8 ms·

Global Latinists

38 points by throwaway7645 9y ago

Jun8 9y ago
Fascinating article! I wish a similar change had come over Ancient Greek studies, too. My experience was that intro classes was an impatient way to half-read Platon. I once asked our instructor, a TA who was wrapping up his PhD in Classics, how to say “It’s raining” in A. Greek and he didn’t have a clue, such a question never occurred to him. And studying later texts, such as the Souda was not even considered.
- thaumasiotes 9y ago
  > such a question never occurred to him This question is basically just "what's the verb for 'rain'?". The syntax is exactly what you'd expect. As it happens, the word is very well documented ( http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Du(%2Fw&highlight=rain http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%... ), but it's not obvious that your TA should have been reading about rain. You know the words you use frequently. If you asked someone who specialized in the Eleusinian mysteries, which involved the command "rain!" given to the sky by the participants, they would have had no trouble telling you how to say "it's raining". If you asked someone who had been reading the Iliad, they'd be able to tell you all kinds of words for spears, fighting, armor, walls, and viscera, but rain might not come up as frequently.
tempodox 9y ago
For those wondering, the missing ALF web site URL: http://www.academialatinitatifovendae.org http://www.academialatinitatifovendae.org I didn't know this exists. Funny how reading all this Latin instills a feeling of home. Have I been a Roman in a previous life? But then, I'm not a believer in reincarnation.
- ky738 9y ago
  Maybe because your native language has roots in Latin? I know Spanish and Portuguese, and reading Latin gives me a familiar feeling.
  - scardine 9y ago
    Even English is considered rooted in Latin because it borrows like 70% the vocabulary from French - although the original Germanic structure was kept.
mhd 9y ago
I've always wanted to get into Latin, and my current plan is getting through "Lingua Latina"[1], a book written in Latin and heavily recommended by others. I do wonder about a "global Latin community", though. My personal experience with Latin "speakers" has been tinged by an atmosphere of Elitism. Not just about knowing the language, but the whole curriculum of literature. A bit like when you're thrown into a club of people quoting Star Wars all the time, just a bit more high-falutin'. Comes with centuries of "classical education" being a hallmark of upper class schooling. Compare that with the basic concept of languages like Esperanto... [1]: https://www.amazon.com/Lingua-Latina-Illustrata-Pars-Familia/dp/1585104205/ https://www.amazon.com/Lingua-Latina-Illustrata-Pars-Familia...
- aestetix 9y ago
  I'm on chapter 20 of Lingua Latina. I think it is very well done. I did study latin in school formally for four years, so it's more of a refresher, but it teaches some concepts I hadn't encountered before. That said, it can be difficult at times, especially around Chapter 16. I would recommend picking up a copy of Wheelock's* as well, which is much more focused on grammar and structure. You might want to either go through Wheelock's and LL together, or tackle Wheelock's first and then LL second. * https://www.amazon.de/Wheelocks-Latin-7th/dp/0061997226/ https://www.amazon.de/Wheelocks-Latin-7th/dp/0061997226/
dghf 9y ago
The mention of the Catholic Church's use of Latin made we wonder: if you're going to resurrect Latin as an international language, which pronunciation are you going to use -- the reconstructed classical pronunciation of Cicero et al., or the Italian-influenced pronunciation of Church Latin? For example, Caesar's veni, vidi, vici would be pronounced something like "wainey, weedy, weeky" in the former but "vainy, veedy, veechy" in the latter. And then there's the traditional English pronunciation, which assumes that Latin is pronounced more or less the same as English: e.g., mater is made to rhyme with "later".
- cafard 9y ago
  Church Latin is curiously silent. There are a lot of Tridentine Masses out there: but one doesn't really hear a lot of the prayers in them, does one? In the Novus Ordo Masses, the prayers are audible, and the congregation takes part, but there aren't many such celebrated, that I know of.
  - dghf 9y ago
    To be honest, most of my knowledge of Church Latin comes from things like the Agnus Dei sung by the choir during an otherwise English-language Mass.
  - gumby 9y ago
    That is due to a shift in 1962 (although some irredentists, primarily in Europe, do still perform services in Latin). Church latin was the working language of the catholic church. Services switched to Latin (from Greek) around 200, but as the church spread through Europe and the middle east, services were often in vernacular. Since this led to a lot of local interpretation and variance (many -- perhaps most? -- priests were illiterate at the time) by 1000, I believe, the popes started insisting that the priests use Latin and turn their back on the audience.
    - cafard 9y ago
      Since about 1988, after the publication of Ecclesia Dei, the Tridentine Mass has made a considerable comeback. In the Archdiocese of Washington, there are three parishes that offer a Tridentine Mass, but only the cathedral has a Novus Ordo Mass.
osullivj 9y ago
Amo, amas, amat, amamus, amatis, amant :)
cafard 9y ago
A couple of resources: http://frcoulter.com/latin/ http://frcoulter.com/latin/ ; https://areena.yle.fi/1-1931339 https://areena.yle.fi/1-1931339. Also, I thought Latin: History of a World Language by Juergen Leonhardt, an most interesting book.
gumby 9y ago
> As soon as the nineteenth-century method of analyzing the languages without ever using them started to take over, Classics immediately started to die. This sounds absurd. At my high school‡ Latin and Greek were living languages, and we studied them, as we studied French, as a way of reading literature and understanding a culture distant yet related to ours. Unless you were an actual linguist, what would be the point of studying a language without using it? ‡ which was, I admit, a "Latin School"
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
ggm 9y ago
Surely cicero was capable of speaking demotic, and writing Katharevousa? The implication that Shakspear spoke in meter feels false. Poets rhyme for amusement, but can also just "say" pass the salt and mean it non-ironically. You can ask for the nearest coffee shop in Latin without using ciceronian style, and its good latin. Spending the mental energy to think it may be going beyond the pale.
senorsmile 9y ago
I'm probably a little late in posting here. If any of you are in the Seattle area and interested, come check out the Latin meetup: https://www.meetup.com/eastside-latin/ https://www.meetup.com/eastside-latin/.

