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> These kinds of coordinating, organizing, and choreographing tasks are more efficiently handled by machines than by humans. That's an assumption they didn't f

by bkor 9y ago

> These kinds of coordinating, organizing, and choreographing tasks are more efficiently handled by machines than by humans. That's an assumption they didn't fact check. According to the terminal itself ECT Delta terminal in Rotterdam was the first automated terminal, see http://www.ect.nl/en/node/205 http://www.ect.nl/en/node/205 (in Dutch). This terminal was built in 1985. This terminal was always slower than any human operated terminal. They did invest into technological upgrades. Since ECT Delta they also built newer terminals. Also for those the automation isn't just magically quicker, cheaper or has a higher availability than a human operated terminal. Another thing to be aware of is that one bug can stop the entire terminal. With humans they work around it (more flexible). Such problems have occurred often enough. Without even a bug, the Maersk cyber attack also had quite the impact. For US, the main problem is unions. The way that unions operate in the US vs most countries in Europe is vastly different. Union in US seems to be about being powerful, not so much about doing what is right or makes sense. They have way more of an impact on any productivity than calls for automation.

crdoconnor 9y ago
>For US, the main problem is unions. The way that unions operate in the US vs most countries in Europe is vastly different. Union in US seems to be about being powerful, not so much about doing what is right or makes sense. They have way more of an impact on any productivity than calls for automation. The culture of management in America has historically been much, much more confrontational than in Europe and unions reacted to that accordingly. European management can be confrontational (especially in the UK) but it still relatively tame by comparison with the US - there hasn't ever, to my knowledge, been an aerial bombing raid delivered on a strike in Europe, for instance, whereas that has happened in West Virginia.
- the-dude 9y ago
  Aerial bombing raid? What? Care to give a link?
  - hartror 9y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain
- adventured 9y ago
  > European management can be confrontational (especially in the UK) but it still relatively tame by comparison with the US ... for instance, whereas that has happened in West Virginia. Your point would actually have a chance of standing up, if you provided recent examples that prove a common trend of using violence against unions. As it is, you provided zero evidence. US management confrontation is extremely tame today. All you need to do is look at the lawsuits filed against US employers by their workers, and the nature of the claims in question (overwhelmingly they're discrimination based, violence is almost non-existent in the US work place). You're using a one-off example - Blair Mountain was a century ago - about a very large subject body. Using violence against union workers today is a really fast way to end up arrested by the FBI or state police.
  - crdoconnor 9y ago
    These days the threat is more muted on both sides, but historical precedent still drives the culture and relationship between the two sides today. The underlying hostility is still stronger than in Europe. For instance, Wisconsin Attorney General Jeffrey Cox advocated the use of live ammunition against the ~100,000 people protesting against the 2011 Wisconsin Act 10 while a deputy prosecutor advocated the use of a violent "false flag" attack to garner sympathy. As far as I am aware this kind of thing does not happen in Western Europe.
  - maxxxxx 9y ago
    Maybe they don't shoot people anymore but US employers put up a lot of pressure against workers who want to unionize. When in Germany I never heard of such a thing. It was widely accepted that unions are part of the economy.
  - notfromhere 9y ago
    Float the idea of a union and Walmart will literally shut down a store. Government and corporate attitude to unions has made American unions resistant to any change because they've been screwed over so many times. Tennessee went on a super strong anti-union campaign during the VW vote even when the company itself wanted a union to exist and red states keep passing initiatives like "right to work" laws that weaken unions or lessen their ability to advocate for workers. Unions have been under siege for decades, so it's very obvious why they're not interested in compromising with management when they lose in every single compromise to worker interests.
mc32 9y ago
1985 was a long time ago. Despite upgrades, I wonder if building from scratch with automation-first at the forefront, would automated ports not be more efficient of they didn't have to defer to legacy technologies? Automation-first, from ships to containers to ports to docks to distribution.

by bkor 9y ago

crdoconnor 9y ago

>For US, the main problem is unions. The way that unions operate in the US vs most countries in Europe is vastly different. Union in US seems to be about being powerful, not so much about doing what is right or makes sense. They have way more of an impact on any productivity than calls for automation. The culture of management in America has historically been much, much more confrontational than in Europe and unions reacted to that accordingly. European management can be confrontational (especially in the UK) but it still relatively tame by comparison with the US - there hasn't ever, to my knowledge, been an aerial bombing raid delivered on a strike in Europe, for instance, whereas that has happened in West Virginia.

the-dude 9y ago
Aerial bombing raid? What? Care to give a link?
- hartror 9y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain
adventured 9y ago
> European management can be confrontational (especially in the UK) but it still relatively tame by comparison with the US ... for instance, whereas that has happened in West Virginia. Your point would actually have a chance of standing up, if you provided recent examples that prove a common trend of using violence against unions. As it is, you provided zero evidence. US management confrontation is extremely tame today. All you need to do is look at the lawsuits filed against US employers by their workers, and the nature of the claims in question (overwhelmingly they're discrimination based, violence is almost non-existent in the US work place). You're using a one-off example - Blair Mountain was a century ago - about a very large subject body. Using violence against union workers today is a really fast way to end up arrested by the FBI or state police.
- crdoconnor 9y ago
  These days the threat is more muted on both sides, but historical precedent still drives the culture and relationship between the two sides today. The underlying hostility is still stronger than in Europe. For instance, Wisconsin Attorney General Jeffrey Cox advocated the use of live ammunition against the ~100,000 people protesting against the 2011 Wisconsin Act 10 while a deputy prosecutor advocated the use of a violent "false flag" attack to garner sympathy. As far as I am aware this kind of thing does not happen in Western Europe.
- maxxxxx 9y ago
  Maybe they don't shoot people anymore but US employers put up a lot of pressure against workers who want to unionize. When in Germany I never heard of such a thing. It was widely accepted that unions are part of the economy.
- notfromhere 9y ago
  Float the idea of a union and Walmart will literally shut down a store. Government and corporate attitude to unions has made American unions resistant to any change because they've been screwed over so many times. Tennessee went on a super strong anti-union campaign during the VW vote even when the company itself wanted a union to exist and red states keep passing initiatives like "right to work" laws that weaken unions or lessen their ability to advocate for workers. Unions have been under siege for decades, so it's very obvious why they're not interested in compromising with management when they lose in every single compromise to worker interests.

mc32 9y ago

1985 was a long time ago. Despite upgrades, I wonder if building from scratch with automation-first at the forefront, would automated ports not be more efficient of they didn't have to defer to legacy technologies? Automation-first, from ships to containers to ports to docks to distribution.