8 ms·

Why are successful professionals still working 70 hours a week?

97 points by skartik 9y ago

skartik 9y ago
At the heart of it all is the amount of insecurity we have about our work, it's quality and relevance.
aplummer 9y ago
Is it bad to just like work? I couldn't think of anything I could do for the number of hours that I work that wouldn't send me insane. Travelling, hanging out with friends, partying, sports, random interests - not that I don't like them a bit, but I would lose it after just a few weeks.
mmilano 9y ago
New success quickly becomes the new baseline and a personality that chases success will continue to pursue greater success.
dadawoowoo 9y ago
Sometimes it helps if you think back to one year before you started with your current work, what things were important to you then.
nso95 9y ago
What is success, really?
tonyedgecombe 9y ago
I wonder if organisations are getting the benefits they perceive, I suppose if you bill by the hour you are but I know from personal experience nothing kills my creativity like overwork.
montrose 9y ago
Because I like to work. People who don't like to work often misunderstand this when looking at the stories of successful people. They think successful people force themselves to work hard in order to be successful. In fact successful people often like their work so much that there's nothing else they'd rather do. I doubt for example that there's anything Jeff Bezos would rather do than run Amazon. I bet it seems to him the way a gigantic Lego creation seems to a 7 year old.
- ProxCoques 9y ago
  Exactly. My father told me a story of when he was stuck in traffic with somebody who was then about the 10th richest person in the world. To make conversation, my father asked him what his plans for the coming year were. The guy listed all sorts of business goals. My father asked if he had anything personally that he was planning. The guy basically replied that those were his personal plans. He made no distinction between work and play.
  - irundebian 9y ago
    That's sad.
    - vixen99 9y ago
      That's patronizing. How about 'I would find that sad if I was in his position'.
      - closed 9y ago
        When I see you use "That's patronizing", I feel conflicted because it seems to be in the same evaluative style as "That's sad". I am not sure if it's constructive to use a style being criticized against a person. (this is me practicing nonviolent communication or something :)
        irundebian 9y ago
        The solution is not to feel offended when you're being criticized. As long it doesn't get abusive.
        closed 9y ago
        That's fair--it sounds like you're saying a person receiving criticism should be resilient to that criticism to some extent. I'm interested in hearing what you think the solution (if any) is for the person giving the criticism. (to be clear, I don't feel offended by the parent comment)
DanielBMarkham 9y ago
You can have meaning or you can have happiness. You cannot have both -- at least not all of the time. This conflict can be seen clearly in a movie like "Office Space", where both the male and female leads are working for happiness (and survival) whereas the work environment expects them to be working for meaning. (How many pieces of flair are you wearing?) The trick to this discussion is that people on one side of the discussion frankly don't understand folks on the other side. The things they say and do don't make any sense. If you're a meaning person, you read the title of this essay -- "If You’re So Successful, Why Are You Still Working 70 Hours a Week?" and think if you're successful, why wouldn't you be working 70 hours a week? You're doing what you love, making a difference in the world! It's only those that are unsuccessful, those who work for meaning but aren't very effective, that would spend a lot of time doing nothing. For both camps, it seems the world is full of people from the other camp, basically ruining things for the rest of us. It would be great if we could convey this critical piece of information to people early on in life. So much time and energy is spent in conflicts with other folks where it's not needed.
- StavrosK 9y ago
  You're assuming everyone finds meaning in work. Some people find meaning in other things.
- hnzix 9y ago
  "People with careers need to learn to shut the fuck up around people with jobs. Don't let your happiness make somebody sad. [...] When you got a career, there ain't enough time. When you got a job, there's too much time." -- Chris Rock [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnlNUZqFzgY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnlNUZqFzgY
  - watwut 9y ago
    That outlook on life is horrible in so many ways ...
- deepGem 9y ago
  I think there is more nuance to meaning and happiness. The process of attaining meaning, in my view, is torturous. Think of any field - sports, theater. I don't think any athlete or sportsperson would call the process of attaining meaning a happy process. It's no fun to wake up at 5 in bone chilling cold for a workout. There's definitely some element of happiness driving this process. From what I can postulate, it's the end result or the chain of end results that brings about meaning and happiness. Somehow I can't disintegrate the two. It's perfectly ok to not find that meaning and happiness at work, but find it somewhere else. Otherwise, like Warren Buffett says you'll just sleep walk through life.
grecy 9y ago
It's great to see an article about this. I think it's clear that as automation replaces a lot of jobs we're all going to work less (finally) and find meaning, purpose and happiness in other ways. Certainly some people really love their work, and that's fantastic. Other people would rather work less, and that's great too.
zrb05292 9y ago
I have to work almost all the time. My day typically begins at 3am and ends around 7pm. The reason for this is that my own projects and goals are often contingent on the successful completion of projects by other teams, and organizationally we tend to hire C workers at best. So I spend a lot of time pushing other people and other teams. It doesn’t make me popular but it does make me effective.
- sgt101 9y ago
  Where will this lead? How would you react if you were laid off ?
  - shadowtree 9y ago
    You’re replying to the CEO of Apple.
    - sgt101 9y ago
      This is great! I'm probably a high c* so if apple are hiring I'm in! * hello Dunning Kruger!
    - marcosdumay 9y ago
      That's a very bad thing for a CEO to ever say. He is the one dictating that his organization hires C workers at best. But, anyway, I'm really curious about know how he would answer that question.
  - zrb05292 9y ago