38 points by throwaway7645 9y ago

Jun8 9y ago

Fascinating article! I wish a similar change had come over Ancient Greek studies, too. My experience was that intro classes was an impatient way to half-read Platon. I once asked our instructor, a TA who was wrapping up his PhD in Classics, how to say “It’s raining” in A. Greek and he didn’t have a clue, such a question never occurred to him. And studying later texts, such as the Souda was not even considered.

thaumasiotes 9y ago
> such a question never occurred to him This question is basically just "what's the verb for 'rain'?". The syntax is exactly what you'd expect. As it happens, the word is very well documented ( http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Du(%2Fw&highlight=rain http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%... ), but it's not obvious that your TA should have been reading about rain. You know the words you use frequently. If you asked someone who specialized in the Eleusinian mysteries, which involved the command "rain!" given to the sky by the participants, they would have had no trouble telling you how to say "it's raining". If you asked someone who had been reading the Iliad, they'd be able to tell you all kinds of words for spears, fighting, armor, walls, and viscera, but rain might not come up as frequently.

tempodox 9y ago

For those wondering, the missing ALF web site URL: http://www.academialatinitatifovendae.org http://www.academialatinitatifovendae.org I didn't know this exists. Funny how reading all this Latin instills a feeling of home. Have I been a Roman in a previous life? But then, I'm not a believer in reincarnation.

ky738 9y ago
Maybe because your native language has roots in Latin? I know Spanish and Portuguese, and reading Latin gives me a familiar feeling.
- scardine 9y ago
  Even English is considered rooted in Latin because it borrows like 70% the vocabulary from French - although the original Germanic structure was kept.

