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Where Dutch directness comes from
- Wildgoose 9y agoI'm a Yorkshireman. We have a reputation within the UK for being plain-spoken and direct as well. It goes without saying that I prefer it to "mealy-mouthed" speech that doesn't get to the point.
- Systemic33 9y agoIn all honesty, a lot of this “directness” comes down to the fact that literal translations sound a lot harsher in English than what the non-native speaker necessarily meant. In Denmark there’s the same sort of experience by foreigners, and I’ve heard it happens in Germany as well. The situation is that in the local language, there’s a lot subtlety that simply gets lost in translation. You can probably throw a little culturally bluntness on it as well, but the majority is down to translation.
- dmichulke 9y agoI don't think so. For your argument to hold, the Dutch (or Danish or Germans) should be perceived as more polite when speaking English, yet they aren't. Either this or they all speak bad English (which is unlikely due to speaking other Germanic languages and getting 50% of their colloquial American English via Netflix and/or Hollywood)
- cr1895 9y ago>they all speak bad English I wouldn't say bad, but I would say it is often spoken without the nuance of a native speaker. In my experience Dutch peoples' English is strongly influenced by Dutch.
- roenxi 9y agoI spend a lot of time talking about engineering problems, the word 'failure' now means something very specific to me. It means 'didn't work as intended'. If my cup leaks a bit, that is failure. Often things fail for very good reasons. That is really, really different from what failure means in everyday English, which is much closer to 'somebody didn't succeed due to a neglect of duty'. I usually regret the times I use the word failure in conversation, because in my head it has come to mean something that is really quite mild. I typically can't convey that to a normal listener if I reflexively slip it into a conversation. Maybe a literal translation from another language loses subtlety and becomes harsher following a similar principle? Each word has a range of meanings, and the closest word in a different language won't ever quite cover the same ground.
- pwagland 9y agoThis is, of course, also true. However, at least in the case of the Dutch, there is more to it than that. The Dutch have no problems saying "that's not right" whether they say that in Dutch or English, that particular phrase translates to the same thing (Dat klopt niet vs that's not right). And they have no problems (in general) saying that to a stranger, their boss, or their subordinate.
- mantas 9y agoWho would have a problem stating "that's not right" if something is indeed wrong? Americans seem to have no problems to say this either. The only case I could come up with is Indians. But maybe that's just my experience with cheap outsourcing...
- pwagland 9y agoWell, the author of the article is assumedly from the UK. In general, this is not what they would say. They would say something like "respectfully, I'm not sure that's correct". One is a lot more "direct" than the other.
- mantas 9y agoDo people actually say that in their daily lives? I thought that's only IT Crowd over-the-top joke :|
- Smaug123 9y agoMore like "Are you sure? I'm worried that <opposite of thing interlocutor just said>." or "Sorry, I think it's actually <opposite>". Both in an apologetic tone. The word "respectfully" sounds like it's trying too hard: it's a bit overtly subordinate and ingratiating.
- dmichulke 9y agoIsn't this a (software?) engineer/developer problem? I agree developers may use "failure" or just boolean predicates ("That statement is false!") in a very exact way that may be perceived rude. But I believe that issue is orthogonal to the directness of the Dutch. Still, beware Dutch developers until we sorted this out ;-)
- mantas 9y ago> For your argument to hold, the Dutch (or Danish or Germans) should be perceived as more polite when speaking English, yet they aren't. That'd be true if they were just missing polite words in their languages. Yet the difference is in wording, not in politeness of wording. I'm no Dutch, but in my native tongue "what do you want?" is perfectly fine and polite question. Where're less polite variations too. "What would you like to order" is not unheard of. But "what can I get you?" would sound totally out of place. Meanwhile we have 2 different words for "you" - polite and not. Which is lost in translations.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- clan 9y agoNon-native speakers will either first construct sentences in their native tongue or be heavily influenced by native idioms. Just because you speak another language does not mean you assimilate the culture. The word "please" is easy to translate - but I have to remember to be more cordial and remember to use it. It does not come naturally in my own tongue. Things do get lost in translation. I absolutely loathe the amount of "sorry for your inconvenience" in each and every communication with american support staff. To my ear it sounds insincere. But I do appreciate the fact that it would sound impolite to an american user if left out. Being polite is not in the words themselves but how they're used. And to my mind that is predicated on culture.