    I was laid off about 4 years ago. My boss Skyped me (really!) and said there was no easy way to put it but they were moving the business in a different direction and I, along with my team, were being laid off. I laughed at him, said ok, and hung up. Then I stomped around angrily for half an hour. Then I hopped on LinkedIn and started applying for every open position that looked appealing. In 12 days I was made an offer and started the following week.
EddieSpeaks 9y ago
Because they like their jobs. They’ve managed to find a rare combination that everyone wants - a job they really like that pays really well.
bobsman123 9y ago
I work 30 hours a week and make 150/year. Reducing time worked is always my top priority. Those 30 hours don’t include a second of Reddit or chit chat. Just work.
saas_co_de 9y ago
It is odd to ask this question without any consideration of culture. Perhaps our culture defines "success" in a way that can only be achieved by working 70 hours a week. Also, where is the law that says devoting time to idle leisure is superior to working?
- sjg007 9y ago
  Are these 70 hours productive? I need downtime to think. So if you include thinking as part of that 70 hours then fine.
rayiner 9y ago
The article profiles people in a bunch of professional firms, but ignores the changing market for those professionals. An ABA study showed that in 1965, a typical billable hour target for a lawyer was 1200-1600. Today, 2000 hours is a typical target. That can’t be explained by culture. Law has always drawn “insecure overachievers.” In reality, it’s due to the changing marketplace. Decades ago, it would be highly unusual for Philadelphia company to retain a DC firm for a matter. Today, it’s routine—your competition is nationwide. Golfing with local business people doesn’t cut it for business development anymore. And like other industries, the work has shifted to larger players in big markets (NYC/Chicago/SF/DC). External competition also breeds internal competition. I used to work at a firm in New York. There was no competition in the partnership, by design: everyone was paid in a lock step fashion strictly by seniority. Business development meant checking your messages when you got back from lunch. Partnership was for life and partners never left. That was typical 30-40 years ago. Today it’s very much the exception, a model retained by a handful of firms that have major institutional relationships. The typical model today is “eat what you kill.” Partners are compensated based on how much business they bring in, and regularly hop from firm to firm depending on who is offering the best pay package. Of course all this isn’t necessarily bad. Increased competition means more work, more hours, more availability. But where there is a lack of competition, that’s often a sign of people being kept down. Back in 1965, many firms didn’t hire Jews, Asians, African Americans, women, etc. Business was given out over drinks instead of having competing firms pitch for it in a transparent way. All of those things increase competition and decrease the value of “good old boy” networks.
anotheryou 9y ago
Maybe those valuing a lifestyle with less work opt-out earlier and work part-time in a just mildly successful career
danjoc 9y ago
Working 70 hrs a week is a signal to me that one is not competent. Computers work for me, not the other way around. As for the people with "bullshit jobs" I assume they do it because of imposter syndrome. The only other category I can think of is doctors, doing it because there's literally no one else who can save a life. That's a management/credentialism issue.
fastbeef 9y ago
For the most of my career, I was certain that there was something wrong with me. After the first few months at a new job, a sense of meaninglessness grew in me. Is this it? Am I really babysitting this ASP.Net app from here on out? I tried to find meaning in my work but always came up short. Cue a miserable year followed by a job hunt. Rinse and repeat every 2-4 years. After 12 years of this, it suddendly struck me - I don’t like working. I don’t hate it, not at all - I enjoy coding and fixing bugs. However I fail to see any deeper meaning in the work I do. So last month, I quit, started my own consultancy and sell my skills and time to the highest bidder, max 6 hours per day. Couldn’t be happier! I really feel more like a plumber or electrician than a coder and for the first time in my career I don’t feel anxious about doing something meaningful, because I’ve redefined what “meaning” is.
- indemnity 9y ago
  Thanks. As someone who struggles mightily with the same, I’ve always thought that path is one I should follow, but I’m not great at networking / hustling for the next contract, which you kind of have to do, right?
  - fastbeef 9y ago
    The local market here in Sweden is super-hot so I can pick and choose. Usually, I go through a broker who takes 10% of everything I invoice but does all the selling for me.
Bombthecat 9y ago
And then on your death bed :damn! I could have put in 80 hours a week! Regrets, regrets... Regrets.
mbrodersen 9y ago
The number of hours people work is not important. What is important is whether they freely choose to work that amount of hours or not. There are poor people who work a lot more than 70 hours a week (2 to 3 different jobs). But that is not something they choose to do.
mbrodersen 9y ago
Also, measuring success in money earned is misguided. Success is personal. Success is achieving what gives meaning/fulfilment to you independently of what gives meaning/fulfilment to others.
ggm 9y ago
My parents probably had this. "life is short" dominated anyone who lived through the great depression, and WWII and I think it influenced their sense that purposeful activity was better than other choices, what was work and what was pleasure blended, because you had a sense it was better to make things happen, than let entropy rule. I had this as an engaging drive until 15-20 years ago when I somehow lost my work ethic, in a dark corner and I've looked for it fitfully since, but if I am honest, not very hard. I appreciate that its better to build, and leave something behind, but I am less driven to do this 24/7.
lulmerchant 9y ago
Maybe that's how they became successful. It's a well established fact that industriousness is one of the strongest predictors of success in people.
cannonedhamster 9y ago
I'm technically a successful professional, but I'd certainly love to work less than 70 hours weeks. I don't have a choice, we're understaffed. It's been shown in black and white to management who is betting a sale will bring those people in. The scam comes into play when we realize we're salary. I used to look at salary as something to achieve, flexible work schedule where I could put in the work and go home when I was done. Now the work is never done. I enjoy what I'm doing, and I'm good at it, but the drive to push everyone in the tech industry into burnout is a cancer that's carving the industry out.

