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This is a very common trope, but it fails to address what might be the cause, rather than the mere correlation, of age-driven conservatism: imminent mortality.

This is a very common trope, but it fails to address what might be the cause, rather than the mere correlation, of age-driven conservatism: imminent mortality. If you're 50 years in to an 80 year lifespan, it's more difficult to imagine starting over, with reduced vigor, to revamp your thinking and lifestyle. If there is essentially no increased risk of next-year mortality with age, and if we all have the stamina and energy of 20-year-olds, then there truly are no old dogs. Also, I'd really like to hear this "tendency of society to become very conservative" fleshed out. I think you meant "as average age goes up," but I'm not sure why "society" gets brought into it. Aren't we pointing to a tendency of individuals to become more conservative as they age?

forkerenok 9y ago
That's a very interesting perspective! Any particular reads inspired it? Though I think "imminent mortality" is not the only thing at the foundation of age-driven conservatism. I think there is also tendency to follow paths of least resistance (energy conservatism): learning/discovering new ways of doing things comes with more friction (if one does not enjoy the learning/wandering process). EDIT: I just realized that the two points are really intertwined. Time conservatism is closely related to energy conservatism and cannot be regarded in isolation. (forgive the awkward terms)
- theothermkn 9y ago
  If anything, I formulated it–I'm sure it's not original–as a reaction against Kuhn's Structure of Scientific Revolutions and its nearly universal adoption by the worst kind of smug, vocal startuppity Silicon Valley types, who apply it to every objection to their newest pet projects. It just seems obvious to me how the fear and resentment of an imminent decline and demise transfers into one of the few places in an older person's life where they still have power, the dinner table and the voting booth. Aging is degrading and humiliating, and you're supposed to wear it with grace and dignity. And then the "news" guy on the conservative channel tells you about all the mistakes that kids and immigrants are making... Presto! Instant "conservative" harking back to an invented Golden Age. > ...if one does not enjoy the learning/wandering process... Or, if one does not perceive that the investment has time to pay off.
  - marchenko 9y ago
    The Book Algorithms to Live By describes some research which found that it is not chronological age, but rather one's position on the explore/exploit curve that drives the apparent conservatism of old age. So a 70 year old who expects to live 50 more years might be considerably more novelty-seeking than a 70 year old who expects to live 20 more years, because the first has a longer interval within which to exploit the benefits of any useful finds.
    - theothermkn 9y ago
      Hey! Thank you for your post! I was pretty sure I hadn't formulated something new, and it's great to have a new book recommendation! The result you mention seems intuitively correct, and meshes with my own experience. The career changes that I'll consider in my 40s are definitely not the same ones I'd have considered in my 20s. There's no time!
- jjoonathan 9y ago
  It's a general result. Same reason why target date funds shift to more conservative assets as they approach their due date. Recovery time hedges risk, the absence of recovery time promotes risk aversion.
toyg 9y ago
The idea does have some basis in empirical truth: in democratic systems, older groups are more reliable voters than any other group. As such, they are incessantly pandered to, and eventually society shifts. There was also a recent study suggesting a link between successful efforts to reduce birth rates in China and their higher political stability compared to neighboring countries, because the young bring instability while the old like the status quo.
pmoriarty 9y ago
"If you're 50 years in to an 80 year lifespan, it's more difficult to imagine starting over, with reduced vigor, to revamp your thinking and lifestyle." It's not a disinclination to starting over that fuels (social) conservatism, but rather a yearning for an older, simpler, "more virtuous" time (one often that never actually existed, except in the imagination). This is how you wind up with old people wearing clothes that were fashionable in their youth, still behaving in "old fashioned" ways, still consuming media from bygone eras, etc. Not that such behaviors and tastes necessarily make you a conservative, nor is this restricted to just old people. Some young people also yearn for the past, and enjoy affecting styles of dress and consuming media from bygone eras. But the cause of such sentiments is shared with conservatives: that is, it's a rejection of modernity and a yearning for a mythical past. People who are "living in the past", as it were, or wanting to re-create the past in the present aren't interested in reinventing themselves or embracing the present or the future. If anything, living for longer is likely to exacerbate this. The feeling of nostalgia and yearning for an older time is likely to get worse, and the inability to cope with the modernity is only likely to increase (barring breakthroughs in psychology, sociology, neurology, or psychopharmacology that might make such coping with and accepting of the chaotic and ever-accelerating present/future easier).
- stevenh 9y ago
  All of the older folks I know are stubbornly liberal.
  - croon 9y ago
    > Democrats: 27% of Millennials and 21% of Gen Xers identified as liberal Democrats or Democratic-leaning independents. > Nearly a third of Boomers (31%) and 36% of Silents described themselves as conservative Republicans or Republican leaners, which also is higher than in the past. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/03/20/a-wider-partisan-and-ideological-gap-between-younger-older-generations/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/03/20/a-wider-part...
- theothermkn 9y ago
  I dunno. It seems basically game-theoretic to me. The cost to a youth of adopting a "conservative" viewpoint is being outmoded for the rest of their lives. The cost to the elderly of keeping up with new technologies, trends, theories, and so on has to at least involve invalidating their lives and behavior, so far, and all for little or no real payout given the duress of aging and short remaining years. In other words, I'm hypothesizing that nostalgia is the effect of the underlying cause, "deterioration with age and short time horizon for payout." You're going to die, soon. May as well be comfortable. As with a lot of tropes, we're having trouble nailing down terms, too. As you allude, we've at least meant a few different things by "conservative;" 1) social conservatism, 2) technological nostalgia, and 3) scientific conservatism. This seems to be one of those memes (I use the word deliberately as a "persistent mental structure or coding," separate from the term "idea.") that survives by coding multiple actual ideas. Not that you're doing the following, but reciters of the meme can always switch between ideas/fields when the current case becomes problematic. Societies don't become conservative? Well, what about Kuhn/Planck and scientific conservatism? Oh, scientists do actually adopt new theories late in their careers? What about people who restore classic cars? People buy new cars late in life? Well, societies become more socially conservative as the population ages. And so on. One final point that, again, you're not doing right now, but I find ironic and amusing. Critics of life extension will oft lament that "mortality makes us human," and that we'll become inhuman monsters if we routinely live to be 1000. Then, in the next breath, they'll then insist that we'll behave exactly as if we died at 80 when it comes to things like conservatism, or reproduction, or career choices. But that's just the amusing part; the ironic part is that they'll do this at just about any age!
joe_the_user 9y ago
This is a very common trope, but it fails to address what might be the cause, rather than the mere correlation, of age-driven conservatism: imminent mortality. Well, the main factor I'd say is that being older involves having accumulated a lot "functional" opinions and solutions to problems. That is, a lot of approaches that may not be absolutely optimal but work (and which would require a lot of time to work out alternatives to - in the fashion it takes a lot of time to train a neural network). So basically, it is extremely difficult for those who have a fully functional coping strategy to go back to "not knowing anything" and relearn. I mean, while most people are more flexible at twenty than at fifty, most people are more flexible at ten than at twenty and it would be hard to revisit the "personality choices" that happened at ten when you are twenty even when mortality is a ways a way.