- BrandoElFollito 9y ago> I absolutely loathe the amount of "sorry for your inconvenience" in each and every communication with american support staff. Same in France. As a French, I hate the "merci pour votre compréhension". It drives me crazy because this is such an empty sentence.
- jacquesm 9y agoIn the meantime, Dutch, Danish or Germans speaking English are doing a lot better in terms of communication in foreign tongues than their English counterparts in Dutch, Danish or German.
- pwagland 9y agoI don't think that this captures it correctly, otherwise the Dutch, for example, would be considered polite when speaking Dutch. But they aren't they basically say the same thing. The example about the hair cut from the article is a case in point. The Dutch tend to be more direct about these sorts of things.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- furyg3 9y agoTo some degree you're right, but as an American who is (now) fluent in Dutch, it is not all up to translations. The Dutch will tell each other if they don't like someone's shoes, if they should have prepared better for a meeting, if you wouldn't mind keeping it down, etc.
- donkeyd 9y agoWhat's funny though, is that this often isn't true in the workplace. I worked at Apple for a while, an American company in the Netherlands and their way of giving direct feedback was tough for a lot of people.
- Ambroos 9y agoI'm not so sure. The majority of Belgians speak Dutch and we are perceived as a lot less direct. The first example in the article, "What do you want?" or the translation in Dutch, is something you'll rarely hear in Belgium. We would use the Dutch variant of "How can I help you?" or a more polite version of "What would you like?". Belgians wouldn't dream of telling someone on the train to keep it down (we'll just stare disapprovingly and hope for the best), while the Dutch will just get up and ask someone to be quieter. And Belgians aren't as honest in communicating negative things. We usually have the bad habit of casting doubt over our own opinions before stating them. "I might be mistaken, but I think this might not work because..." is a very common thing. Many people do things like this even when they are very confident they are not mistaken. It'd surprise me if the Dutch do this.
- cr1895 9y ago"want" vs. "like", isn't it still just willen in het Nederlands? I seem to recall hearing "wat kan ik voor u doen?" or "wat willen jullie drinken?" for example. I'm still learning Dutch, but neither of those carries more or less directness or softness to me.
- Ambroos 9y agoI was going for "Wat mag het zijn?" which is something I hear a lot when going out, but is hard to translate. I thought the distinction between want and like in English conveys a similar idea.
- mpol 9y agoI can agree with this. I have translated software from English to Dutch, and when doing literal translations, things get pretty bad. Even the word of "please", which gets translated to "alsjeblieft" is quite bad in the context of software. It has an emotional burden that we don't want in Dutch, it is used when begging for a cookie. We often try to have less of those strong emotions, and that can come across as direct and rude to English speakers. It doesn't cover everything, but it does play its part.
- mpweiher 9y ago"...people have the right to say whatever they want and be as direct as they want. And if other people don’t like that, it’s their fault for getting offended." Hear hear.
- dazc 9y agoI only know 3 Dutch people. 2 are polite, intelligent, reliable and an absolute pleasure to deal with. The other is a complete asshole. Guess which of them lives by the mantra of being 'as direct as they want'?
- stevenh 9y agoI wonder if they feel the same way about you.
- boomlinde 9y agoI guess it's easy to excuse being an asshole by calling it directness, but it's really not the same thing. It's just a cheap cop-out, like how anti-vaxers would suppose themselves "freethinkers". I live in a culture where being direct is somewhat frowned upon. Not only "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything" but sometimes "if you don't have anything nice to say, make something up". People avoid confronting each other with what they think and want to the point where they'll express the exact opposite, at best adding subtle, passive-aggressive hints as to what they really mean and using irony to avoid responsibility. I guess the burden of confronting people is understood as higher than the burden of constantly having to second guess what at surface seems sincere, to a greater degree than in other, more "direct" cultures. This can be very excluding to people who didn't grow up here. People that travel here briefly will probably get the impression that we are very nice and welcoming, but if you stay here for long you'll probably find the occasional direct asshole refreshingly simple to dismiss as just that. That's not to say that being direct is inherently better than being indirect. Particularly the interpretation of "direct" that boils down to "I'll say whatever I want the moment I think of it even though I know that no one wants to hear it". But it's a misinterpretation, really. If I am a considerate person, being direct will reflect that. Before I comment on your shoes I will consider that you probably like them yourself and that it's not very important to me to express that I don't. If you asked me what I thought of them and I didn't tell you what I think, I would consider that rude.