mhd 9y ago

I've always wanted to get into Latin, and my current plan is getting through "Lingua Latina"[1], a book written in Latin and heavily recommended by others. I do wonder about a "global Latin community", though. My personal experience with Latin "speakers" has been tinged by an atmosphere of Elitism. Not just about knowing the language, but the whole curriculum of literature. A bit like when you're thrown into a club of people quoting Star Wars all the time, just a bit more high-falutin'. Comes with centuries of "classical education" being a hallmark of upper class schooling. Compare that with the basic concept of languages like Esperanto... [1]: https://www.amazon.com/Lingua-Latina-Illustrata-Pars-Familia/dp/1585104205/ https://www.amazon.com/Lingua-Latina-Illustrata-Pars-Familia...

aestetix 9y ago
I'm on chapter 20 of Lingua Latina. I think it is very well done. I did study latin in school formally for four years, so it's more of a refresher, but it teaches some concepts I hadn't encountered before. That said, it can be difficult at times, especially around Chapter 16. I would recommend picking up a copy of Wheelock's* as well, which is much more focused on grammar and structure. You might want to either go through Wheelock's and LL together, or tackle Wheelock's first and then LL second. * https://www.amazon.de/Wheelocks-Latin-7th/dp/0061997226/ https://www.amazon.de/Wheelocks-Latin-7th/dp/0061997226/

dghf 9y ago

The mention of the Catholic Church's use of Latin made we wonder: if you're going to resurrect Latin as an international language, which pronunciation are you going to use -- the reconstructed classical pronunciation of Cicero et al., or the Italian-influenced pronunciation of Church Latin? For example, Caesar's veni, vidi, vici would be pronounced something like "wainey, weedy, weeky" in the former but "vainy, veedy, veechy" in the latter. And then there's the traditional English pronunciation, which assumes that Latin is pronounced more or less the same as English: e.g., mater is made to rhyme with "later".

cafard 9y ago
Church Latin is curiously silent. There are a lot of Tridentine Masses out there: but one doesn't really hear a lot of the prayers in them, does one? In the Novus Ordo Masses, the prayers are audible, and the congregation takes part, but there aren't many such celebrated, that I know of.
- dghf 9y ago
  To be honest, most of my knowledge of Church Latin comes from things like the Agnus Dei sung by the choir during an otherwise English-language Mass.
- gumby 9y ago
  That is due to a shift in 1962 (although some irredentists, primarily in Europe, do still perform services in Latin). Church latin was the working language of the catholic church. Services switched to Latin (from Greek) around 200, but as the church spread through Europe and the middle east, services were often in vernacular. Since this led to a lot of local interpretation and variance (many -- perhaps most? -- priests were illiterate at the time) by 1000, I believe, the popes started insisting that the priests use Latin and turn their back on the audience.
  - cafard 9y ago
    Since about 1988, after the publication of Ecclesia Dei, the Tridentine Mass has made a considerable comeback. In the Archdiocese of Washington, there are three parishes that offer a Tridentine Mass, but only the cathedral has a Novus Ordo Mass.

osullivj 9y ago

Amo, amas, amat, amamus, amatis, amant :)

cafard 9y ago

A couple of resources: http://frcoulter.com/latin/ http://frcoulter.com/latin/ ; https://areena.yle.fi/1-1931339 https://areena.yle.fi/1-1931339. Also, I thought Latin: History of a World Language by Juergen Leonhardt, an most interesting book.

gumby 9y ago

> As soon as the nineteenth-century method of analyzing the languages without ever using them started to take over, Classics immediately started to die. This sounds absurd. At my high school‡ Latin and Greek were living languages, and we studied them, as we studied French, as a way of reading literature and understanding a culture distant yet related to ours. Unless you were an actual linguist, what would be the point of studying a language without using it? ‡ which was, I admit, a "Latin School"

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

ggm 9y ago

Surely cicero was capable of speaking demotic, and writing Katharevousa? The implication that Shakspear spoke in meter feels false. Poets rhyme for amusement, but can also just "say" pass the salt and mean it non-ironically. You can ask for the nearest coffee shop in Latin without using ciceronian style, and its good latin. Spending the mental energy to think it may be going beyond the pale.

senorsmile 9y ago

I'm probably a little late in posting here. If any of you are in the Seattle area and interested, come check out the Latin meetup: https://www.meetup.com/eastside-latin/ https://www.meetup.com/eastside-latin/.