97 points by skartik 9y ago

At the heart of it all is the amount of insecurity we have about our work, it's quality and relevance.

Is it bad to just like work? I couldn't think of anything I could do for the number of hours that I work that wouldn't send me insane. Travelling, hanging out with friends, partying, sports, random interests - not that I don't like them a bit, but I would lose it after just a few weeks.

mmilano 9y ago

New success quickly becomes the new baseline and a personality that chases success will continue to pursue greater success.

dadawoowoo 9y ago

Sometimes it helps if you think back to one year before you started with your current work, what things were important to you then.

nso95 9y ago

What is success, really?

tonyedgecombe 9y ago

I wonder if organisations are getting the benefits they perceive, I suppose if you bill by the hour you are but I know from personal experience nothing kills my creativity like overwork.

montrose 9y ago

Because I like to work. People who don't like to work often misunderstand this when looking at the stories of successful people. They think successful people force themselves to work hard in order to be successful. In fact successful people often like their work so much that there's nothing else they'd rather do. I doubt for example that there's anything Jeff Bezos would rather do than run Amazon. I bet it seems to him the way a gigantic Lego creation seems to a 7 year old.

ProxCoques 9y ago
Exactly. My father told me a story of when he was stuck in traffic with somebody who was then about the 10th richest person in the world. To make conversation, my father asked him what his plans for the coming year were. The guy listed all sorts of business goals. My father asked if he had anything personally that he was planning. The guy basically replied that those were his personal plans. He made no distinction between work and play.
- irundebian 9y ago
  That's sad.
  - vixen99 9y ago
    That's patronizing. How about 'I would find that sad if I was in his position'.
    - closed 9y ago
      When I see you use "That's patronizing", I feel conflicted because it seems to be in the same evaluative style as "That's sad". I am not sure if it's constructive to use a style being criticized against a person. (this is me practicing nonviolent communication or something :)
      - irundebian 9y ago
        The solution is not to feel offended when you're being criticized. As long it doesn't get abusive.
        closed 9y ago
        That's fair--it sounds like you're saying a person receiving criticism should be resilient to that criticism to some extent. I'm interested in hearing what you think the solution (if any) is for the person giving the criticism. (to be clear, I don't feel offended by the parent comment)