- dtech 9y agoFrom the Dutch point of view, other cultures are just needlessly beating around the bush constantly.
- hocuspocus 9y agoNot all of them. I miss working with Finns.
- geertj 9y agoLol, yes, I always loved working with the Finns. I am Dutch myself, so pretty direct, but the Finns take it up to a different level. I remember a business meeting for which I traveled to Helsinki. After a 1 minute intro, our customer spoke uninterrupted for 20 minutes, explaining in great detail why our product completely sucked. It was very useful actually, because the feedback was factual and demonstrated a great understanding of the problem. There was no time wasting or sugarcoating.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- eggie5 9y agofrom an american in Amsterdam, i've never experienced this directness thing...
- prophet_ 9y agoGo to the huisarts (general practicioner) and chat with him/her in the same way as you would with a doctor in the US. You're going to experience the dutch directness firsthand.
- Udik 9y agoSame for me (I'm Italian). Sometimes I wonder if this directness thing isn't just a myth started by the British, for whom the norm is politeness often verging on pure and simple hypocrisy.
- prophet_ 9y agoI don't think it is necessarily hypocrisy, there are several ways to tell the truth. When one cannot be polite, soft spoken, considerate, or just lacks tact, one can always go the Dutch way. Why bother?
- Udik 9y agoI can only point you to the famous British English - rest of the world conversion table: https://bridgesandtangents.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/english1.jpg https://bridgesandtangents.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/engli...
- eggie5 9y agogood theory!
- grenoire 9y agoAmsterdam is as Dutch as Paris is French. Currently living in Amsterdam, and the experience is much different than what you get in/with people from the Hague, Utrecht, Bossem...
- circlefavshape 9y agoTo the Americans - you guys are very direct too, in my experience (compared to the Irish and English), perhaps that's why you haven't noticed it in the Netherlands?
- rb666 9y agoI think you haven't experienced Dutch directness if you think Americans are direct.
- eggie5 9y agothank you for the context
- brusch64 9y agoThat is not my experience at all (as someone coming from Austria). When working with Americans we had to sugar coat so much so noone was embarassed or we didn't step on the toes of the American workers. Maybe this was just my experience.
- bjourne 9y agoIt has been asserted by adherents to certain political groups that their voices are being suppressed by the establishment. E.g the alt right. If that is true and the article's premise is true, "Dutch people have the right to say whatever they want and be as direct as they want. And if other people don’t like that, it’s their fault for getting offended." then it must be so that open support for alt right is much stronger than in the Netherlands than in Britain. But alt right is (afaik) much stronger in Britain than in the Netherlands. It follows that Dutch people either aren't as direct as the article claims or that alt right sentiment isn't being suppressed.
- pwagland 9y agoYour argument is based on incorrect assumptions. You are assuming that the only reason for _not_ being in the alt-right, is the fear of offending someone. I would argue that this is exactly the inverse in real life. If issues are discussed openly, then you often find that you can reach a middle ground through discussion. The second premise is also incorrect, since there _is_ a large alt-right faction in the Netherlands. To all intents and purposes the second largest political party is an alt-right party.
- jules 9y agoOr that repression of alt-right views is actually counterproductive.
- TheCoelacanth 9y agoPerhaps alt-right views are expressed less frequently in the Netherlands because people aren't afraid to call someone who expresses those views a fucking moron unlike Britain where they are.