forkerenok 9y ago

That's a very interesting perspective! Any particular reads inspired it? Though I think "imminent mortality" is not the only thing at the foundation of age-driven conservatism. I think there is also tendency to follow paths of least resistance (energy conservatism): learning/discovering new ways of doing things comes with more friction (if one does not enjoy the learning/wandering process). EDIT: I just realized that the two points are really intertwined. Time conservatism is closely related to energy conservatism and cannot be regarded in isolation. (forgive the awkward terms)

theothermkn 9y ago
If anything, I formulated it–I'm sure it's not original–as a reaction against Kuhn's Structure of Scientific Revolutions and its nearly universal adoption by the worst kind of smug, vocal startuppity Silicon Valley types, who apply it to every objection to their newest pet projects. It just seems obvious to me how the fear and resentment of an imminent decline and demise transfers into one of the few places in an older person's life where they still have power, the dinner table and the voting booth. Aging is degrading and humiliating, and you're supposed to wear it with grace and dignity. And then the "news" guy on the conservative channel tells you about all the mistakes that kids and immigrants are making... Presto! Instant "conservative" harking back to an invented Golden Age. > ...if one does not enjoy the learning/wandering process... Or, if one does not perceive that the investment has time to pay off.
- marchenko 9y ago
  The Book Algorithms to Live By describes some research which found that it is not chronological age, but rather one's position on the explore/exploit curve that drives the apparent conservatism of old age. So a 70 year old who expects to live 50 more years might be considerably more novelty-seeking than a 70 year old who expects to live 20 more years, because the first has a longer interval within which to exploit the benefits of any useful finds.
  - theothermkn 9y ago
    Hey! Thank you for your post! I was pretty sure I hadn't formulated something new, and it's great to have a new book recommendation! The result you mention seems intuitively correct, and meshes with my own experience. The career changes that I'll consider in my 40s are definitely not the same ones I'd have considered in my 20s. There's no time!
jjoonathan 9y ago
It's a general result. Same reason why target date funds shift to more conservative assets as they approach their due date. Recovery time hedges risk, the absence of recovery time promotes risk aversion.

