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You can exchange USDT for fiat, on demand, for exactly 1 USD/USDT, but only at Bitfinex. For bank wires, they charge a .1% fee, so technically I guess 0.999 US

You can exchange USDT for fiat, on demand, for exactly 1 USD/USDT, but only at Bitfinex. For bank wires, they charge a .1% fee, so technically I guess 0.999 USD for each 1 USDT. For verified customers, there is no withdrawal limit. Kraken offers a USD/USDT market that allows you to obtain fiat for your USDT, and the price stays fairly stable but the liquidity is low (thus slippage is high). It's currently trading at a discount; you could sell ~1M USDT for ~954k there. Kraken's withdrawal limits are way more severe than Bitfinex's, though, so it would take some time to get all of that out.

spookthesunset 9y ago
> You can exchange USDT for fiat, on demand, for exactly 1 USD/USDT, but only at Bitfinex My understanding is this isn't the case. My understanding is Bitfinex will take your USD and convert to USDT which you can then use to buy crypto. But it won't take your USDT and turn it back into dollars. In fact, my understanding is the only way to turn USDT back into USD is either directly through Kraken or indirectly through another exchange by going USDT -> BTC (or ETH/DOGE/whatever) -> USD. Bitfinex lost the ability to bank in USD a while ago, which is how this whole tether business was invented in the first place.
- andrewla 9y ago
  As a US citizen, I can no longer access Bitfinex. My personal experience, when I could, is that you are never exposed to USDT on the site at all except as an option to transfer your deposited USD to another exchange via tether. They may have changed that, but I don’t know. As for withdrawing, you can’t withdraw to the US any more, but you can still make international USD wires to banks in other jurisdictions, specifically Taiwan and Hong Kong. I have not heard anything contradicting this, and have seen a fair bit confirming it.
  - spookthesunset 9y ago
    > My personal experience, when I could, is that you are never exposed to USDT on the site at all except as an option to transfer your deposited USD to another exchange via tether. One exciting "feature" of all this is that most tickers that price out crypto currency values treat USD and USDT as one and the same. I've yet to see Bitfinex, for example, show up on a ticker as "BTC / USDT" (which is what, in fact, the pairing is). It worries me because people use these things to inform their "investment" decisions and my hunch is most of the data they use is not quite on the up & up.
    - andrewla 9y ago
      There are exchanges (a lot of them, actually) that list USDT as part of a trading pair. Bitfinex, as I understand it, allows withdrawals in USD (modulo the restrictions above). From an end-user perspective, the only time you ever deal with tether is when you make a tether transfer. They are correct in not treating the on-exchange trading pair as BTC/USDT. Just as when you deposit on any exchange, for example, Kraken, you don't have "USD" per se, you just have "Kraken USD credits" which you can withdraw, subject to their limitations, via wire transfer. Also, when you deposit your USD in Chase Bank, you don't have USD, you have "Chase USD credits" which you can withdraw, subject to their limitations, on demand. In all cases you are dependent on the solvency of the institution, which is what is in question here. But Bitfinex is correct in not saying that you are buying or selling USDT -- you are trading with USD, regardless of what internal accounting practices they use to ensure that they are solvent.
      - spookthesunset 9y ago
        > Also, when you deposit your USD in Chase Bank, you don't have USD, you have "Chase USD credits" which you can withdraw, subject to their limitations, on demand. No, I have USD in my account when I deposit to Chase. I can go to Chase and say "give me my fucking money" and they'll give me sweet cold, hard dirty fiat dollars with, in general, no questions asked. I deposited in dollars, my account balance is denoted in dollars, my withdrawals in dollars. 1 USD == 1 USD. All of these Bitcoin exchanges.... ...... maybe you can do that but good luck..... maybe????? Unlike a real bank, your "Bitfinex Credit" is actually backed by USDT, not USD. When you go to Bitfinex and say "Give me my fucking money in USD", they'll laugh and point out that you never had USD, you bought something called tether which is. Tether being, of course, the space-age crypto currency that is pegged to the USD using ...$methods.... and has, according to their marketing website, been subjected to "multiple professional audits" (cough). So what you see on all these ticker sites is a bunch of USDT that is silently folded into the USD marketcap and pricing models people use to make their decisions. All of it assuming USDT is actually legit. If USDT goes south, it is going to fuck over the entire crypto market because almost everything there is now completely mispriced. Worse, there is allegations that USDT was being used to drive up and maintain the current crypto prices... if that is true, crypto is double-fucked because even the underlying valuations are bullshit. > Bitfinex, as I understand it, allows withdrawals in USD (modulo the restrictions above). Show me an average joe retail "investor" who has been able to successfully withdraw USD from Bitfinex. People have been asking for that person to stand up and raise their hand for months. Crickets is all you get in response.
