive devices; Part size: 30 cm3; Layer thickness: .08 mm/0.003 inches. Competitor testing variables are comparable. 2. Based on internal testing and simulation, HP Jet Fusion 3D average printing time is up to 10 times faster than average printing time of comparable fused deposition modeling (FDM) and selective laser sintering (SLS) printer solutions from $100,000 USD to $300,000 USD on market as of April, 2016. Testing variables for the HP Jet Fusion 4210/4200/3200 Printing Solutions: Part quantity: 1 full build chamber of parts from HP Jet Fusion 3D at 20% of packing density versus same number of parts on above-mentioned competitive devices; Part size: 30 grams; Layer thickness: 0.08 mm/0.003 inches. 3. Based on internal testing and public data, HP Jet Fusion 3D average printing cost per part is half the average cost of comparable FDM & SLS printer solutions from $100,000 USD to $300,000 USD on market as of April, 2016. Cost analysis based on: standard solution configuration price, supplies price, and maintenance costs recommended by manufacturer. Cost criteria: printing 1 build chamber per day/5 days per week over 1 year of 30-gram parts at 10% packing density using HP 3D High Reusability PA 12 material, and the powder reusability ratio recommended by manufacturer. Based on internal testing and public data, HP Jet Fusion 3D 4210 Printing Solution average printing cost-per-part is 65% lower versus the average cost of comparable FDM and SLS printer solutions from $100,000 USD to $300,000 USD on market as of April, 2016 and is 50% lower versus the average cost of comparable SLS printer solutions for $300,000 USD to $450,000 USD. Cost analysis based on: standard solution configuration price, supplies price, and maintenance costs recommended by manufacturer. Cost criteria: printing 1.4 full build chambers of parts per day/5 days per week over 1 year of 30-gram parts at 10% packing density on fast print mode using HP 3D High Reusability PA 12 material, and the powder reusability ratio recommended by manufacturer. © Copyright 2018 HP Development Company, L.P. The information contained herein is subject to change without notice. Drum roll please . . . . and the price IS: "These new 3D printers are available today for order and will be shipping in the second half of the year, and have a price range beginning in the $50,000s and going up to “the low hundred thousand dollars” mark, noted Pastor."
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- yuhong 9y agoThinking about it, it probably won't cost that much more to officially support basic PCB printing in almost all their printers, right?
- mrmondo 9y agoVery neat idea - but trust HP to incorporate a disposable, proprietary ink system with a product like this. Reminds me of the infographic comparing the cost of HP's black ink to other liquids, the next most expensive shown (at half the price of the HP black ink) was human blood: https://thumbnails-visually.netdna-ssl.com/ink-costs-more-than-human-blood_50290ced00807_w1500.jpg https://thumbnails-visually.netdna-ssl.com/ink-costs-more-th...
- foxylad 9y agoI recently bought/built a really cheap 3D printer to see what it could do, and I'm finding it more useful and easier to use than I anticipated. I'd say it is the 3D equivalent of the dot-matrix printer, and this HP beast is the 3D equivalent of the first colour laser printers. I think 3D printers will be a much smaller market than paper printers, because the number of things you need printed is much less than the number of pages we (used to) need printed. And although this HP machine looks amazing at first sight, lets look at the specs: it does about three times the resolution of my 3D printer - and colour - for A THOUSAND times the price. (Anet A8 0.2mm resolution for $200; Jet Fusion 0.08mm resolution for $x00,000 according to comments below). OK, colour is cool, but you could employ an artist to hand-paint your creations for a tiny fraction of this cost. I get that this is first to market, but I think they are missing an opportunity to price lower and build mindshare while they learn the lessons required to build the cash cow: a consumer machine that does twice the resolution for ten times the price. And this needs to happen fast - Brother won't allow HP anywhere near the lead they got with laser printers last time around.
- shiven 9y agoNot touching an HP printer with a barge pole. Fuck you HP.
- dang 9y agoPlease don't post unsubstantive comments here.
- shiven 9y agoMerely sharing a strongly held opinion here. HP is the cancer of modern printing - anyone who crossed paths with their “region locked” printers/cartridges - can attest to that statement.
- dang 9y agoYes, stating a "strongly held opinion" without explaining why is one kind of unsubstantive comment we don't need here. Adding information, like you did in this reply, makes it better. Adding name-calling, like you did above, makes it worse.