5 ms·

Creationists? Everyone should jump on challenging carbon dating. If we can measure variance inside of 33 days, and that's extrapolated over a few millions of

by KingOfB 16y ago

Creationists? Everyone should jump on challenging carbon dating. If we can measure variance inside of 33 days, and that's extrapolated over a few millions of years, that could skew the numbers a bit. But I bet the ballpark of neutrino's the sun has put out and will put out stays relatively constant inside of some rotational variance. The output behaving like a sin wave doesn't change things much, but if it's on an incline or decline, that has a huge impact on carbon dating. It seems exciting that we have an observable cause and effect and we don't understand why. That seems like it could be a good treasure chest of knowledge right there!

api 16y ago
Yeah, true, but I still predict the creationists will be all over it. But you could add much wider error bars to carbon dating and it still wouldn't support creationism. Maybe something 20 million years old is just 7 million. Fine. It's not six thousand.
- KingOfB 16y ago
  I completely agree. I just find it funny that new science appears and everyone's moaning about the impact of the creationists argument!
- Confusion 16y ago
  It's more like: maybe something estimated to be 20.0 million years old (with an error bar of 0.5 million years) should have been estimated to be 19.99 million years old, with the same error bar and hence the same precision, which is still 20.0 million years. And that only makes sense if we weren't talking about carbon dating, which isn't used for those timescales.
apphacker 16y ago
Whatever variation may exist, carbon dating has been independently verified via other dating means such as coral ring formations and dendrochronology. Unless whatever is having an effect on carbon dating also affects these other, unrelated, forms of dating in the exact same way we can expect the variation to be small and not significant enough to upend everything we know. The evidence that our dating mechanisms work is undeniable - tectonic movement, linguistic evidence of language dispersion, physiological changes in species and their geographical distribution, etc etc all happen at predictable rates and all match up with what we know about our dating methods. Really, creationists should be better suited applying their ultra-skepticism at the much larger gaps in evidence and analysis found in their own ideas. The thing about people who value science is that whenever data presents a challenge we have to account for it, unlike the idiot creationists who only embrace data when it agrees with their already pre-conceived ideas.
Confusion 16y ago
If we can measure variance inside of 33 days, and that's extrapolated over a few millions of years, that could skew the numbers a bit. [..] that has a huge impact on carbon dating. No, the effect is very extremely small and this has no impact at all. Lets suppose that: * we measure differences of 1/1000th in decay rates (this is reasonable given the differences the article is based on) * the average variation is 1/1000th, otherwise it would have been detected earlier. * the halflife of C14 is 5000 years (to make calculations easy) * we are determining the age of something 20000 years old (carbon dating is only used for ages in that order of magnitude). * the decay formula is y = x(1/2)^(t/tau), where y is the amount of C14 you will measure after t years, tau is the halflife in years and x is the initial amount of C14 we obtained via other means. We measure an amount of C14 that's 2^4 times smaller than current amounts and conclude that the amount of C14 was halved 4 times. If the decay rate was actually 1/1000th larger on average, then we should have conclude that 2^(-4) = 1/2^(t/5005) or t = 20020 years. In other words: the error is as large as the relative seasonal variation, which is quite small already and probably falls well within the regular error bars.
- loewenskind 16y ago
  But that means you're expecting the C14 rates to be the same now as when the subject died. A reasonable assumption but as far as I understand C14 hasn't reached any kind of equilibrium for some reason. Aren't there different amounts in the air than say, 50 years ago?
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - Confusion 16y ago
    Carbon dating always requires an estimate of the initial amount of C14 in the object whose age is being determined. That is an issue separate from the one being considered in this thread, but one whose error bar is probably more important. I cursorily touched upon that with: *x* is the initial amount of C14 we obtained via other means. These 'other means' are thoroughly explained in various places on the web, due to the amount of creationist attacks on carbon dating.
ajju 16y ago
I think the paper itself is a challenge to carbon dating. The question is whether the resultant inaccuracies in carbon dating would invalidate the theory of evolution. Whether or not they do (and it seems obvious to me that they don't), creationists will claim they do.

by KingOfB 16y ago

api 16y ago

Yeah, true, but I still predict the creationists will be all over it. But you could add much wider error bars to carbon dating and it still wouldn't support creationism. Maybe something 20 million years old is just 7 million. Fine. It's not six thousand.

KingOfB 16y ago
I completely agree. I just find it funny that new science appears and everyone's moaning about the impact of the creationists argument!
Confusion 16y ago
It's more like: maybe something estimated to be 20.0 million years old (with an error bar of 0.5 million years) should have been estimated to be 19.99 million years old, with the same error bar and hence the same precision, which is still 20.0 million years. And that only makes sense if we weren't talking about carbon dating, which isn't used for those timescales.

apphacker 16y ago

Whatever variation may exist, carbon dating has been independently verified via other dating means such as coral ring formations and dendrochronology. Unless whatever is having an effect on carbon dating also affects these other, unrelated, forms of dating in the exact same way we can expect the variation to be small and not significant enough to upend everything we know. The evidence that our dating mechanisms work is undeniable - tectonic movement, linguistic evidence of language dispersion, physiological changes in species and their geographical distribution, etc etc all happen at predictable rates and all match up with what we know about our dating methods. Really, creationists should be better suited applying their ultra-skepticism at the much larger gaps in evidence and analysis found in their own ideas. The thing about people who value science is that whenever data presents a challenge we have to account for it, unlike the idiot creationists who only embrace data when it agrees with their already pre-conceived ideas.

Confusion 16y ago

If we can measure variance inside of 33 days, and that's extrapolated over a few millions of years, that could skew the numbers a bit. [..] that has a huge impact on carbon dating. No, the effect is very extremely small and this has no impact at all. Lets suppose that: * we measure differences of 1/1000th in decay rates (this is reasonable given the differences the article is based on) * the average variation is 1/1000th, otherwise it would have been detected earlier. * the halflife of C14 is 5000 years (to make calculations easy) * we are determining the age of something 20000 years old (carbon dating is only used for ages in that order of magnitude). * the decay formula is y = x(1/2)^(t/tau), where y is the amount of C14 you will measure after t years, tau is the halflife in years and x is the initial amount of C14 we obtained via other means. We measure an amount of C14 that's 2^4 times smaller than current amounts and conclude that the amount of C14 was halved 4 times. If the decay rate was actually 1/1000th larger on average, then we should have conclude that 2^(-4) = 1/2^(t/5005) or t = 20020 years. In other words: the error is as large as the relative seasonal variation, which is quite small already and probably falls well within the regular error bars.

loewenskind 16y ago
But that means you're expecting the C14 rates to be the same now as when the subject died. A reasonable assumption but as far as I understand C14 hasn't reached any kind of equilibrium for some reason. Aren't there different amounts in the air than say, 50 years ago?
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- Confusion 16y ago
  Carbon dating always requires an estimate of the initial amount of C14 in the object whose age is being determined. That is an issue separate from the one being considered in this thread, but one whose error bar is probably more important. I cursorily touched upon that with: *x* is the initial amount of C14 we obtained via other means. These 'other means' are thoroughly explained in various places on the web, due to the amount of creationist attacks on carbon dating.

ajju 16y ago

I think the paper itself is a challenge to carbon dating. The question is whether the resultant inaccuracies in carbon dating would invalidate the theory of evolution. Whether or not they do (and it seems obvious to me that they don't), creationists will claim they do.