- tdons 9y ago> We chose our seats and waited, but the waiter was nowhere to be seen. > When he finally materialised, seemingly out of nowhere, he didn’t ask ‘What would you like to order’, or ‘What can I get you?’. > He said ‘What do you want?’. > Maybe it was the fact that he’d said it in English, or maybe he was just having a bad day, but I was shocked nonetheless. This is a direct translation of the Dutch "wat wilt u hebben?" which is in fact rather polite. The above anecdote is just a case of a waiter who hasn't yet learned the nuances of English ("What do you want?" is something you'd say to someone bothering you) > “I think the Netherlands are a place where… no-one is going to pretend. > [For example], when you say something in a business meeting that is not a very smart suggestion, people will always point it out,” he said. I'd say this is true. > “You don’t talk too loudly on the train because it’s not too nice for the people in your compartment; you don’t play your music too loud in your apartment because it’s not so nice for your neighbours; there is this constant calibrating of your own behaviour,” Coates explained. > But in the Netherlands, there is “the sense that people have the right to say whatever they want and be as direct as they want. And if other people don’t like that, it’s their fault for getting offended.” This paragraph conflates being a decent and considerate human being with being direct. We (the Dutch) could do the former better, there's no excuse for being loud or noisy on a train and it has nothing to do with being direct. > “You sit in a restaurant with a friend and they will happily, in a room full of strangers, talk quite loudly about their medical problems or their parents’ divorce or their love life. > They see no reason to keep it a secret.” I'd say this is true, I do this. I don't care what people around me think about me (but I do go out of my way not to inconvenience people. > But Breukel disagrees with the premise that the Dutch don’t have taboo topics. > “We don’t discuss salaries, we don’t discuss pensions. Might be a generational thing, I do discuss this.
- photonios 9y agoA better example of directness in trains is the fact that people will come tell you to shut up when you're in the silent part of the train (the "stilte coupe"). I've noticed that in other cultures, people would silently judge people who violate that rule. In the Netherlands it happens more often than not that somebody will go tell a person to have another good look at the sign and shut up.
- bkor 9y ago> My Dutch teacher later explained that the Dutch are very direct – and nowhere are they so direct as they are in Amsterdam. That's weird, I always hear that people in Rotterdam are the most direct ones within Netherlands. It's funny to read this article where someone gives an example that instead of giving loads of reasons to see a doctor you should ask to see a doctor. To me it's entirely strange you don't just ask for it. It comes across as being not too bright (why don't you conclude this yourself instead of talking endlessly about it with me). I work with Danish people, they're pretty direct as well. It quite frustrates me if there's some issue and someone keeps on complaining/discussing with random people instead of raising it with the person who has the ability to make a change. I highly appreciate my style of working. I've worked with people from all over the world and likely annoyed quite a few of them. That said, usually once they grasp that they can tell me things straightforwardly they tend to appreciate it.
- aerique 9y agoIn Rotterdam and The Hague they're probably more direct, but the people in Amsterdam are just better at PR and marketing themselves :-)
- dddw 9y agoLived in both. Rotterdam and in lesser extend The Hague are more direct, but tend to be more playful and humorist in social conversations. Whereas Amsterdam people can be downright blunt. (real life) Example: Me entering a tram in Amsterdam asking conductor: I need to go to this square... Amsterdam Conductor: yeah so?? Me entering a tram in Rotterdam asking conductor: I need to go to this square... Rotterdam Conductor: I'm not sure if you really should go there.
- neor 9y ago"and nowhere are they so direct as they are in Amsterdam" Rotterdam is a lot more direct than Amsterdam.
- Tade0 9y agoBreukel advised me to start with the subject – for example, ‘I would like an appointment’ – instead of listing all the reasons why I should see the doctor. Interesting, because that's how it's expected to be done where I come from(Poland). Even "better" - the person on the other end will often interrupt you with a follow-up question to the the statement you hesitated to say.
- lukasm 9y agoIt's not Dutch that are direct. It's Brits that are indirect. As one lad from England told me: "If you cycle to work, forget to shower and stinks, no one would say anything to you, but they would report you to the manager :)"
- detritus 9y agoBrit here — I've twice in my career encountered this, once as a youngling, once as a director — both times were broached directly and covertly with the ..er.. offending parties. I'm from the North, if that makes any difference. I do tend to view Southerners as generally a bit less direct.