DanielBMarkham 9y ago

You can have meaning or you can have happiness. You cannot have both -- at least not all of the time. This conflict can be seen clearly in a movie like "Office Space", where both the male and female leads are working for happiness (and survival) whereas the work environment expects them to be working for meaning. (How many pieces of flair are you wearing?) The trick to this discussion is that people on one side of the discussion frankly don't understand folks on the other side. The things they say and do don't make any sense. If you're a meaning person, you read the title of this essay -- "If You’re So Successful, Why Are You Still Working 70 Hours a Week?" and think if you're successful, why wouldn't you be working 70 hours a week? You're doing what you love, making a difference in the world! It's only those that are unsuccessful, those who work for meaning but aren't very effective, that would spend a lot of time doing nothing. For both camps, it seems the world is full of people from the other camp, basically ruining things for the rest of us. It would be great if we could convey this critical piece of information to people early on in life. So much time and energy is spent in conflicts with other folks where it's not needed.

StavrosK 9y ago
You're assuming everyone finds meaning in work. Some people find meaning in other things.
hnzix 9y ago
"People with careers need to learn to shut the fuck up around people with jobs. Don't let your happiness make somebody sad. [...] When you got a career, there ain't enough time. When you got a job, there's too much time." -- Chris Rock [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnlNUZqFzgY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnlNUZqFzgY
- watwut 9y ago
  That outlook on life is horrible in so many ways ...
deepGem 9y ago
I think there is more nuance to meaning and happiness. The process of attaining meaning, in my view, is torturous. Think of any field - sports, theater. I don't think any athlete or sportsperson would call the process of attaining meaning a happy process. It's no fun to wake up at 5 in bone chilling cold for a workout. There's definitely some element of happiness driving this process. From what I can postulate, it's the end result or the chain of end results that brings about meaning and happiness. Somehow I can't disintegrate the two. It's perfectly ok to not find that meaning and happiness at work, but find it somewhere else. Otherwise, like Warren Buffett says you'll just sleep walk through life.

grecy 9y ago

It's great to see an article about this. I think it's clear that as automation replaces a lot of jobs we're all going to work less (finally) and find meaning, purpose and happiness in other ways. Certainly some people really love their work, and that's fantastic. Other people would rather work less, and that's great too.

zrb05292 9y ago

I have to work almost all the time. My day typically begins at 3am and ends around 7pm. The reason for this is that my own projects and goals are often contingent on the successful completion of projects by other teams, and organizationally we tend to hire C workers at best. So I spend a lot of time pushing other people and other teams. It doesn’t make me popular but it does make me effective.

sgt101 9y ago
Where will this lead? How would you react if you were laid off ?
- shadowtree 9y ago
  You’re replying to the CEO of Apple.
  - sgt101 9y ago
    This is great! I'm probably a high c* so if apple are hiring I'm in! * hello Dunning Kruger!
  - marcosdumay 9y ago
    That's a very bad thing for a CEO to ever say. He is the one dictating that his organization hires C workers at best. But, anyway, I'm really curious about know how he would answer that question.
- zrb05292 9y ago
  I was laid off about 4 years ago. My boss Skyped me (really!) and said there was no easy way to put it but they were moving the business in a different direction and I, along with my team, were being laid off. I laughed at him, said ok, and hung up. Then I stomped around angrily for half an hour. Then I hopped on LinkedIn and started applying for every open position that looked appealing. In 12 days I was made an offer and started the following week.

EddieSpeaks 9y ago

Because they like their jobs. They’ve managed to find a rare combination that everyone wants - a job they really like that pays really well.

bobsman123 9y ago

I work 30 hours a week and make 150/year. Reducing time worked is always my top priority. Those 30 hours don’t include a second of Reddit or chit chat. Just work.

saas_co_de 9y ago

It is odd to ask this question without any consideration of culture. Perhaps our culture defines "success" in a way that can only be achieved by working 70 hours a week. Also, where is the law that says devoting time to idle leisure is superior to working?

sjg007 9y ago
Are these 70 hours productive? I need downtime to think. So if you include thinking as part of that 70 hours then fine.

