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Great, they’ve ruined vegetarianism.
by rubyfan 9y ago
Great, they’ve ruined vegetarianism.
- DoreenMichele 9y agoWe have known for years that plants give off a pulse ("scream") when assaulted, communicate chemically etc. I have said for years that the idea that eating plants is morally superior because they aren't sentient is basically speciesist, for lack of a better word.
- jopsen 9y agoWell, I would argue that eating animals is morally superior to cannibalism :) So why can't eating plants be morally superior to eat animals.
- DoreenMichele 9y agoI would argue that there are lots of valid reasons to eat lower on the food chain, many of which can be framed as having a moral impetus. But the idea that it is morally superior based on plants being stupid is repugnant to me. It opens the door on questions like "So, is it okay to eat mentally retarded people?" Some moral arguments I can agree with: A mostly plant based diet is less resource intensive. Since most wars are about scarcity of resources, eating less meat is voting against war in a tangible way. It is about promoting peace globally. There are health benefits to eating less meat. Meat is very water intensive. Water shortages are a big deal globally at the moment. There are no doubt others. Just quick and dirty off the cuff thoughts.
- everdev 9y agoOr for me: I should only eat something that I am willing to kill, clean and cook myself. When we pass the important moral test of killing an animal to someone else or a factory I think we lose touch with the decision we're making.
- icebraining 9y agoOn the other hand, professionals are more efficient, and you can impose rules on them, as to minimize the suffering. My family is from a rural area, and the stories I've heard of inexpert killings are horrifying, certainly worse than using the wrong levels of CO² or similar.
- ahartman00 9y agoThe rules are important: "As the trend of backyard flock tending skyrocketed in recent years, so has deadly infections" https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/10/thousands-of-diy-foodies-sickened-in-outbreak-from-poor-agricultural-practices/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/10/thousands-of-diy-foo...
- gowld 9y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Bentham https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Bentham "The question is not, Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but, Can they suffer?"
- DoreenMichele 9y agoIf my IQ is higher than yours, is this evidence that I suffer more deeply than you? I seriously don't personally like this line of reasoning. At. All.
- woodman 9y agoIf IQ measured the depth of emotional understanding, then yes. You don't have to like it, just find another reason to argue against eating people - there are plenty.
- DoreenMichele 9y agoPlenty of very smart people have terrible social and emotional intelligence. So, I don't think so.
- woodman 9y agoIt really doesn't matter, because the rationale you provided was essentially: it is wrong because I don't like it. To keep with your utilitarian line of thinking, a position against cannibalism based on disease transmission would make more sense. Personally, I prefer the classic argument of it being the ultimate violation of personal space - but that is likely because I favor Locke's theory of property and the mixing of labor.
- DoreenMichele 9y agoAh. No. To be clear: this line of reasoning is simply not my cup of tea and I feel zero need to take it seriously or justify my preference. To each his own.
- oh_sigh 9y agoIs war really about scarcity of resources or about conflict over resources, regardless of scarcity?
- simplify 9y agoI think it's about the scarce ones. For example, oil is scarce, and the US goes through great and terrible lengths to ensure we get enough of it. On the other hand, it's also true that war is often caused by greedy leadership.
- lsc 9y ago>Is war really about scarcity of resources or about conflict over resources, regardless of scarcity? I think there is a huge difference between the world before the green revolution and after, and I personally think that this difference is a big part of why we haven't seen major power wars after the middle of the 20th century. World war two was the last major power war, and it was also the last major power war fought when there were not enough calories for everyone to eat their fill. Coincidence? After world war two (well, after the 'green revolution' that happened in the mid 20th century) there was enough food, and... you could argue that we haven't had a direct major power war since then. I personally think that the fact that getting enough calories is generally not a problem anymore has a lot to do with the fact that we haven't seen any major power wars lately.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- visarga 9y agoI wouldn't make human source of food a major moral issue. In the end, we can't eat rocks. We need something organic, be it plants or animals. Of course, if human survival is put at risk by meat consumption, we'd need to adapt.
- DoreenMichele 9y agoI largely agree.
- YSFEJ4SWJUVU6 9y ago>There are health benefits to eating less meat. Are there? To what extent? I'd very much like to see the science to back up a blanket statement like that.
- c0nducktr 9y agohttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3662288/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3662288/ All the information in the world is but a google search away...
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- cmrdporcupine 9y agoRuminant animals are far more efficient than us at turning plants into high energy protein and fat. And omnivores like pigs and chickens can eat things that we can't/won't (food waste, insects, worms, grasses, seeds), and turn them into protein and fat. Our current animal feed system is terrible (grow large quantities of monocrop corn and soy on high quality arable land using vast quantities of fertilizer and terrible soil conservation practices). But farm animals are an important part of the 'circuit' of a viable small farm. Chickens and ducks can help with weeding. Goats and sheep can turn sod into manure, one of them best fertilizers. Having meat/lard/soup bones in the freezer is an important way to get through the winter. Legumes don't produce a complete protein that we can survive on by themselves. Vegetarian diets tend to skew too far in the direction of carbohydrates. Plants that produce fats and proteins in the quantities we needs (nuts, avocados, etc.) are pretty much as water hungry as animals. A pure vegetarian diet may not in fact turn out to be more energy efficient or environmentally sound if it just replaces our monocrop animal feed farms with monocrops of unhealthy insuling-provoking carbohydrates. Historically, highly hierarchical or slaveholding agricultural societies fed their slaves almost exclusively maize/rice/wheat -- and kept the meat/fish for elites. If you look at the archaeological record and remains of those bodies, the health effects are obvious. Short stature, dental health issues, bone density problems, shortened lifespans. Roman soldiers were terrified of their taller and stockier Germanic/Celtic foes who lived on a more well-rounded diet with more meat and dairy.