- Fnoord 9y ago(TL;DR: "And although I may complain about Dutch directness, I’m grateful to live in a country that allows me to be just that." You're living in Amsterdam [1], not The Netherlands.) I am from The Netherlands and I'd say this article paints a bit rose-tinted glasses plus anecdotal evidence so allow me to present a can of nuances. For example, the directness phenomenon isn't as widespread as it is everywhere in The Netherlands. I'm originally from the more rural south (a Catholic area) and its very much different than where I live now (Amsterdam Area). South is more.. "Burgundian" and less direct. Both have their charms but its annoying when outsiders equal Amsterdam or (big cities in) Holland with The Netherlands. An example where directness backfires: when I go to a restaurant in Germany or when I get my train ticket checked in Germany I feel treated more like a gentleman. Service is flat out better over there. I'd suggest to consider this to be attributed to "Deutsche Gründlichkeit" but I'm not so arrogant to assume there are no other possible reasons. Anthropology is rather complex... Another example of rose-tinted glasses is "Many of the older houses in the Netherlands have big windows, allowing visitors – if they so wish – to peep inside." everywhere I look there's tools used to close the windows be it small or large. And they're often used. Another typical thing in The Netherlands is that gardens are walled to denote which part is who's. Or this one: "The Netherlands is unique in the way it treats topics such as prostitution, drugs and euthanasia." Perhaps the 3 of them as a package, but Christian CDA made mushrooms illegal in the '00s, coffeeshops are getting closed and are not allowed to be too close to schools (good luck with dense areas), and the Red Light District is less red nowadays. A country like Portugal also has decriminalized drugs. Euthenasia is also getting adopted more often in other countries (let us not forget Belgium and Canada [2]), and btw it has very strict rules in The Netherlands. The Christians dislike it as well. "Proverbs such as ‘Doe maar normaal, dan ben je al gek genoeg’ (just be normal, that’s already crazy enough) or ‘Stek je hoofd niet boven het maaiveld uit’ (don’t put your head above the ground) are there to remind us that we are all the same." These stem very much from Calvinism. Leo Blokhuis made a 8 part series "Achter De Dijken" about Calvinism in The Netherlands [3]. I found it very good. It is in Dutch and probably geolocked to be only available for Dutch IPs, but series like these should work over VPN or be available on Usenet. Also, other public broadcast television might've bought the rights and provided translation, I don't know. Maybe it is even possible to suggest it to your public broadcast TV station? Even that series, however, is a caricature/generalisation. [1] Or as others provided with nuance: "a big city in Holland" [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_euthanasia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_euthanasia [3] https://www.kro-ncrv.nl/achterdedijken https://www.kro-ncrv.nl/achterdedijken
- mrarjen 9y agoThe people I have offended this way is crazy... it's not meant as an insult, but as the article states "what do you want" is already shocking, so just imagine if anything more direct is asked. :(
- Smaug123 9y agoIf you're looking for advice here, most people will be much more forgiving if you open with something like "I'm afraid this isn't my first language, forgive me if I get things wrong", delivered with a sunny smile, as one of the first things you say. (I'm a Brit; this is intended for speaking to Brits.)
- imartin2k 9y agoAs a German, I wonder if the Dutch beat us in regards to directness. Anyone can compare? I’ve actually never been to the Netherlands.
- clu3l355 9y agoI feel the Dutch are a lot more casual about it and less grumpy. Germans are direct when unhappy about something ("don't be so loud", "get your feet of the seats"), but are much more likely to stare disapprovingly. Dutch are also more direct when talking about themselves/their feelings - you would never hear a German say "my new haircut looks great"
- imartin2k 9y agoInteresting, thanks!
- dddw 9y agoyeah and the Dutch are over 'the war', whereas I doubt the Germans ever will. Dutch have total apathy for privacy, the Germans however are very conscious about it because of Stasi history.