rayiner 9y ago

The article profiles people in a bunch of professional firms, but ignores the changing market for those professionals. An ABA study showed that in 1965, a typical billable hour target for a lawyer was 1200-1600. Today, 2000 hours is a typical target. That can’t be explained by culture. Law has always drawn “insecure overachievers.” In reality, it’s due to the changing marketplace. Decades ago, it would be highly unusual for Philadelphia company to retain a DC firm for a matter. Today, it’s routine—your competition is nationwide. Golfing with local business people doesn’t cut it for business development anymore. And like other industries, the work has shifted to larger players in big markets (NYC/Chicago/SF/DC). External competition also breeds internal competition. I used to work at a firm in New York. There was no competition in the partnership, by design: everyone was paid in a lock step fashion strictly by seniority. Business development meant checking your messages when you got back from lunch. Partnership was for life and partners never left. That was typical 30-40 years ago. Today it’s very much the exception, a model retained by a handful of firms that have major institutional relationships. The typical model today is “eat what you kill.” Partners are compensated based on how much business they bring in, and regularly hop from firm to firm depending on who is offering the best pay package. Of course all this isn’t necessarily bad. Increased competition means more work, more hours, more availability. But where there is a lack of competition, that’s often a sign of people being kept down. Back in 1965, many firms didn’t hire Jews, Asians, African Americans, women, etc. Business was given out over drinks instead of having competing firms pitch for it in a transparent way. All of those things increase competition and decrease the value of “good old boy” networks.

anotheryou 9y ago

Maybe those valuing a lifestyle with less work opt-out earlier and work part-time in a just mildly successful career

danjoc 9y ago

Working 70 hrs a week is a signal to me that one is not competent. Computers work for me, not the other way around. As for the people with "bullshit jobs" I assume they do it because of imposter syndrome. The only other category I can think of is doctors, doing it because there's literally no one else who can save a life. That's a management/credentialism issue.

fastbeef 9y ago

For the most of my career, I was certain that there was something wrong with me. After the first few months at a new job, a sense of meaninglessness grew in me. Is this it? Am I really babysitting this ASP.Net app from here on out? I tried to find meaning in my work but always came up short. Cue a miserable year followed by a job hunt. Rinse and repeat every 2-4 years. After 12 years of this, it suddendly struck me - I don’t like working. I don’t hate it, not at all - I enjoy coding and fixing bugs. However I fail to see any deeper meaning in the work I do. So last month, I quit, started my own consultancy and sell my skills and time to the highest bidder, max 6 hours per day. Couldn’t be happier! I really feel more like a plumber or electrician than a coder and for the first time in my career I don’t feel anxious about doing something meaningful, because I’ve redefined what “meaning” is.

indemnity 9y ago
Thanks. As someone who struggles mightily with the same, I’ve always thought that path is one I should follow, but I’m not great at networking / hustling for the next contract, which you kind of have to do, right?
- fastbeef 9y ago
  The local market here in Sweden is super-hot so I can pick and choose. Usually, I go through a broker who takes 10% of everything I invoice but does all the selling for me.

Bombthecat 9y ago

And then on your death bed :damn! I could have put in 80 hours a week! Regrets, regrets... Regrets.

mbrodersen 9y ago

The number of hours people work is not important. What is important is whether they freely choose to work that amount of hours or not. There are poor people who work a lot more than 70 hours a week (2 to 3 different jobs). But that is not something they choose to do.

mbrodersen 9y ago

Also, measuring success in money earned is misguided. Success is personal. Success is achieving what gives meaning/fulfilment to you independently of what gives meaning/fulfilment to others.

ggm 9y ago

My parents probably had this. "life is short" dominated anyone who lived through the great depression, and WWII and I think it influenced their sense that purposeful activity was better than other choices, what was work and what was pleasure blended, because you had a sense it was better to make things happen, than let entropy rule. I had this as an engaging drive until 15-20 years ago when I somehow lost my work ethic, in a dark corner and I've looked for it fitfully since, but if I am honest, not very hard. I appreciate that its better to build, and leave something behind, but I am less driven to do this 24/7.

lulmerchant 9y ago

Maybe that's how they became successful. It's a well established fact that industriousness is one of the strongest predictors of success in people.

cannonedhamster 9y ago

I'm technically a successful professional, but I'd certainly love to work less than 70 hours weeks. I don't have a choice, we're understaffed. It's been shown in black and white to management who is betting a sale will bring those people in. The scam comes into play when we realize we're salary. I used to look at salary as something to achieve, flexible work schedule where I could put in the work and go home when I was done. Now the work is never done. I enjoy what I'm doing, and I'm good at it, but the drive to push everyone in the tech industry into burnout is a cancer that's carving the industry out.