toyg 9y ago

The idea does have some basis in empirical truth: in democratic systems, older groups are more reliable voters than any other group. As such, they are incessantly pandered to, and eventually society shifts. There was also a recent study suggesting a link between successful efforts to reduce birth rates in China and their higher political stability compared to neighboring countries, because the young bring instability while the old like the status quo.

pmoriarty 9y ago

"If you're 50 years in to an 80 year lifespan, it's more difficult to imagine starting over, with reduced vigor, to revamp your thinking and lifestyle." It's not a disinclination to starting over that fuels (social) conservatism, but rather a yearning for an older, simpler, "more virtuous" time (one often that never actually existed, except in the imagination). This is how you wind up with old people wearing clothes that were fashionable in their youth, still behaving in "old fashioned" ways, still consuming media from bygone eras, etc. Not that such behaviors and tastes necessarily make you a conservative, nor is this restricted to just old people. Some young people also yearn for the past, and enjoy affecting styles of dress and consuming media from bygone eras. But the cause of such sentiments is shared with conservatives: that is, it's a rejection of modernity and a yearning for a mythical past. People who are "living in the past", as it were, or wanting to re-create the past in the present aren't interested in reinventing themselves or embracing the present or the future. If anything, living for longer is likely to exacerbate this. The feeling of nostalgia and yearning for an older time is likely to get worse, and the inability to cope with the modernity is only likely to increase (barring breakthroughs in psychology, sociology, neurology, or psychopharmacology that might make such coping with and accepting of the chaotic and ever-accelerating present/future easier).

stevenh 9y ago
All of the older folks I know are stubbornly liberal.
- croon 9y ago
  > Democrats: 27% of Millennials and 21% of Gen Xers identified as liberal Democrats or Democratic-leaning independents. > Nearly a third of Boomers (31%) and 36% of Silents described themselves as conservative Republicans or Republican leaners, which also is higher than in the past. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/03/20/a-wider-partisan-and-ideological-gap-between-younger-older-generations/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/03/20/a-wider-part...
theothermkn 9y ago
I dunno. It seems basically game-theoretic to me. The cost to a youth of adopting a "conservative" viewpoint is being outmoded for the rest of their lives. The cost to the elderly of keeping up with new technologies, trends, theories, and so on has to at least involve invalidating their lives and behavior, so far, and all for little or no real payout given the duress of aging and short remaining years. In other words, I'm hypothesizing that nostalgia is the effect of the underlying cause, "deterioration with age and short time horizon for payout." You're going to die, soon. May as well be comfortable. As with a lot of tropes, we're having trouble nailing down terms, too. As you allude, we've at least meant a few different things by "conservative;" 1) social conservatism, 2) technological nostalgia, and 3) scientific conservatism. This seems to be one of those memes (I use the word deliberately as a "persistent mental structure or coding," separate from the term "idea.") that survives by coding multiple actual ideas. Not that you're doing the following, but reciters of the meme can always switch between ideas/fields when the current case becomes problematic. Societies don't become conservative? Well, what about Kuhn/Planck and scientific conservatism? Oh, scientists do actually adopt new theories late in their careers? What about people who restore classic cars? People buy new cars late in life? Well, societies become more socially conservative as the population ages. And so on. One final point that, again, you're not doing right now, but I find ironic and amusing. Critics of life extension will oft lament that "mortality makes us human," and that we'll become inhuman monsters if we routinely live to be 1000. Then, in the next breath, they'll then insist that we'll behave exactly as if we died at 80 when it comes to things like conservatism, or reproduction, or career choices. But that's just the amusing part; the ironic part is that they'll do this at just about any age!

joe_the_user 9y ago

This is a very common trope, but it fails to address what might be the cause, rather than the mere correlation, of age-driven conservatism: imminent mortality. Well, the main factor I'd say is that being older involves having accumulated a lot "functional" opinions and solutions to problems. That is, a lot of approaches that may not be absolutely optimal but work (and which would require a lot of time to work out alternatives to - in the fashion it takes a lot of time to train a neural network). So basically, it is extremely difficult for those who have a fully functional coping strategy to go back to "not knowing anything" and relearn. I mean, while most people are more flexible at twenty than at fifty, most people are more flexible at ten than at twenty and it would be hard to revisit the "personality choices" that happened at ten when you are twenty even when mortality is a ways a way.