- gruez 9y ago
  > But it won't take your USDT and turn it back into dollars. that's... unlikely. mainly because if that were true, nobody would want to sell anything at bitfinex, and cryptocurrency prices there would skyrocket. this happened at mtgox when they halted withdraws, BTC prices skyrocketed there.
  - spookthesunset 9y ago
    Has anybody here on HN been able to go $ANYTHING -> USD on Bitfinex? I haven't seen anybody anywhere claim they've gotten USD out of Bitfinex...
    - gruez 9y ago
      I'd like to verify that myself; I even made a bitfinex account (with vpn). But the withdraw USD option (both wire and USDT) are disabled unless you can verify your account.
    - andrewla 9y ago
      Search around on the Bitfinex subreddit. For example: https://www.reddit.com/r/bitfinex/comments/7rbfca/ticket_636454_usd_withdrawal_not_credited_to_bank/?st=JD2AT952&sh=32c890a4 https://www.reddit.com/r/bitfinex/comments/7rbfca/ticket_636... The thread here is about Bitfinex not writing money, but on the thread a couple of similar issues get resolved. Could be shills or Bitfinex oiling squeaky wheels. I too would love to see someone here on hn post about their experiences, though.
      - spookthesunset 9y ago
        > Could be shills or Bitfinex oiling squeaky wheels. I too would love to see someone here on hn post about their experiences, though. Completely agree. You'd think with the reach of this place, you'd get a couple people who have done it.
  - jpatokal 9y ago
    Yes, that's exactly what many people think is going to happen, and in fact there's already a small but persistent spread in BTC prices between exchanges that price them in USDT (like Bitfinex) and those that use actual USD (like GDAX).
- darawk 9y ago
  No, you can convert USDT directly to USD. However, Bitfinex can only wire you that USD to a Taiwanese bank account. I can't verify that they actually will wire it, but this is what they claim. And I assume if they were refusing to make these wires to people who had Taiwanese bank accounts, people would be pointing it out.
  - thinkmoore 9y ago
    My understanding is that their terms of service say that they have no legal obligation to do so, regardless of where you have a bank account...
    - darawk 9y ago
      That's correct. However, in practice, they do do it.
      - spookthesunset 9y ago
        > However, in practice, they do do it. Anybody been able to actually withdraw cold, hard fiat dollars from tether or bitfinex? Show of hands please? .... crickets ....
    - spookthesunset 9y ago
      Actually, it looks like sometime in the past few weeks Tether changed their terms to say they do let you redeem your USDT: "About Tether Tokens; General Restrictions: Tether issues and redeems Tether Tokens. Tether Tokens may be used, kept, or exchanged online wherever parties are willing to accept Tether Tokens. Tether Tokens are fully backed by the currency or property used to purchase them at issuance. Tether Tokens are denominated in a range of currencies. For example, if you purchase EURT, your Tethers are fully backed by Euros. If you cause to be issued EURT 100.00, Tether holds €100.00 to back those Tether Tokens. The range of currencies available to denominate Tether Tokens is within the sole control and at the sole and absolute discretion of Tether. Tether Tokens are backed by money, but they are not money themselves. Tether will not issue Tether Tokens for consideration that is other Digital Tokens (for example, bitcoin), and will not redeem Tether Tokens for other Digital Tokens; only money will be accepted upon issuance, and only money will be provided upon redemption.In order to cause Tether Tokens to be issued or redeemed by Tether, you must be a verified customer of Tether. No exceptions will be made to this provision. " (all typos and spacing are theirs. This change looks very hastily put together and quite sketchy) https://tether.to/legal/ https://tether.to/legal/ It used to say some stuff about how USDT isn't actually redeemable, etc...