- cjbprime 9y agoWhat about the argument that we should minimize suffering created by our food choices, and plants appear to be less capable of suffering than almost all animals? Which animals do you think we would be ethically justified in eating instead of eating plants?
- firethief 9y agoEating plants, as opposed to eating animals that ate lots of plants?
- chr1 9y agoBy eating animals you save lots of plants from being eaten in the future!
- hyperion2010 9y agoMy favorite only half joking comment on vegitarianism is "So you're saying that you are racist against plants?" [0] 0. The pedant in me says kingdomist.
- DoreenMichele 9y agoI have long joked that vegetarianism is about hating plants, not loving animals.
- gowld 9y agoAnimals that peope eat eat far more plants than people who eat plants eat, so the joke is more "funny" than meaningful.
- kinkrtyavimoodh 9y agoIt's not even funny. It's an attempt to subvert the very legitimate premise of vegetarianism in order to not face the undeniable impacts of non-vegetarian diets.
- DoreenMichele 9y agoNo. It is mocking the idea that the food choices of vegetarians makes them morally superior and entitled to look down their noses at everyone else and be awful to them. My dislike of the tendency for vegetarians to be all holier than thou was solidified while I was homeless and being harassed online by a holier than thou vegan* who claimed to be vegan because she couldn't tolerate the suffering of the farm raised animals. Meanwhile, she took glee in adding to my suffering, though I was extremely ill and desperately poor because of it. I am a big fan of "go pray in your closet." Making food choices because you sincerely believe they are morally right is totes cool. Being an asshole to anyone who doesn't eat like you, not so much. * To make matters worse, she wasn't really a committed vegan. In cold weather, she happily added cheese to her diet. She just preferred to call herself vegan for the virtue signaling associated with it.
- datpuz 9y agoNow we can't eat plants or animals. Sounds like a killer way to lose weight!
- hodl 9y agoJust eat roadkill and naturally fallen fruit. Also breastmilk.
- cageface 9y agoEven if you believe that plants are conscious eating plants instead of animals is still more ethical because it takes around 7kg of plant feed to produce 1kg of meat. So you’re responsible for the death of the animal and all the plants it ate.
- smaddox 9y agoThat depends on how much plant feed you need to consume to offset the calories and nutrition from 1kg of meat. This will, of course, depend on the plant and the meat, but I'm sure you could make some reasonable assumptions. I've never done the math, but would be interested to hear if anyone has.
- cageface 9y agoIt takes many fewer plant resources to produce the same calories or protein than it does for the equivalent in meat. The ratio can be as bad as 20 to 1. http://www.wri.org/blog/2016/04/sustainable-diets-what-you-need-know-12-charts http://www.wri.org/blog/2016/04/sustainable-diets-what-you-n...
- leoc 9y agoThis is what https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jain_vegetarianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jain_vegetarianism is all about. (The scruples of the Jain are outlandish, but also worthy of serious respect. You won't meet many new-agey types who are as serious about compassion and nonviolence.)
- geofft 9y agoCan you construct a complete human diet out of fungi (mushrooms, truffles, yeast, etc.)? What about if you add milk and eggs?
- DoreenMichele 9y agoEggs = unborn baby birds.
- leoc 9y agoNot unless they're fertilised.
- DoreenMichele 9y agoI probably should have put a winky in there. Whoops.
- smaddox 9y agoTell that to the Catholic church.
- geofft 9y agoEr, I am pretty sure the Catholic Chuech does not regard unfertilized eggs as equivalent to babies in any way?
- ahartman00 9y agoSearching for mushroom nutrition facts, it looks like you wont be getting any micro nutrients. Milk and eggs will add protein and fat, but you will be lacking in fiber, and I don't think you will be getting all the types of fats you need.
- asciimo 9y agoEgg and dairy production it pretty horrific. (And chickens and cows are fed plants.)
- cjbprime 9y agoIf hearing that choosing to eat plants can cause suffering ruins vegetarianism for you, it should already have been ruined by learning that harvesting land for e.g. wheat causes the death of some small animals. (Mice, rabbits, etc.) The idea that it's a worthy goal to minimize suffering caused through your food choices, however, is unaffected by learning about harvesting deaths or by learning that plants might be very minimally conscious.
- acct1771 9y agoSome make the "minimally conscious" argument about the animals we use as food sources now. Wonder how deep that rabbit hole will be in 100 years.
- kbenson 9y agoAs deep as it needs to be to allow people to accept lab grown meat. The equivalent of conscientious vegetarians of the future may be those that only eat lab grown human meat, of their own grown cells. Me-steak is the meat of the future. Of course, genetics probably means some of us taste better than others...
- pygy_ 9y agoThere's no reason to believe that single cells can't be conscious too. You'd have to eat organic molecule synthesized through a non-biological, industrial process that feeds on energy harvested in space, so that all solar energy on earth can be given back to the wilderness. Yes, using terrestrial solar and wind energy deprives geologic, atmospheric, marine and wild biological processes from the energy they're naturally due, and it is not ethical to use it anymore than it is to eat animal flesh. More seriously, we're dissipative structures, and we can't survive (i.e. keep our inner entropy low) without raising the entropy in our surrounding. So there's gonna be some environmental disruption if we want to survive, and it's going to be at the expense of other organisms, be they cute, plain or disgusting. Edit: with all that said, I think our current meat consumption rate is suicidal for environmental reasons. I do think we should limit the amount of meat we eat, but not out of compassion for non-human animals. I may have another opinion if I didn't have kids, but since they're there I'd rather limit as much as possible the cataclysm that's unfolding before our very eyes.
- bashcoder 9y ago“Meat’s back on the menu, boys!”
- lsc 9y ago"These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots!"