- mcv 9y agoIt's not entirely true that the Dutch are always honest and direct. I think that the real key to Dutch etiquette is efficiency. If it makes things go faster, it's good. You hold a door open for someone (irrespective of gender) only if it's efficient for both of you to do so. Directness is more efficient than beating around the bush, honesty is more efficient than a comfortable lie when it concerns an issue that's going to have to be dealt with at some point. Picking fights with people is not efficient. That's a waste of everybody's time. > when you say something in a business meeting that is not a very smart suggestion, people will always point it out,” he said. Because it's inefficient to waste time on a stupid idea. > “You don’t talk too loudly on the train because it’s not too nice for the people in your compartment; you don’t > play your music too loud in your apartment because it’s not so nice for your neighbours; there is this constant > calibrating of your own behaviour,” Coates explained. But in the Netherlands, there is “the sense that people > have the right to say whatever they want and be as direct as they want. And if other people don’t like that, > it’s their fault for getting offended.” I disagree. Most Dutch also don't talk loudly on the train. In fact, the Dutch are pretty good at minding their own business and ignoring whatever other people are doing. Bothering other people with your business is wasting their time. Of course jerks exist, but excessive noise is usually not appreciated. > One time, I found myself at the supermarket staring with disbelief at the groceries that had spilled out of my > hands onto the floor. Within seconds, I was surrounded by no fewer than 10 Dutch people, all of them giving me > advice on what to do. But not one lifted a finger. To me, the situation was obvious: I needed help immediately. > But the Dutch saw it differently: unless I specifically asked for help, it probably wasn’t necessary. This may actually be a case of politeness. Maybe you've got everything under control and are perfectly capable of picking up your own things. If not, people stand ready to help, but if you don't ask, they will assume you don't need help. They don't want to intrude on your business unasked. Unless it becomes obvious that you do need help (but the Bystander Effect can be strong). > “Calvinism dictated the individual responsibility for moral salvage from the sinful world through introspection, > total honesty, soberness, rejection of ‘pleasure’ as well as the ‘enjoyment’ of wealth,” Yet the Dutch do like to relax and enjoy themselves. We're world champions at part-time work, and hate the 50-hour weeks that Americans too often work. In fact, I don't think any country in Europe works less hours per year than we do. We don't want to waste time on silly nonsense, unless it's silly nonsense that we enjoy. Though if there's one taboo, it's definitely conspicuous displays of wealth. Millionaires better pretend they're normal people like the rest of us. We've always been a very egalitarian society. Even in the 18th century, our transport network of river barges transported all passengers in the same cabin, whether they were nobility or peasants. > This straightforwardness is so intrinsic in Dutch society that there’s even a Dutch word for it: > bespreekbaarheid (speakability) – that everything can and should be talked about; there are no taboo topics. Not entirely. A topic can be "bespreekbaar", but it's technically also possible for a topic to be "onbespreekbaar": not up for discussion. Usually, people tend to want to make things "bespreekbaar", because that enables honest discussion and more efficient sharing of information, but there are exceptions. > Many of the older houses in the Netherlands have big windows, allowing visitors – if they so wish – to peep inside. But it's rude if you actually do it. Many houses do have curtains to create privacy, but even if they don't, it's not okay to go peeping into other people's windows. That's intruding on other people's business again. > “You sit in a restaurant with a friend and they will happily, in a room full of strangers, talk quite > loudly about their medical problems or their parents’ divorce or their love life. They see no reason to > keep it a secret.” If it's something they want to discuss. If the topic needs to be addressed for whatever reason, they address it. > “We don’t discuss salaries, we don’t discuss pensions. Anything to do with luxury. We don’t talk about how > beautiful our house is. We don’t discuss how big our car is,” Not quite. Conspicuous displays of wealth are not done. Showing off a nice house is totally fine, as long as you don't present it as evidence you're better than others. Salaries used to be taboo, because differences in pay smell of class differences, but that's changing, because clearly salary negotiations are more efficient if you know what your coworkers get.
- zemanel 9y agoI moved to the Netherlands from the UK (where nothing happens without someone saying “please” or “are you sure ?” at least two times) year ago. Dutch directnesss was something that would freeze the blood in my veins at first but after getting the hang of it, i’ve come to enjoy it (they can be direct but another good thing is you can be direct back), because if they don’t have patience for BS, neither do i.