- seppel 9y ago
  > My understanding is Bitfinex will take your USD and convert to USDT which you can then use to buy crypto. So, who is selling BTC for USDT and why? Who is selling so many BTCs for USDT that they have to print 100 million USDT every other week? I'd really like to understand that (see also my parallel discussion).
  - throwaway90887 9y ago
    To safely "park" your crypto assets when it tanks in price. Many exchanges offer tether as a trading currency instead of fiat, to avoid regulatory hurdles.

spookthesunset 9y ago

> You can exchange USDT for fiat, on demand, for exactly 1 USD/USDT, but only at Bitfinex My understanding is this isn't the case. My understanding is Bitfinex will take your USD and convert to USDT which you can then use to buy crypto. But it won't take your USDT and turn it back into dollars. In fact, my understanding is the only way to turn USDT back into USD is either directly through Kraken or indirectly through another exchange by going USDT -> BTC (or ETH/DOGE/whatever) -> USD. Bitfinex lost the ability to bank in USD a while ago, which is how this whole tether business was invented in the first place.

andrewla 9y ago
As a US citizen, I can no longer access Bitfinex. My personal experience, when I could, is that you are never exposed to USDT on the site at all except as an option to transfer your deposited USD to another exchange via tether. They may have changed that, but I don’t know. As for withdrawing, you can’t withdraw to the US any more, but you can still make international USD wires to banks in other jurisdictions, specifically Taiwan and Hong Kong. I have not heard anything contradicting this, and have seen a fair bit confirming it.
- spookthesunset 9y ago
  > My personal experience, when I could, is that you are never exposed to USDT on the site at all except as an option to transfer your deposited USD to another exchange via tether. One exciting "feature" of all this is that most tickers that price out crypto currency values treat USD and USDT as one and the same. I've yet to see Bitfinex, for example, show up on a ticker as "BTC / USDT" (which is what, in fact, the pairing is). It worries me because people use these things to inform their "investment" decisions and my hunch is most of the data they use is not quite on the up & up.
  - andrewla 9y ago
    There are exchanges (a lot of them, actually) that list USDT as part of a trading pair. Bitfinex, as I understand it, allows withdrawals in USD (modulo the restrictions above). From an end-user perspective, the only time you ever deal with tether is when you make a tether transfer. They are correct in not treating the on-exchange trading pair as BTC/USDT. Just as when you deposit on any exchange, for example, Kraken, you don't have "USD" per se, you just have "Kraken USD credits" which you can withdraw, subject to their limitations, via wire transfer. Also, when you deposit your USD in Chase Bank, you don't have USD, you have "Chase USD credits" which you can withdraw, subject to their limitations, on demand. In all cases you are dependent on the solvency of the institution, which is what is in question here. But Bitfinex is correct in not saying that you are buying or selling USDT -- you are trading with USD, regardless of what internal accounting practices they use to ensure that they are solvent.
    - spookthesunset 9y ago
      > Also, when you deposit your USD in Chase Bank, you don't have USD, you have "Chase USD credits" which you can withdraw, subject to their limitations, on demand. No, I have USD in my account when I deposit to Chase. I can go to Chase and say "give me my fucking money" and they'll give me sweet cold, hard dirty fiat dollars with, in general, no questions asked. I deposited in dollars, my account balance is denoted in dollars, my withdrawals in dollars. 1 USD == 1 USD. All of these Bitcoin exchanges.... ...... maybe you can do that but good luck..... maybe????? Unlike a real bank, your "Bitfinex Credit" is actually backed by USDT, not USD. When you go to Bitfinex and say "Give me my fucking money in USD", they'll laugh and point out that you never had USD, you bought something called tether which is. Tether being, of course, the space-age crypto currency that is pegged to the USD using ...$methods.... and has, according to their marketing website, been subjected to "multiple professional audits" (cough). So what you see on all these ticker sites is a bunch of USDT that is silently folded into the USD marketcap and pricing models people use to make their decisions. All of it assuming USDT is actually legit. If USDT goes south, it is going to fuck over the entire crypto market because almost everything there is now completely mispriced. Worse, there is allegations that USDT was being used to drive up and maintain the current crypto prices... if that is true, crypto is double-fucked because even the underlying valuations are bullshit. > Bitfinex, as I understand it, allows withdrawals in USD (modulo the restrictions above). Show me an average joe retail "investor" who has been able to successfully withdraw USD from Bitfinex. People have been asking for that person to stand up and raise their hand for months. Crickets is all you get in response.
gruez 9y ago
> But it won't take your USDT and turn it back into dollars. that's... unlikely. mainly because if that were true, nobody would want to sell anything at bitfinex, and cryptocurrency prices there would skyrocket. this happened at mtgox when they halted withdraws, BTC prices skyrocketed there.
- spookthesunset 9y ago
  Has anybody here on HN been able to go $ANYTHING -> USD on Bitfinex? I haven't seen anybody anywhere claim they've gotten USD out of Bitfinex...
  - gruez 9y ago
    I'd like to verify that myself; I even made a bitfinex account (with vpn). But the withdraw USD option (both wire and USDT) are disabled unless you can verify your account.
  - andrewla 9y ago
    Search around on the Bitfinex subreddit. For example: https://www.reddit.com/r/bitfinex/comments/7rbfca/ticket_636454_usd_withdrawal_not_credited_to_bank/?st=JD2AT952&sh=32c890a4 https://www.reddit.com/r/bitfinex/comments/7rbfca/ticket_636... The thread here is about Bitfinex not writing money, but on the thread a couple of similar issues get resolved. Could be shills or Bitfinex oiling squeaky wheels. I too would love to see someone here on hn post about their experiences, though.
    - spookthesunset 9y ago
      > Could be shills or Bitfinex oiling squeaky wheels. I too would love to see someone here on hn post about their experiences, though. Completely agree. You'd think with the reach of this place, you'd get a couple people who have done it.
- jpatokal 9y ago
  Yes, that's exactly what many people think is going to happen, and in fact there's already a small but persistent spread in BTC prices between exchanges that price them in USDT (like Bitfinex) and those that use actual USD (like GDAX).
darawk 9y ago
No, you can convert USDT directly to USD. However, Bitfinex can only wire you that USD to a Taiwanese bank account. I can't verify that they actually will wire it, but this is what they claim. And I assume if they were refusing to make these wires to people who had Taiwanese bank accounts, people would be pointing it out.
- thinkmoore 9y ago
  My understanding is that their terms of service say that they have no legal obligation to do so, regardless of where you have a bank account...
  - darawk 9y ago
    That's correct. However, in practice, they do do it.
    - spookthesunset 9y ago
      > However, in practice, they do do it. Anybody been able to actually withdraw cold, hard fiat dollars from tether or bitfinex? Show of hands please? .... crickets ....
  - spookthesunset 9y ago
    Actually, it looks like sometime in the past few weeks Tether changed their terms to say they do let you redeem your USDT: "About Tether Tokens; General Restrictions: Tether issues and redeems Tether Tokens. Tether Tokens may be used, kept, or exchanged online wherever parties are willing to accept Tether Tokens. Tether Tokens are fully backed by the currency or property used to purchase them at issuance. Tether Tokens are denominated in a range of currencies. For example, if you purchase EURT, your Tethers are fully backed by Euros. If you cause to be issued EURT 100.00, Tether holds €100.00 to back those Tether Tokens. The range of currencies available to denominate Tether Tokens is within the sole control and at the sole and absolute discretion of Tether. Tether Tokens are backed by money, but they are not money themselves. Tether will not issue Tether Tokens for consideration that is other Digital Tokens (for example, bitcoin), and will not redeem Tether Tokens for other Digital Tokens; only money will be accepted upon issuance, and only money will be provided upon redemption.In order to cause Tether Tokens to be issued or redeemed by Tether, you must be a verified customer of Tether. No exceptions will be made to this provision. " (all typos and spacing are theirs. This change looks very hastily put together and quite sketchy) https://tether.to/legal/ https://tether.to/legal/ It used to say some stuff about how USDT isn't actually redeemable, etc...
seppel 9y ago
> My understanding is Bitfinex will take your USD and convert to USDT which you can then use to buy crypto. So, who is selling BTC for USDT and why? Who is selling so many BTCs for USDT that they have to print 100 million USDT every other week? I'd really like to understand that (see also my parallel discussion).
- throwaway90887 9y ago
  To safely "park" your crypto assets when it tanks in price. Many exchanges offer tether as a trading currency instead of fiat, to avoid regulatory hurdles.